VFR - cleared into Bravo at or below

N801BH said:
And the reason the VFR traffic is "unverified" is because ATC didn't let the VFR traffic play in their sandbox.
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Right. If ATC had cleared him into Class B airspace at GRITT for his turns about a point everything would have been fine.

My question is............... What is the minimum distance landing IFR traffic has to clear any surrounding traffic.
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There are no separation standards between IFR and VFR aircraft for Class E airspace.
 
roncachamp said:
In that airspace I'd be tasked with providing that overflying IFR aircraft with traffic advisories of the observed target and a safety alert if warranted and that's what I would do. It doesn't matter if the VFR target is showing 3000, 2500, or 2000. The overflying IFR aircraft is going to get a traffic advisory because the Mode C display of the VFR target is unverified.
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So if a VFR aircraft were at 2980 MSL at GRITT, once the advisories and/or safety alert were issued, it sounds like it would be up to an IFR aircraft on the ILS and the VFR aircraft 20 feet below to provide their own separation.

Personally, I don't like forcing an aircraft on an instrument approach to maneuver if I don't have to. And then of course I would prefer to avoid wake turbulence as well.

Question for anyone: When in level flight and crossing the path of an airliner, how much vertical separation is required to avoid triggering an RA?
 
alfadog said:
Their happiness is a concern to me partly because I consider air traffic controllers to be one of my partners in my GA thing. I have no problem helping out my partners just on that basis. But it goes beyond that. Their request seems logical and based on safety concerns like keeping me away from wake turbulence. I routinely fly directly under GRITT (see prior post) so that is a concern, especially if I am not talking to them.
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Makes sense to me.

One time when I was using a GPS to fly directly home to Palo Alto Airport, I noticed that I was on the most-used localizer course to San Jose International, and that continuing to follow the magenta line would keep me on or near it for a while. I was in class E airspace, so it was perfectly legal, and I wasn't talking to anyone, but since I don't like making life difficult for people when I don't have to, I side-stepped a couple of miles.

From a purely self-interest point of view, it's to my advantage to avoid making controllers unhappy if I don't have to, because I may unexpectedly find that I need something from them. For example, when coming home to the SF Bay area VFR in the evening, I never know for sure that I won't need an IFR pop-up clearance to get in. The forecasts here are not always good enough to predict that. So besides avoiding the distraction factor that I mentioned in another post, if I'm talking to ATC, I comply with the instructions they give me, and don't waste time trying to figure out if they comply with the controllers' manual.
 
Palmpilot said:
Makes sense to me.

One time when I was using a GPS to fly directly home to Palo Alto Airport, I noticed that I was on the most-used localizer course to San Jose International, and that continuing to follow the magenta line would keep me on or near it for a while. I was in class E airspace, so it was perfectly legal, and I wasn't talking to anyone, but since I don't like making life difficult for people when I don't have to, I side-stepped a couple of miles.

From a purely self-interest point of view, it's to my advantage to avoid making controllers unhappy if I don't have to, because I may unexpectedly find that I need something from them. For example, when coming home to the SF Bay area VFR in the evening, I never know for sure that I won't need an IFR pop-up clearance to get in. The forecasts here are not always good enough to predict that. So besides avoiding the distraction factor that I mentioned in another post, if I'm talking to ATC, I comply with the instructions they give me, and don't waste time trying to figure out if they comply with the controllers' manual.
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Those are good points. But sooner or later you are going to encounter a knucklehead who thinks VFR traffic shouldn't get within 10 miles of IFR traffic.

That is when it is good to know what your options are.
 
roncachamp said:
In that airspace I'd be tasked with providing that overflying IFR aircraft with traffic advisories of the observed target and a safety alert if warranted and that's what I would do. It doesn't matter if the VFR target is showing 3000, 2500, or 2000. The overflying IFR aircraft is going to get a traffic advisory because the Mode C display of the VFR target is unverified.
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Is he even going to be cleared normally for the approach, or given "Cleared for the [whatever] approach, maintain 4000 until crossing [intersection] due to VFR traffic below you."
 
Back to the question without a bunch of deviations...
ATC block cleared you with a ceiling of 6000 (including 6000)...
It is THEIR airspace and they just "otherwise authorized" you... End of discussion - but not an end to your communication...
Now acknowledge the block clearance by telling the controller which altitude you are picking in the block which will be followed by ATC 'descend and maintain xxxx and inform before changing altitude'...
Easy as pie...


The OP did not give enough information for me to decide if flying over the B was an option..
Some of the posters give me the impression that they believe if ATC turns them for traffic separation they should immediately change altitude to conform with the VFR cruising rules... Try that sometime in a busy B airspace - let me know how it turns out...
Some appear to not quite grasp the meaning of the words 'controlled airspace'...
 
roncachamp said:
Right. If ATC had cleared him into Class B airspace at GRITT for his turns about a point everything would have been fine.QUOTE]


Sir..... the' VFR turn about the point traffic' in NOT in Bravo airspace and needs no reason to talk to ANYONE..:no::no::no:..

On the other hand... The incoming IFR traffic on the ILS is participating in the ATC system and you said in an earlier post ATC is there for IFR to IFR and IFR to VFR separation... So you just sit in a dark control room at MIA approach and say over the radio.." unverified VFR traffic ahead"... be careful out there.:dunno::goofy::goofy::lol:....
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roncachamp said:
There are no separation standards between IFR and VFR aircraft for Class E airspace.
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I can state from pretty clear memory that once I called traffic 'in sight' the only thing I've heard was a caution around wake turbulence that may or may not suggest a heading that will keep me high of it.
 
My purpose in participating in this conversation was not to advocate ignoring ATC or quibbling with them or being overly assertive. I was just trying to help clarify in some people's mind exactly the relationship between ATC and VFR pilots, and what ATC does and doesn't do for them.

