Vans retiring the RV3/6

T

Tony R

Pre-takeoff checklist
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Atrosa
So what does this mean for the current fleet? I see they will still manufacturer parts, but all parts? If you bend something can it be replaced with a OEM part? What are the communities thoughts?

www.vansaircraft.com

Entering Retirement: The RV-3, RV-4, and RV-6 - Van's Aircraft Total Performance RV Kit Planes

After decades of offering the RV-3, RV-4, and RV-6 to the builder community, we are preparing to retire these models from active kit production. These aircraft represent the earliest chapters of Van’s Aircraft and are the foundation of Total Performance. As kit orders for these models have...
www.vansaircraft.com www.vansaircraft.com
 
They say they will continue supporting the fleet. Also, the RV-6 can be fabricated from plans - the plans are dimensioned so you *could* scratch build one. It has been done. In addition, there remains a lot of commonality (cowling, canopy, canopy frame, gear) between the -6 and the -7 and -9. The main gear (weldments and gear legs) on a -6a may be the thing that would be hardest for a scratch builder to replicate.
 
When they do this for the S-LSA models it will hurt much more
 
Warmi said:
Rv -12 is one of their better selling kits, why would they do that ?
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It was an odd comment. I have no idea how many RV-12As (the S-LSA version) have been built but I’d bet it’s a lot less than the 817+ E-LSA/E-AB kit versions that have made first flights.
 
hindsight2020 said:
boom. called it.
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They stopped selling -6 empennage kits 24 years ago. And the number of -3 and -4 kits sold annually is in the single digits. IMO, they would have done their builders a solid by making a 2 year curtain call, but I guess that's their call. I would love to know how many new kits they are selling these days. Inflation, expectation/mission creep, etc. have almost certainly hurt their sales figures, 'cause the window for building an inexpensive RV closed a while ago...
 
Keeping those slow moving models may have been part of the solvency problem.
 
geezer said:
Keeping those slow moving models may have been part of the solvency problem.
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The 3/4/6 kits have been produced on-demand since something like 2017, and prices raised accordingly at the time. I doubt that the expense of limited production made much of a blip compared to the financial suckhole of laser-cut parts mitigation, pricing issues, and new airplane development.
That being said, I understand the reasoning behind fully discontinuing production as part of better fiscal management.

I'll complain about the RV-4 "builder's manual" [sic] all day long but the plans are great for anyone who's worried about parts availability.

Nauga,
tinbashing
 
painless said:
Boy, is that ever the truth….
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Thread drift, but the builder demographic has changed since you, Nauga, and I built airplanes. I sourced my engine (a run-out) from "Bobby's Planes and Parts" in Texas, did the rebuild myself, painted the airplane myself, didn't have an autopilot, and flew with a true handheld GPS for a long time. The airplane wasn't cheap, but it was on the low end of the cost spectrum. Nauga bought his (used, IIRC) engine somewhere down South, picked it up and trucked it to St Louie, as I recall. There were a lot of us building on a near-shoestring and it was a source of pride among many builders that they could build a nice airplane without a big budget.

Everything is much more expensive today, but on top of increased engine and airframe costs, people are paying Evoke Aviation more for a paint job than my entire RV-6 cost. People are installing (or having someone install) instrument panels that cost twice what my RV-6 cost. Full interiors, leather interiors, Electronic Fuel Injection, just tons of upgrades that raise the optioned-out cost into the stratosphere. And nobody brags about an inexpensive RV anymore - the bragging comes at the other end of the spectrum for the most part. The vendors love it - I was talking with one of the big avionics vendors/installers at Oshkosh over a beer and he is blown away by how far upscale the market has moved. The funny thing is lots of these tricked out airplanes with amazing panels are being used the same as my wood prop VFR RV-6 - buzzing around on Saturday, an occasional VFR trip to see the inlaws, etc.

The cost increases have to have a negative impact on Van's kit volume.
 
I don't have the data, maybe @ArrowFlyer86 does, but it sure seems more RV's are hitting TAP over the last year or two. Haven't noticed much price drop, and of course, nothing on the completed sale/no sale info.
Only mentioning as that may have a slight effect on new kit orders as well.
Really curious how the -15 will fare..

