VFR - cleared into Bravo at or below

[alfadog]

I think the subject of this thread is they didn't have authority to change your flight plan in the first place. Provided you remain clear of B airspace, you can pretty much do what you want. I think that's the consensus???

Yes

 

[vintage cessna]

Personally, I really don't care all that much if a controller deviates from JO 7110.65 unless the specific instruction given compromises safety.

If you are flying VFR below a 3000 ft shelf and a controller instructs you to maintain at or below 2000 , you can rest assured that controller doesn't care too much about your safety.

 

[danhagan]

Once again, proof of how much I learn by going on XC's. They are a great experience.

If you're on a long XC Kim, and first time there, don't be afraid to state "unfamiliar with the area." Our controllers often want eastbound traffic to report a smoke stack (ASARCO) that is simple to see for locals, but may not be for transients.

 

[Henning]

I think the subject of this thread is they didn't have authority to change your flight plan in the first place. Provided you remain clear of B airspace, you can pretty much do what you want. I think that's the consensus???

Most definitely. It's like this, with the exception of the C outer area, if you can be there without talking to anyone, the controller has no more authority to tell you what to do if you happen to be talking to him as if you aren't. Most of the time a controller's suggestions under flight following are beneficial for the pilot, sometimes they are only to the benefit of the controller and costly to the pilot. If a controller is about to waste $30 of my fuel for no good cause I can see, it's not gonna happen. If I have a target I need to make and they are going to interfere with that, it's not gonna happen. If it's no big skin off my back, no worries, it'll happen.

 

[alfadog]

If you are flying VFR below a 3000 ft shelf and a controller instructs you to maintain at or below 2000 , you can rest assured that controller doesn't care too much about your safety.

This is over the Everglades. There is nothing below you but flat, featureless grass, a few canals, and fewer roads.

 

[Henning]

This is over the Everglades. There is nothing below you but flat, featureless grass, a few canals, and fewer roads.

and alligators, don't forget the alligators. If I ever do an Everglades tour plane it'll be named Swamp Snack...

 

[vintage cessna]

This is over the Everglades. There is nothing below you but flat, featureless grass, a few canals, and fewer roads.

You are about 900 ft lower than you need to be. If you lose your engine that is less time you have to develop and execute a plan.

 

[alfadog]

You are about 900 ft lower than you need to be. If you lose your engine that is less time you have to develop and execute a plan.

Fair enough. Like I said, what I do now is not call and fly at 2500. I know they will be happy with that and it is no big deal to me.

 

[kimberlyanne546]

If you're on a long XC Kim, and first time there, don't be afraid to state "unfamiliar with the area." Our controllers often want eastbound traffic to report a smoke stack (ASARCO) that is simple to see for locals, but may not be for transients.

They did at one point ask me "are you familiar with the ____ airspace" and I said (again, plain English), "No, this is my first time flying through this area." That was not a lie, I have never been down below SJC as a PIC.

 

[vintage cessna]

Fair enough. Like I said, what I do now is not call and fly at 2500. I know they will be happy with that and it is no big deal to me.

Why do you care if they are happy? Your tax dollars pay their salary. Sounds like the facility is being run by McHales Navy. You are better off not contacting them.

 

[kimberlyanne546]

Fair enough. Like I said, what I do now is not call and fly at 2500. I know they will be happy with that and it is no big deal to me.

I'm not sure if I feel OK "not calling". I didn't call on a recent XC to the middle of nowhere, but through the Bay Area where I was at the time it seemed to be a good idea for me to call them up.

 

[Palmpilot]

Well that's just it, No, you're not. If they have authority you HAVE to comply unless it's a safety call. If they don't have the authority there is no negotiating because you are in COMMAND.

I was using the word in the sense of telling them what you need and why you need it, i.e., trying to work out something that meets the needs of both the pilot and ATC. I didn't mean to imply that you can alway refuse an instruction absent an emergency.

 

[Palmpilot]

If you are flying VFR below a 3000 ft shelf and a controller instructs you to maintain at or below 2000 , you can rest assured that controller doesn't care too much about your safety.

I'm not interested in trying to read controllers' minds.

 

[Henning]

You are about 900 ft lower than you need to be. If you lose your engine that is less time you have to develop and execute a plan.

I just cage one and keep going.

 

[Henning]

I was using the word in the sense of telling them what you need and why you need it, i.e., trying to work out something that meets the needs of both the pilot and ATC. I didn't mean to imply that you can alway refuse an instruction absent an emergency.

She should never have had to negotiate because they should have never told her what to do.

 

[vintage cessna]

I was using the word in the sense of telling them what you need and why you need it, i.e., trying to work out something that meets the needs of both the pilot and ATC. I didn't mean to imply that you can alway refuse an instruction absent an emergency.

If all these stories I'm reading about VFR FF are true, well, I just don't know what to say. About the only communications you should hear from a controller is code, frequency and traffic calls and perhaps some wx calls. Everything else is garbage.

 

[alfadog]

If all these stories I'm reading about VFR FF are true, well, I just don't know what to say. About the only communications you should hear from a controller is code, frequency and traffic calls and perhaps some wx calls. Everything else is garbage.

