Value of 2 VORs

[John Myers]

KBUR has an LP but no LPV, but agreed they are almost non-existant. A couple others that I recall last year having no LPV now do. That said, ATC around here often just assigns the ILS and you need to ask for the LPV. If it’s MVFR you feel like a pain for requesting the RNAV, not a big deal, but point being at least for now an ILS receiver retains some value. Maybe with the ICAO codes his will change but so few /G (or whatever the ICAO equivalent is) aircraft don’t have ILS I doubt the controller would notice?

Here’s a similar thread: https://www.pilotsofamerica.com/community/threads/are-dual-navs-necessary-anymore.121215/page-2

 

[steingar]

Save the lat/long of the checkpoint as a user defined waypoint into your GPS and then every 30 days D-> enter enter.

If I could use the GPS to calibrate the VOR this would be a non issue. Sadly, it's not included in the rules, which are printed above.

Although not always on an airway, a published radial off a VOR on a approach plate that passes over an airport seems like it meets the intent of the rule. Maybe that can work for you.

Intent, but not the letter. Says very plainly that it is supposed to be on a Victor Airway greater than 20 miles. This is something the FAA really needs to revisit, since the VOR network is not what it once was.

Have you looked for either VOR check points (defined in the green book formerly known as AFD) or VOT stations in your area? There happen to be two ground VOR check points at my home 'drome (KORL) but that's not everywhere...

I was surprised that there wasn't one at my home drone, since it's the busiest GA airport in the state and has a VOR nearby. but no joy. Haven't checked all the local airports (there are several) but if it isn't at mine I can't imagine it would be a one of those. But hope springs eternal.

 

[PPC1052]

Have you looked for either VOR check points (defined in the green book formerly known as AFD) or VOT stations in your area?

Just out of curiosity, if you happen to be on the ground at an airport that so is close to another one that has a VOT that you are able to tune in the VOT, is there any issue with using it to do a VOR check? I know the regs don't contemplate doing this, but technically is it feasible?

 

[jsstevens]

[snip]
I was surprised that there wasn't one at my home drone, since it's the busiest GA airport in the state and has a VOR nearby. but no joy. Haven't checked all the local airports (there are several) but if it isn't at mine I can't imagine it would be a one of those. But hope springs eternal.

It's not what's busiest or biggest today, it's often what was busiest or biggest 40 years ago when the network was being built. There is not a VOT but there is a VOR and two documented test points in the aprons at my home airport, Orlando Executive (KORL). It's a class D airport between a class C, Sanford (KSFB) and a very, very busy class B, Orlando International (KMCO) but KORL was built first and was the civilian airport when the VOR network was being built out.

Just some data points...

At his point, everything I fly has two VOR receivers in them so I can simply check against the other...

John

 

[John Myers]

Regarding VOR checkpoints, if you’re not using it on a flight (if you have GPS you usually would not be) you don’t need to check it.

Clearly a WAAS GPS is more accurate to test against than an additional VOR, and I can’t imagine anyone getting busted on testing against it.

 

[jpskies]

I wonder the new Garmin emergency autoland system ever uses VOR and/or ILS for its navigation or approach to landing. If it does not, then it hints that the VOR or ILS will be less and less important in the future NAS.

 

[Greg Bockelman]

Ya think? That is already happening.

 

[John Myers]

I wonder the new Garmin emergency autoland system ever uses VOR and/or ILS for its navigation or approach to landing. If it does not, then it hints that the VOR or ILS will be less and less important in the future NAS.

Hints? They are literally dismantling the VOR system. No new ILSs are being installed. I can’t imagine Garmin would get any benefit from using either.

 

[N1120A]

KVNY (Van Nuys) does not have any GPS approach and does have two ILS approaches. There are several others, including some popular GA destinations, but I can't think of off the top of my head.

VNY is definitely the most glaring airport with an ILS and no RNAV.

KBUR has an LP but no LPV, but agreed they are almost non-existant. A couple others that I recall last year having no LPV now do. That said, ATC around here often just assigns the ILS and you need to ask for the LPV. If it’s MVFR you feel like a pain for requesting the RNAV, not a big deal, but point being at least for now an ILS receiver retains some value. Maybe with the ICAO codes his will change but so few /G (or whatever the ICAO equivalent is) aircraft don’t have ILS I doubt the controller would notice?

Here’s a similar thread: https://www.pilotsofamerica.com/community/threads/are-dual-navs-necessary-anymore.121215/page-2

The BUR LP approach also has much worse minimums than the ILS, which is also a horrible ILS (useless about a mile out, when the GS drops out and the LOC starts shifting)

I wonder the new Garmin emergency autoland system ever uses VOR and/or ILS for its navigation or approach to landing. If it does not, then it hints that the VOR or ILS will be less and less important in the future NAS.

