Vague feeling of unease when > 9000. Not related to O2

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docmirror

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Cowboy - yeehah!
Channeling Manilow; feeeeeeeelings,,, nothing more than feeeeeeeeeelings.

Ahem - back to our regular program. I've noticed before, and again a few days ago that when I fly low, around 3-6k altitudes, I'm comfy, almost complacent about the flight. No stress, no strain, or anything like the tight sphincter of unease.

However, when I fly above 9000 feet, I get this strange feeling of some kind of insecurity or vague unease. Hmmmmmm. I snorted some O2 finally cause I thought it would be related to Oxygen deprivation, but I checked my SpO2 sat and was getting about 91 without the O2 snort, and up to 98 with it. I left the O2 running for about 30 minutes, and would still get the same feeling.

It's hard to pin down, not like anything I've had before. I can look down and when the ground is nearly 2 miles away, I get a strange sensation that if something went wrong, I would be in greater danger than if I was at low altitude. In fact, I like doing very low level flight.

I know empirically that flying higher is generally safer unless one is on fire, but the strange sensation like I was on my own up there(which I was), and anything that goes wrong will be unquestionably fatal.

Anyone had this before? Wondering if it's just fear of heights, or fear of being alone, or other psychosomatic deal or if I'm just being too critical? Never had any history of trouble up there, but it's one of those nagging things that won't seem to go away. Hmmmmmm. :loco:
 
Interesting. Are you afraid of heights at all in general? Tall buildings, cliffs, etc.? My brother is uneasy with heights while on ground-based objects but reported that the higher we got in the airplane, the less uneasy he felt. He believed it was because at some altitude, he was far enough away to feel disconnected from the ground and in some way had out-climbed his fear of heights.

Yours sort of sounds like the opposite.
 
I've never noticed it. I've stood on the edge of the Grand Canyon, and in the Eiffel Tower, and other high up places without any fear. Mostly just related to flying high.
 
For me, being able to clearly see the ground was my security blanket. Getting really high where I couldnt* see houses and stuff plainly was scary. But now i understand that ALT is your friend.
 
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Up until a couple weeks ago 5500 was the highest I'd been in my training. I went up to 7500 on a xc and loved it. Wanted to go higher. I don't think I would have any problems at 9k+. One thing I notice were perceptions of night and speed were off when I dropped back down to my normal levels after the first leg. About the only time I have issues with height is getting on and off the roof of a house with a ladder.
 
I get that feeling sometimes in the Flybaby when I go up to 12,000 or so, mostly just because it feels "weird" and "abnormal" compared to how I usually fly it.
 
Two observations..

When I fly a cub with the door open anything over about a thousand feet starts giving me the willies. 800-900 ft no problem but at a certain height I am no longer feeling comfortable.

In the Tiger I have noticed this a few time when I go very high. One time it was very clearcut at about 12k I think it was two things that caused this . One everything on the ground got very small and also there was scattered clouds between me and the ground. I think that added to the visual effect of the altitude.
 
For something completely different....

How does your digestive system handle the high altitudes?

The need to open a window is well known, but you can also get more subtle effects, that might seem like "unease."
 
It's probably the "alone" part that's getting to you rather than the altitude. I've experienced similar uneasy sensations in places such as over the Black Rock Desert or eastern Oregon where it hits me just how far away I am from ANYBODY else :eek: but it usually passes shortly. Thinking of something like the Apollo astronauts seems to help or just get yourself busy doing your aviator chores to occupy your mind. I wouldn't worry about it.
 
I have this same problem.

My ideal height to fly is 2500-3500 feet.
I start feeling small. Above 7000 and like I am in a small boat in the ocean.

Same though. Can't pinpoint it.
 
Ya know whats weird though and I just realized it.
It is not a problem if I am above the clouds.

I think it has something to do with seeing the world and realizing just how far you are from it.
 
I think my primary fear in the Flybaby up high is that some hotshot doctor in a bonanza reading a newspaper on autopilot is going to run my ass over.
 
What is making you uneasy is the slightly different feel of the controls due to the thinner air. They start getting a little mushy, hardly noticeable at that altitude, but still there.

I flew under a very dark bottomed cloud and felt myself being sucked up into it, I was at about 10'000' when it happened, the closer I got to that dark bottom of the cloud, the more uncomfortable I felt.

I had a female passenger at the time, so all I could do was ignore it, and explain to her why we were being sucked up into it. I told her that an evil sorcerer had put a curse on my good magic....the only reason the plane was flying in the first place. I later mumbled something about there being more lift under the cloud so she would not think I was weird.