Daily routine:
Big cup of coffee
Browse Vans for a build kit
Coffee wears off
Browse TAP for a flying RV
Check bank account
Shut down computer, sigh
Take out trash
Turn on Neflix
 
Skyrys62 said:
I don't have the data, maybe @ArrowFlyer86 does, but it sure seems more RV's are hitting TAP over the last year or two. Haven't noticed much price
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Unfortunately I didn't track experimental listings :(.When I was first deciding what to collect there seemed like too much dispersion in quality/avionics (and thus price $) in the homebuilt group where aggregate listing data wouldn't be helpful. Vans RV listings aren't as fungible as 1974 Skyhawk listings. However, I regret not collecting that data anywho since my own interests expanded into experimental.

kyleb said:
Everything is much more expensive today, but on top of increased engine and airframe costs, people are paying Evoke Aviation more for a paint job than my entire RV-6 cost. People are installing (or having someone install) instrument panels that cost twice what my RV-6 cost. Full interiors, leather interiors, Electronic Fuel Injection, just tons of upgrades that raise the optioned-out cost into the stratosphere. And nobody brags about an inexpensive RV anymore - the bragging comes at the other end of the spectrum for the most part. The vendors love it - I was talking with one of the big avionics vendors/installers at Oshkosh over a beer and he is blown away by how far upscale the market has moved. The funny thing is lots of these tricked out airplanes with amazing panels are being used the same as my wood prop VFR RV-6 - buzzing around on Saturday, an occasional VFR trip to see the inlaws, etc.
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That's an interesting perspective on it.

When I read your description of the market evolution I can't help but find parallels to other markets (like trucks or housing market). Not that long ago trucks were utilitarian in nature. People were not driving around in practical, laborer vehicles showing off hand stitched leather, HUDs, walnut wood trim and massaging seats. Trucks were workhorses. Boy has that changed! Now you wouldn't brag about the used+abused, indestructible truck you've had for 25 years, you'd brag about the brand new RAM TRX with all the luxury creature comforts one could possibly want.
 
ArrowFlyer86 said:
When I read your description of the market evolution I can't help but find parallels to other markets (like trucks or housing market). Not that long ago trucks were utilitarian in nature.
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The truck market is a great comparison. I'm using that analogy to push back against a recent tax valuation on my RV-10. An F-150 can list from about $35K (base model) to about $75K for the Raptor version. After that, you can add another $20K in options if that's your thing. You don't see a lot of base models running around...
 
Like @kyleb said, RV builders have made them expensive with all the options they install. Guys are putting in multi-screen glass panels, full-festured autopilots, redundant electrical systems, annunciator panels, HOTAS control grips, all to fly day VFR for half an hour to breakfast. Few of them going full Gucci are flying IFR, nor for great distances over abandoned territory with no divert options, nor are they doing anything that precludes taking their hand off the throttle or stick for three seconds to flick a switch.

Seriously - a light to tell you the boost pump is on when there’s a toggle switch with a label? Landing light annunciator? Canopy Unlatched warning lights? The canopy latch on an -8 is within the visual scan - literally a foot away from the pilot’s eyes, and is an over-center cam with a strong spring. Even if it does unlatch in flight, it’ll only slide an inch back without being pulled.

And then when they complete them, take a look at how many hours they rack up. Compare the airborne Garmin catalogs that get 30 hours a year to a couple of the highest-time RVs out there - basic paint and avionics, and flown for at least a couple hundred hours a year for a couple decades.

I would love to have another RV-8, but it would be one that I build, and done like posted above. Light, simple, less expensive. I believe that a perfectly fine, functional, safe, and attractive RV can be built for under a hundred grand by someone who embraces the legacy spirit of homebuilding.

I get it - they like to tinker, they love gadgets and to see what they can come up with, with a supersize dose of keeping up with the Joneses mixed in.
 
ateamer said:
Like @kyleb said, RV builders have made them expensive with all the options they install. ….
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If I’m building an RV-10, it’s for serious XC work. If I’m building an 8 or 14, Day VFR acro is its job.

How they’re finished out is wildly different.
 
ateamer said:
Like @kyleb said, RV builders have made them expensive with all the options they install. Guys are putting in multi-screen glass panels, full-festured autopilots, redundant electrical systems, annunciator panels, HOTAS control grips, all to fly day VFR for half an hour to breakfast. Few of them going full Gucci are flying IFR, nor for great distances over abandoned territory with no divert options, nor are they doing anything that precludes taking their hand off the throttle or stick for three seconds to flick a switch.

Seriously - a light to tell you the boost pump is on when there’s a toggle switch with a label? Landing light annunciator? Canopy Unlatched warning lights? The canopy latch on an -8 is within the visual scan - literally a foot away from the pilot’s eyes, and is an over-center cam with a strong spring. Even if it does unlatch in flight, it’ll only slide an inch back without being pulled.

And then when they complete them, take a look at how many hours they rack up. Compare the airborne Garmin catalogs that get 30 hours a year to a couple of the highest-time RVs out there - basic paint and avionics, and flown for at least a couple hundred hours a year for a couple decades.

I would love to have another RV-8, but it would be one that I build, and done like posted above. Light, simple, less expensive. I believe that a perfectly fine, functional, safe, and attractive RV can be built for under a hundred grand by someone who embraces the legacy spirit of homebuilding.

I get it - they like to tinker, they love gadgets and to see what they can come up with, with a supersize dose of keeping up with the Joneses mixed in.
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I suppose you expect me to drink cold coffee and not have an install coffee warmer, what is this 1970?
 
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