It doesn't. It will specifically find an LPV

Hints? They are literally dismantling the VOR system. No new ILSs are being installed. I can’t imagine Garmin would get any benefit from using either.

There's talk of maybe a couple more new ILSs being installed. One in Hawaii, where WAAS isn't available. Still, MON is the way of the future and GLS isn't far behind.

 

[John Myers]

There's talk of maybe a couple more new ILSs being installed. One in Hawaii, where WAAS isn't available. Still, MON is the way of the future and GLS isn't far behind.

That’s interesting, hadn’t thought of that. Ideal candidate for GLS.

 

[N1120A]

That’s interesting, hadn’t thought of that. Ideal candidate for GLS.

Except that my understanding is that it will be to a primarily GA airport, and GLS is likely to not be available to GA aircraft for some time, as LPV is meant to sub for it.

 

[John Myers]

Except that my understanding is that it will be to a primarily GA airport, and GLS is likely to not be available to GA aircraft for some time, as LPV is meant to sub for it.

I thought GLS is only relevant for cat II and III which wouldn’t be applicable to GA? KEWR has GLS approaches but there doesn’t seem to be any news on GLS since those were created years ago. I’m hoping for more RF legs for GA. KEGE and some other mountain airports out here could use them and the ones that have them are approval required.

 

[N1120A]

I thought GLS is only relevant for cat II and III which wouldn’t be applicable to GA? KEWR has GLS approaches but there doesn’t seem to be any news on GLS since those were created years ago. I’m hoping for more RF legs for GA. KEGE and some other mountain airports out here could use them and the ones that have them are approval required.

Those approaches are very real, and currently authorized for certain carriers to CAT I mins. FRA and IAH have them as well. Lufthansa and United both like using them when available.

 

[David Megginson]

Its dead until solar flares interrupt GPS or your GPS rolls over in flight.

...or military jamming exercises, or emergency jamming in an actual terrorist drone attack, takes out RNAV over a wide area. I've experienced that a couple of times in flight (the jamming exercises, not the real thing).

That said, as long as you preflight your nav radio regularly to make sure it's still working, I don't know that you need the redundancy of a second one—it's unlikely it would fail at the exact same moment there's a GPS outage.

If you want a bit of cheaper emergency redundancy, you can buy a handheld radio with a LOC-VOR option, like the Yaesu 550L. Reception isn't as good as a panel unit with external antenna, but it would still give you some backup means of navigation if all else failed, for less than 0.5 AMU.

 

[John Myers]

There's talk of maybe a couple more new ILSs being installed. One in Hawaii, where WAAS isn't available. Still, MON is the way of the future and GLS isn't far behind.

There actually is a WAAS ground station in Hawaii, next to the runway in Honolulu too so probably get sub meter accuracy on an approach already.

 

[RussR]

There actually is a WAAS ground station in Hawaii, next to the runway in Honolulu too so probably get sub meter accuracy on an approach already.

Sure that isn't a LAAS station, or perhaps a WAAS ground reference station (not a master station)? Or alternately a test facility of some kind? There are no WAAS-enabled approaches into HNL - i.e. no LP or LPV minimums.

Hawaii does not fall within the WAAS coverage area:
https://www.nstb.tc.faa.gov/RT_VerticalProtectionLevel.htm

 

[N1120A]

There actually is a WAAS ground station in Hawaii, next to the runway in Honolulu too so probably get sub meter accuracy on an approach already.

No WAAS approaches into HNL, or any other airport in Hawaii. My guess is that might be a GBAS station for a future GLS.

 

[John Myers]

Sure that isn't a LAAS station, or perhaps a WAAS ground reference station (not a master station)? Or alternately a test facility of some kind? There are no WAAS-enabled approaches into HNL - i.e. no LP or LPV minimums.

Hawaii does not fall within the WAAS coverage area:
https://www.nstb.tc.faa.gov/RT_VerticalProtectionLevel.htm

It is a standard WAAS ground reference station, my understanding is master stations uplink data to satellites and wouldn't be relevant to WAAS coverage.

There is WAAS coverage in Hawaii but with only one station I believe it does not usually provide sufficient ionospheric corrections for an LPV approach, and so is not plotted. It is plotted for RNP 0.1, though: https://www.nstb.tc.faa.gov/24Hr_WaasRNP1.htm

So I think we're both right in that there is WAAS coverage in Hawaii, but in the context of the above it doesn't seem reliable enough for an LPV approach to be developed. I don't quite understand why having a ground reference station right near the runway wouldn't be enough, in theory the error should be corrected down to nearly zero error near the runway. I think this is how GBAS works anyways apart from the VHF link. I'm missing something but not sure what.

One theory is that they just aren't computing the LPV availability because there is simply no approach there, and there may be no approach there because it is so seldom needed (not sure if that is true or not)? Seems unlikely but I can't think of what else it would be.