Very general multi engine question, piper vs beech vs Cessna

[rbridges]

Starting to do a little research. I have a friend that is headstrong about barons. Not that I'm against it, but I'm more open minded. I plan to partner up with 3 to 4 more guys so I can keep my mooney.

I want a twin that can carry 4 real adults and baggage. A rear door would be awesome because I'd like to be able to take my parents and in laws who are older. They are getting to the point where spending several hours in the car is hard on them.

Anything to consider or avoid? Is insurance or maintenance any friendlier on any particular make or model? I plan to keep it hangared and don't have any aspirations for landing at short fields. Will mostly stay in southeast, probably within 2-3 hours flight time of central ga.

I'd like to stay under 100k, but could go 125k if it's worth it. I'm instrument rated. I guess fiki would be nice but personally, I don't care to fly in a bunch of freezing clouds.

Thanks in advance.

 

[N747JB]

I owned a 310R 20 years ago, great airplane, so so good for getting into the rear seats. I looked at buying another one a couple years ago, and my wife said that was fine with her, but she wouldn't be climbing up on any wings any time soon.
It really worked great when I was 30 and we had two small kids, but older adults may have issues getting into the middle row of seats.

 

[Ted]

If you're looking at the "entry-level" 6-place twins, you've basically got the Baron, 310, Aztec, and Seneca II-V. There are ones like the Seminole, Travel Air, etc. but those won't do the 4 adult mission stated.

The 58 Baron and Seneca have the rear door, which passengers love. 55 Barons don't have the rear door. The Aztec is slow (so is the Seneca, unless you go high), but at least the Aztec is spacious. The 310 I think is the best compromise as it has good room for 4 and is about the same on speed and fuel burn as a Baron, but lower purchase cost.

Beech fans say the Baron is more reliable/cheaper to operate than the others, but I've yet to see anyone show me data proving as such. The Aztec has the most space by far, but is slower than the 310/Baron by 20-30 kts unless you are going to burn a ton of fuel, at which point it's still 10-20 kts slower.

If the rear door is a big deal (and it definitely eases entry/egress for rear passengers) then I'd go for a 58 Baron. If it's not, I'd go for a 310. Either one will handle 4 adults and luggage just fine.

 

[rbridges]

I owned a 310R 20 years ago, great airplane, so so good for getting into the rear seats. I looked at buying another one a couple years ago, and my wife said that was fine with her, but she wouldn't be climbing up on any wings any time soon.
It really worked great when I was 30 and we had two small kids, but older adults may have issues getting into the middle row of seats.

Thanks. I thought the baron had a rear door, but it looks like it's just a luggage door. I can't see either set of parents climbing over a wing and into the back.

 

[Ted]

Oh, and they'll both run you $300-400/hr to operate all-in depending on how you run it and what you do to reduce your maintenance costs. Oil changes, owner-assisted annuals, etc.

 

[rbridges]

If the rear door is a big deal (and it definitely eases entry/egress for rear passengers) then I'd go for a 58 Baron. If it's not, I'd go for a 310. Either one will handle 4 adults and luggage just fine.

Thanks, ted. That's a huge help.

 

[Ted]

Thanks, ted. That's a huge help.

You're welcome. I'm always glad to talk twins if you want to give me a call.

One of these days I should write "The iFlyTwins Guide to Twins" like my Engineer Ted engines threads.

 

[rbridges]

You're welcome. I'm always glad to talk twins if you want to give me a call.

One of these days I should write "The iFlyTwins Guide to Twins" like my Engineer Ted engines threads.

If we get to the tire kicking stage, I may bounce some questions off of you. I do have one for now, do most of the baron engines have 16-1700 tbo times? Not that it means anything, but can you expect these to last as long as engines with 2000 tbo?

 

[poadeleted20]

I want a twin that can carry 4 real adults and baggage. A rear door would be awesome because I'd like to be able to take my parents and in laws who are older. They are getting to the point where spending several hours in the car is hard on them.