If you run into a bad controller he/she can put a serious dent in your wallet and actually put you in a more precarious situation for no legitimate reason.

The little characters laughing at someone's post really turns me off.
 
denverpilot said:
Is he even going to be cleared normally for the approach, or given "Cleared for the [whatever] approach, maintain 4000 until crossing [intersection] due to VFR traffic below you."
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I'd give him pilot's discretion to 3000' and advise him of the traffic when he still had plenty of time to choose a course of action.
 
N801BH said:
Sir..... the' VFR turn about the point traffic' in NOT in Bravo airspace and needs no reason to talk to ANYONE.
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Correct. You wrote, "And the reason the VFR traffic is 'unverified' is because ATC didn't let the VFR traffic play in their sandbox." The only "sandbox" the controller can deny to the VFR aircraft is the Class B airspace.

On the other hand... The incoming IFR traffic on the ILS is participating in the ATC system and you said in an earlier post ATC is there for IFR to IFR and IFR to VFR separation... So you just sit in a dark control room at MIA approach and say over the radio.." unverified VFR traffic ahead"... be careful out there.
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I said earlier that IFR to VFR separation is a Class C service, I don't think you'll find any Class C airspace near GRITT.
 
kimberlyanne546 said:
They did at one point ask me "are you familiar with the ____ airspace" and I said (again, plain English), "No, this is my first time flying through this area." That was not a lie, I have never been down below SJC as a PIC.
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Perfect ... also, don't be afraid to ask them for a vector or a heading if they need you somewhere that you can't locate immeditealy on sectional.
 
danhagan said:
Perfect ... also, don't be afraid to ask them for a vector or a heading if they need you somewhere that you can't locate immeditealy on sectional.
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That is what I told them at one point. I pretty much said - LOOK, IF YOU WANT ME TO FLY SOMEWHERE OTHER THAN MY FLIGHT PLAN (THE ONE ON MY LAP) I WILL NEED HEADINGS AND ALTITUDES.
 
I think Dan was referring to an 'initial' heading while he locates whatever nav aid on his chart.
 
kimberlyanne546 said:
That is what I told them at one point. I pretty much said - LOOK, IF YOU WANT ME TO FLY SOMEWHERE OTHER THAN MY FLIGHT PLAN (THE ONE ON MY LAP) I WILL NEED HEADINGS AND ALTITUDES.
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That's a mark of a good PIC, IMO. You told them the situation, and you told them what you needed.
 
kimberlyanne546 said:
That is what I told them at one point. I pretty much said - LOOK, IF YOU WANT ME TO FLY SOMEWHERE OTHER THAN MY FLIGHT PLAN (THE ONE ON MY LAP) I WILL NEED HEADINGS AND ALTITUDES.
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You done good. I was training a young lady for her ATP and set up a situation that required a lot of frequency changing, both navigation and communication, to see how she would handle it. As the situation got tight she asked the controller for "delay vectors." Right then I knew that she was a winner. Later on she flew cargo DC-10's.

Bob Gardner
 
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Captain said:
I think Dan was referring to an 'initial' heading while he locates whatever nav aid on his chart.
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Have done that, but once got a remain west of "so-and-so" mountain near Tuscon. I could NOT find it on the sectional, turned out it was a locals landmark and calling it a "hill" would be a stretch.

In my area, if you look a little left of KELP on the sectional you'll see a remark "Stacks 4600" ... El Paso Approach will tell everyone to indicate when abeam "ASARCO" which is the name of the company that owns those stacks (it's also written on one of them vertically). Also, one has been demolished and believe it is a single stack now. It does not say "ASARCO" on the sectional. This catches transients all the time in my area.
 
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Yeah, if I was told to report abeam ASARCO (or any other point I didn't know) I'd just come back with, "unfamiliar". Someone suggested that above and it's great advise. I probably use that term once a tour or so.
 
danhagan said:
Have done that, but once got a remain west of "so-and-so" mountain near Tuscon. I could NOT find it on the sectional, turned out it was a locals landmark and calling it a "hill" would be a stretch.

In my area, if you look a little left of KELP on the sectional you'll see a remark "Stacks 4600" ... El Paso Approach will tell everyone to indicate when abeam "ASARCO" which is the name of the company that owns those stacks (it's also written on one of them vertically). Also, one has been demolished and believe it is a single stack now. It does not say "ASARCO" on the sectional. This catches transients all the time in my area.
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Here's my 'missing landmark" episode... On my first visit to Airventure / OSH I studied the NOTAM for weeks and had all the little details memorized... I had stopped at Madison SD for the night and left at 0 dark thirty.... I also had placed a ghost waypoint about 3 SW of Ripon... Got to it, turns left 10 degrees and there were the grain silos and the RR tracks.. Boy was I feeling a sense of acompolishment...decended to 1800 feet and kept my head on a swivel looking for other traffic.... flew down the track toward Fisk and I remembered reading the NOTAM and it clearly said there would be white arrows painted on the tracks .. flew on a bit... NO ARROWS:yikes:... Flew some more... NO ARROWS:hairraise::hairraise:.. At this stage I started to second guess my location... I flew some more and still no arrows.. but I could see OSH ahead about 15 miles and a lake beyond so I figured this had to the be Ripon /Fisk approach... Finally the radio lit up with " Zenith, rock your wings.".... Now I know there is supposed to be radio silence from aircraft but I admit I blurted out.. "Where are the arrows ".. that was followed by laughter from the Fisk crew... he told me the guys that were sent to get the Lime to make the arrows had over slept.:mad2: :( ... they sent me on to the quarry and I joined the right downwind to 27 and hit the green dot perfectly......

Now back to your regularly scheduled thread of Cleared into the Bravo..:goofy:
 
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