To a man with a hammer, everything looks like a nail. Air traffic control.

 

[Palmpilot]

She should never have had to negotiate because they should have never told her what to do.

Fine, but what are you going to do about it?

Some people seem to want pilots to try to correct and/or educate ATC about it while airborne. That's a personal choice, and I choose not to go that route.

 

[Palmpilot]

If all these stories I'm reading about VFR FF are true, well, I just don't know what to say. About the only communications you should hear from a controller is code, frequency and traffic calls and perhaps some wx calls. Everything else is garbage.

Since Kimberly is a relatively new pilot, I didn't want to say anything misleading, so I was trying to make my comments about negotiation applicable to all airspace, not just class E.

 

[vintage cessna]

Fine, but what are you going to do about it?

Some people seem to want pilots to try to correct and/or educate ATC about it while airborne. That's a personal choice, and I choose not to go that route.

One word. "UNABLE".

 

[kimberlyanne546]

If all these stories I'm reading about VFR FF are true, well, I just don't know what to say. About the only communications you should hear from a controller is code, frequency and traffic calls and perhaps some wx calls. Everything else is garbage.

Agreed, on my flight down there it was all as expected (only a code and traffic advisories, nothing more). I did the exact same flight plan, in reverse, on my way back home (4-7 airports as waypoints for safety, direct line from one airport to the next). That is when they started asking me all these strange questions and telling me what to do. I was mad, confused, etc.... putting up with all that weather and turbulence and not being able to keep a heading or altitude for very long the last thing I wanted was a deviation to my planned route.

 

[azure]

Very interesting thread.

I'll certainly buy that if I'm VFR, a controller gives me an instruction in Class E airspace, and I respectfully tell him I'm not going to do that, the worst he can do is terminate radar advisories. But the last time I got that kind of treatment from a controller (an altitude limitation while OUTSIDE the lateral limits of the Bravo in the vicinity of KDET, but above the KDET Delta), I was en route to Ohio via the YQG VOR, which is in Canada. As required by law, I was on a flight plan and talking to ATC. That's not a very good time to have a controller tell me "radar services terminated, squawk 1200, frequency change approved." That time I really didn't care about the altitude limitation, but if they start giving me vectors to kingdom come, I'm not going to be a very happy camper. What are my options in that situation?

 

[vintage cessna]

I'm not sure if I feel OK "not calling". I didn't call on a recent XC to the middle of nowhere, but through the Bay Area where I was at the time it seemed to be a good idea for me to call them up.

Get a ZAON and a PLB, then you don't need no stinking ATC. You can always just monitor the ATC freq if it makes you feel better.

 

[Palmpilot]

One word. "UNABLE".

Feel free to use that word as you see fit. When I fly, I only use it when I feel it's really necessary. Ensuring controller compliance with 7110.65 is not one of those times.

 

[Palmpilot]

Get a ZAON and a PLB, then you don't need no stinking ATC. You can always just monitor the ATC freq if it makes you feel better.

Suppose she continues to use flight following. How do you recommend that she determine whether or not she's inside the outer area of class C airspace?

 

[vintage cessna]

Feel free to use that word as you see fit. When I fly, I only use it when I feel it's really necessary. Ensuring controller compliance with 7110.65 is not one of those times.

I've only used that word twice when VFR, and I didn't use it to ensure controller compliance with the 7110.65. I used it because I'm paying for my own fuel.

 

[Palmpilot]

I've only used that word twice when VFR, and I didn't use it to ensure controller compliance with the 7110.65. I used it because I'm paying for my own fuel.

I can certainly understand the motivation there!

 

[vintage cessna]

Suppose she continues to use flight following. How do you recommend that she determine whether or not she's inside the outer area of class C airspace?

She seems like someone who enjoys doing detailed flight planning. I believe the dimensions for those shelves are published in the AIM. Participation in the outer shelf is voluntary.

 

[Palmpilot]

She seems like someone who enjoys doing detailed flight planning. I believe the dimensions for those shelves are published in the AIM.

The Pilot/Controller Glossary says "The normal radius will be 20 nautical miles, with some variations based on site-specific requirements." I haven't seen a publication that details the variations for specific sites. It goes on to say that it extends up to the ceiling of the approach control's delegated airspace, but I haven't seen those altitudes published anywhere either.

Participation in the outer shelf is voluntary.

If she's receiving flight following in the outer area, she's considered to be participating traffic, isn't she?

 

[Henning]

Fine, but what are you going to do about it?

Some people seem to want pilots to try to correct and/or educate ATC about it while airborne. That's a personal choice, and I choose not to go that route.

Exactly what she did, tell them clearly that you're not putting up with it, you know where you're going and you know you're good to be there. Do you think they're gonna complain so their boss listens to them overstepping their authority and exposing them to liability that the CFRs specifically exclude them from when followed as written? 80% of people are stupid, when they act stupid in such a fashion to annoy me, I point it out. If you don't correct the problem, you are part of the problem.

 

[Palmpilot]

Do you think they're gonna complain so their boss listens to them overstepping their authority and exposing them to liability that the CFRs specifically exclude them from when followed as written?