Anything to consider or avoid?

Among those three brands, pretty much only two light twins meet your needs/desires -- Beech 58 Baron and Piper Seneca. None of the others have the additional back door.

Next closet would be the Cessna 303 Crusader (which I've flown and really like), which has a rear airstair door but no front door (other than the emergency exit by the pilot's seat). Only problem is finding one, as only about 160 were build.

Is insurance or maintenance any friendlier on any particular make or model?

Not significantly between the planes under discussion, other than the higher maintenance/lower TBO of the turbocharged engines on the Crusader and Seneca (assuming get a normally aspirated 58 Baron rather than the turbocharged 58TC).

I'd like to stay under 100k, but could go 125k if it's worth it.

Not sure how nice a plane in this class you can find for that money, but a bit of Googling should answer that question fairly quickly.

I'm instrument rated. I guess fiki would be nice but personally, I don't care to fly in a bunch of freezing clouds.

Quite a few Senecas are FIKI'd, and many 58 Barons, too.

 

[poadeleted20]

Thanks. I thought the baron had a rear door, but it looks like it's just a luggage door. I can't see either set of parents climbing over a wing and into the back.

55/56 Barons have one forward entry, one overwing emergency exit, and one baggage door aft. 58 Barons have the big back door for entry to the middle/aft seats.

 

[poadeleted20]

If we get to the tire kicking stage, I may bounce some questions off of you. I do have one for now, do most of the baron engines have 16-1700 tbo times? Not that it means anything, but can you expect these to last as long as engines with 2000 tbo?

You cannot expect the 1600-1800 hour TBO Continentals to last as long as the 2000 hour TBO Lycomings. And you cannot expect any turbocharged engine to last as long as any normally aspirated engine (significant when we're talking about Seneca II-V or Crusader, both of which only come turbocharged). Note that the 58 Baron is widely available in both normally aspirated and turbocharged versions.

 

[stratobee]

Everyone always forgets Commanders. For older people, it's a godsend not to have to crawl over wings and do gymnastics to get into them. Commanders you just walk right into. Not only that, you have the largest cabin of any in that class and a great view. A nice Shrike 500B can be had for that money.

Even an Aerostar has better entrance than any of the over-wing aircrafts. If hell bent on Beech, try a Twin Bonanza - they have airstair at back and have a nice roomy cabin. Cheap to get in to as well.

 

[Ted]

The 520s on a 58 Baron will be 1700 TBO. Being a Continental, cylinder work will be expected in that time unless you have someone very particular to engine maintenance and operation who keeps them cool. We ran our 520s on the 310 to 2100 SMOH (400 past TBO) just fine. When we pulled them, the right could have kept going. The left was blowing a lot of oil out of the breather. Bottom ends were fine on both, but they both needed new cams when Charlie overhauled them. So yes, you can go past TBO if they're well maintained and understand some cylinder work is involved.

Ron brought up the 303, which I didn't even think to mention. It does have a nice cabin. The engines are a special form of TSIO-520 which has a 2000 hour TBO. No idea if they'll get there, but they're derated to 250 HP @ 2400 RPM. The plane is rare and has some MX issues, plus will blow your budget to buy. They'll cost about the same to operate as a 310/BE58, but will require a higher altitude for the same speed as a naturally aspirated 310/58.

 

[Ted]

Everyone always forgets Commanders. For older people, it's a godsend not to have to crawl over wings and do gymnastics to get into them. Commanders you just walk right into. Not only that, you have the largest cabin of any in that class and a great view. A nice Shrike 500B can be had for that money.

Even an Aerostar has better entrance than any of the over-wing aircrafts. If hell bent on Beech, try a Twin Bonanza - they have airstair at back and have a nice roomy cabin. Cheap to get in to as well.

There are reasons everyone forgets the Shrike, but an Aerostar is another consideration. In 600A form with naturally aspirated engines there's good economy.

 

[weilke]

If you double your budget, you can get a nice Be58. Yes, I know, you can find some for 100k or less, but if you look closer, the 'cheap' ones will cost you a lot of money over the next 3 years. When you look at the market for 58s, you will notice a glut of planes being sold with 1200-1400hrs on the engine. All of these sellers know what the bill for two FWF runs and want to sell before buyers tell them that their plane is a 'runout'.

Most Be58 with boots are 'full deice' with boots, alcohol/heated props and alcohol windshield. The planes with the actual FIKI package including boots, glass-plate windshield, electric props and heated vents are far less common and command a premium price.

If you want a travel twin for 4 and keep your budget 100-125 you'll have to give up something if you want a Baron (extra door, fiki). You would probably find a fiki Seneca somewhere around that budget, but again you may be looking at higher time engines or limited avionics.

 

[rbridges]

Thanks. Fiki is not a must have. I am disappointed to hear about the longevity of the continentals. A quick search of 58's in my price range is showing a lot of 1000+ hr engines.

Also, I'm sticking with normally aspirated engines.

 

[Ted]

Well, keep in mind that plenty of Lycoming don't make it to 2000 hours, either.

If you start out with 1200 hour engines, you've still got several years to figure out what you want to do for overhaul. It'll run around $55-70k depending on who does it and what else you do.

 

[weilke]

Thanks. Fiki is not a must have. I am disappointed to hear about the longevity of the continentals. A quick search of 58's in my price range is showing a lot of 1000+ hr engines.

Also, I'm sticking with normally aspirated engines.

There seem to be two mechanisms at work that cause the short life expectancy of cylinders on Continental engines:

1. Problems of the manufacturer to get the valve guides to be centered in the valve openings causing premature failure of the valve guide and as a result the valve.

2. Guidance from the factory and aircraft manufacturers on how to run the engines that causes many of them to be operated in a way that guarantees high cylinder pressures and CHTs.

The fix for #1 is to either A. be lucky B. buy cylinders from a after-market source C. have the cylinders pulled when you get a new engine and have a machine shop fix the valve guides.

The problem with B is that both of the after-market manufacturers have other quality problems and their cylinders are riddled with ADs, some of them quite onerous (e.g. having to throw away low-hour cylinders because the calendar says '12 years').

Continental claims that there is no problem with their cylinders but that they fixed the nonexisting problem a couple of years ago and that their 'gold superfragilicious signature deluxe' engines never had the nonexisting problem that they now fixed.

The fix for #2 is to get engine monitors and to learn how to operate the engine lean of peak. By doing so you will obtain lower cylinder pressures and lower CHTs that favor engine longevity.

A lot of people rely on option 1 A and run the engines without paying much attention to it and get the full TBO out of them.


There are not many twins with Lycoming engines. If you feel rich and buy a Navajo or you are crazy and buy a Be56TC or a Duke. People with Aztecs seem to get good service out of the normally aspirated powerplants. They are just not that fast.

 

[poadeleted20]

Also, I'm sticking with normally aspirated engines.

Then a 58 Baron is probably what you want unless you can live without the back door, in which case the 55 Baron, Aztec, and C-310 become players.

 

[Fearless Tower]

55/56 Barons have one forward entry, one overwing emergency exit, and one baggage door aft.

Close. The 55 has two emergency exit windows (one on each side that can be opened on the ground for ventilation).

 

[LDJones]

For elderly parents, the back door IS a really big deal. Mine love the back of the A36 for that reason. The 58 has the same door. Whatever you do, don't fly a Baron unless you're committed to buying one....they're an awfully nice flying machine.

 

[Fearless Tower]

Among those three brands, pretty much only two light twins meet your needs/desires -- Beech 58 Baron and Piper Seneca. None of the others have the additional back door.

Depending on the weight of the 4 adults and baggage, a 55 Baron or 310 might be able to do the job. Definitely plenty of space for 4 adults and bags. I've sat in the back seats of my 55 and found it very comfortable.