I have no idea what they're going to say to their bosses, but the CFRs don't specifically exclude it. (FAA Order 7110.65 is not part of the CFRs.)

 

[roncachamp]

Most definitely. It's like this, with the exception of the C outer area, if you can be there without talking to anyone, the controller has no more authority to tell you what to do if you happen to be talking to him as if you aren't. Most of the time a controller's suggestions under flight following are beneficial for the pilot, sometimes they are only to the benefit of the controller and costly to the pilot. If a controller is about to waste $30 of my fuel for no good cause I can see, it's not gonna happen. If I have a target I need to make and they are going to interfere with that, it's not gonna happen. If it's no big skin off my back, no worries, it'll happen.

You can operate in the Outer Area associated with Class C airspace without talking to ATC. If you are talking to ATC the controller can and will assign altitudes or vectors as needed to separate you from IFR traffic.

 

[roncachamp]

Fair enough. Like I said, what I do now is not call and fly at 2500. I know they will be happy with that and it is no big deal to me.

Why is their happiness a concern to you? And why would they be any happier with a VFR target showing an unverified Mode C altitude of 2500' than one showing an unverified Mode C altitude of 2900'?

 

[alfadog]

Why is their happiness a concern to you? And why would they be any happier with a VFR target showing an unverified Mode C altitude of 2500' than one showing an unverified Mode C altitude of 2900'?

Miami: We are concerned about the fact that the base of the Bravo shelf intersects the approach path for our longest runway. We would like y'all to stay a bit below that.

Me: Sure. I will do it even if I am not talking to you. No problem.

Someone else: Screw you, I will fly where I want and you can't tell me different

Another: Yeah, screw you. Tell Obama to spend some money and redefine the Bravo.

Why?? Really, why? To prove that you can **** further?

 

[roncachamp]

Miami: We are concerned about the fact that the base of the Bravo shelf intersects the approach path for our longest runway. We would like y'all to stay a bit below that.

Me: Sure. I will do it even if I am not talking to you. No problem.

Someone else: Screw you, I will fly where I want and you can't tell me different

Another: Yeah, screw you. Tell Obama to spend some money and redefine the Bravo.

Why?? Really, why? To prove that you can **** further?

It appears you're no longer interested in "a friendly collegial discussion".

 

[Henning]

You can operate in the Outer Area associated with Class C airspace without talking to ATC. If you are talking to ATC the controller can and will assign altitudes or vectors as needed to separate you from IFR traffic.

That's what I meant, the only time when it changes as to what the controller has authority for as to whether talking or not in an area where talking is not required is in the C outer area.

 

[Mike I]

That's what I meant, the only time when it changes as to what the controller has authority for as to whether talking or not in an area where talking is not required is in the C outer area.

Where is the outer area for each Class C defined? I read in the P/CG:

The normal radius will be 20 nautical miles with some variations based on site-specific requirements. The outer area extends outward from the primary Class C airspace airport and extends from the lower limits of radar/radio coverage up to the ceiling of the approach control's delegated airspace excluding the Class C charted area and other airspace as appropriate.

How do we find out what the "variations based on site-specific requirements" are, and where are they charted?

If we're supposed to play the game of "ignoring a controller's instructions is OK when not in Class A, B, C, or Outer Area", then we need to know where the outer area is clearly defined, naturally.

I've only done some cursory searching and haven't come up with much, so I welcome an answer showing how to find the outer area on charts.

 

[kimberlyanne546]

Where is the outer area for each Class C defined? I read in the P/CG:


How do we find out what the "variations based on site-specific requirements" are, and where are they charted?

If we're supposed to play the game of "ignoring a controller's instructions is OK when not in Class A, B, C, or Outer Area", then we need to know where the outer area is clearly defined, naturally.

I've only done some cursory searching and haven't come up with much, so I welcome an answer showing how to find the outer area on charts.

Wait a minute, crap, I was near a class C airport when they started all this. But I was not in the shelf, I was below it or outside of it.

 

[Henning]

Where is the outer area for each Class C defined? I read in the P/CG:


How do we find out what the "variations based on site-specific requirements" are, and where are they charted?

If we're supposed to play the game of "ignoring a controller's instructions is OK when not in Class A, B, C, or Outer Area", then we need to know where the outer area is clearly defined, naturally.

I've only done some cursory searching and haven't come up with much, so I welcome an answer showing how to find the outer area on charts.

They are all clearly defined in text, I forget which publication and the alterations are small and typically intruding. If you're not within 50 miles of a C, you know damned well that you are not in the outer area of one. If you are 25 miles or less, assume you're in one, is that really that tough to work out?

 

[alfadog]

It appears you're no longer interested in "a friendly collegial discussion".

How so? I am really trying understand why someone would not cooperate with what seems to me to be a logical request. Just because the FAR's do not spell out that they have the power to authoritatively require it? OK, so what? It really seems like a p*ssing contest and that is why I asked. If there is some other reason other that you want that 400' in case your engine fails. Or maybe, you want the two degrees cooler; it is Florida after all.