 

[Fearless Tower]

If you double your budget, you can get a nice Be58. Yes, I know, you can find some for 100k or less, but if you look closer, the 'cheap' ones will cost you a lot of money over the next 3 years. When you look at the market for 58s, you will notice a glut of planes being sold with 1200-1400hrs on the engine. All of these sellers know what the bill for two FWF runs and want to sell before buyers tell them that their plane is a 'runout'.

Most Be58 with boots are 'full deice' with boots, alcohol/heated props and alcohol windshield. The planes with the actual FIKI package including boots, glass-plate windshield, electric props and heated vents are far less common and command a premium price.

If you want a travel twin for 4 and keep your budget 100-125 you'll have to give up something if you want a Baron (extra door, fiki). You would probably find a fiki Seneca somewhere around that budget, but again you may be looking at higher time engines or limited avionics.

Agree.

You can get a 58 these days in that price range, but it will be older and cost more to maintain, whereas you can get a very nice 55 for $100-125k. Very nice 310s can be had for a little less.

 

[Clip4]

Starting to do a little research. I have a friend that is headstrong about barons. Not that I'm against it, but I'm more open minded. I plan to partner up with 3 to 4 more guys so I can keep my mooney.

I want a twin that can carry 4 real adults and baggage. A rear door would be awesome because I'd like to be able to take my parents and in laws who are older. They are getting to the point where spending several hours in the car is hard on them.

Anything to consider or avoid? Is insurance or maintenance any friendlier on any particular make or model? I plan to keep it hangared and don't have any aspirations for landing at short fields. Will mostly stay in southeast, probably within 2-3 hours flight time of central ga.

I'd like to stay under 100k, but could go 125k if it's worth it. I'm instrument rated. I guess fiki would be nice but personally, I don't care to fly in a bunch of freezing clouds.

Thanks in advance.

Ever consider a single that can carry 4 adualts and baggage?

 

[Henning]

Starting to do a little research. I have a friend that is headstrong about barons. Not that I'm against it, but I'm more open minded. I plan to partner up with 3 to 4 more guys so I can keep my mooney.

I want a twin that can carry 4 real adults and baggage. A rear door would be awesome because I'd like to be able to take my parents and in laws who are older. They are getting to the point where spending several hours in the car is hard on them.

Anything to consider or avoid? Is insurance or maintenance any friendlier on any particular make or model? I plan to keep it hangared and don't have any aspirations for landing at short fields. Will mostly stay in southeast, probably within 2-3 hours flight time of central ga.

I'd like to stay under 100k, but could go 125k if it's worth it. I'm instrument rated. I guess fiki would be nice but personally, I don't care to fly in a bunch of freezing clouds.

Thanks in advance.

I can sell you a sweetheart for under $100k, $100k if you want me to finish it up with an autopilot and the next round of stuff I'm planning.

I had four passengers and a girl in the back who is used to a Turbo 260 Comanche commented, "I didn't expect it to be so athletic." The wide a cabin and three wide back seat (which I flew three real sized people in to see the Space Shuttle launch) makes it great for four.

It's even in your neck of the woods.

 

[poadeleted20]

Depending on the weight of the 4 adults and baggage, a 55 Baron or 310 might be able to do the job. Definitely plenty of space for 4 adults and bags. I've sat in the back seats of my 55 and found it very comfortable.

Same for the Aztec. The only issue with those three is the lack of direct entry to the rear seats.

 

[Ted]

Same for the Aztec. The only issue with those three is the lack of direct entry to the rear seats.

I always thought that an Aztec could easily be converted to club seating, and a rear door could have been added to make it feasible. Piper's decision to pursue the PA34 rather than advance the PA27 I think was foolish, but the 34 was probably much cheaper to build.

 

[Kristin]

I can put 800 lbs in my Twin Comanche and fly 500 miles.