I found the shadow of the cloud on the ground so I knew I was not under a forming towering cumulous, but still uncomfortable climbing at over 1000' pm.

-John
 
Surely it's a matter of habit. I spent my first 100 or 150 hours cruising 10.5/11.5 and it was somewhat uncomfortable buzzing the countryside when I visited Texas. Glide range is miniscule, there's no time to say "Mommy" if anything happens. Freaking birds everywhere. Runways are tiiiiiiny.
 
We do specialize in birds hovering over small runways here.
It is to the point of being laughable now.

Not an uncommon conversation:

"Six Papa Charlie taking 17"
"You got birds over the numbers on upwind"
"Would be shocked if I didn't"
 
Silvaire said:
It's probably the "alone" part that's getting to you rather than the altitude. I've experienced similar uneasy sensations in places such as over the Black Rock Desert or eastern Oregon where it hits me just how far away I am from ANYBODY else :eek: but it usually passes shortly. Thinking of something like the Apollo astronauts seems to help or just get yourself busy doing your aviator chores to occupy your mind. I wouldn't worry about it.
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This! I've got the same feeling when on my sailboat without any land in sight. It is instinct telling you that you are not "safe" as in nature there is always strength in numbers. I find that is a good time to get on the radio and request an in-flight weather briefing. Or fly with somebody else :p
 
Wow, thank you all. I think we're onto several things. I believe it is partly a matter of 'aloneness'. I usually cruise at 10.5 or 11.5 for the economy and winds. And, I often fly over the desert west, and mountain west. Also the controls are not as firm or responsive as down low with decent speed. My stomach is ok, I have done plenty of low level flights with no problem, and plenty of acro so that's not it.

Just like things are floating along, but there's something, something going on that I don't know about. If you've ever seen the old twilight Zone where the monster is on the wing tearing it off, and only one guy can see it, it's kind of like that, but not as serious. Best I can explain is vague unease, not nausea, or illness, just that things could go horribly wrong, and I would spend a minute or so tumbling down, down, down into an abyss.

Weird. Seems I'm not completely alone with it either.
 
Perhaps mild agoraphobia if it isn't acrophobia/altophobia?

Of course giving it a name doesn't explain its origin. Heck of a lot of named phobias:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_phobias

Edit: Ah, way down near the bottom of that Wikipedia list is a possible related fear: Nihilophobia.
 
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The "vague feeling" is better known as "fear". At high altitudes the controls are different, you feel like you're losing control or might soon be, that's the "vagueness" part of it.

Years ago I was sailing at night alone down the coast of Baja Mexico, I thought I was a lot further out than I actually was. I saw the dark outline of an island ahead of me, one that, according to my brilliant navigation and planning, did not exist. it gave me a downright creepy feeling as I drew closer to it, much like the feeling I had as I was being sucked up into that dark cloud. I changed course and headed further out to sea, I wanted nothing to do with a weird looking island that should not have been there.

I found out later that it was not the island that was off course. I don't care what we call those uneasy feelings, but they are fear. It is your body's way of putting you on high alert for danger.

In my own defense, I had a moderate to heavy following sea that had taken me well off my course. This was in the days before GPS.

-John
 
It may not be related to O2 or it may be.

More likely just your body and mind saying to you, "hey! you're near a zone where you can die if you proceed!" A physical thing that the mind picks up on. A caveman survival thing ...

Or something like that. :dunno:
 
The difference in O2 saturation from 98 to 91% is significant, but if anything you should start feeling more happy or euphoric, not fearful, due to the change in O2. It's something else.

It could be related to losing the sensation of making progress toward your destination. You have more time to overthink things. Call it "sensory underload." Do you have a moving map GPS display? Perhaps taking more frequent note of milestones in the flight, and making a mental note of percentage of completion of the flight, would help.

I've done cross-country flights at 2,000' AGL+ in a single-seat gyroplane which was very slow by airplane standards, and completely open. Not even a windscreen, and minimal steam gauges mounted just above the rudder pedals. I can't say I felt more fearful at altitude, but losing the sense of forward progress did make longer flights difficult.

I find that cinching the shoulder belts on the four-point harness to hold my upper body tight against the seatback helps with the feeling of exposure in such an open aircraft, but that's not a good option if you have a three-point with a single, diagonal shoulder belt, or an inertial reel designed to keep it loose.
 
I think the feeling comes on at higher altitudes because the motion of the ground goes away. You just seem suspended.
 
docmirror said:
Anyone had this before? Wondering if it's just fear of heights, or fear of being alone, or other psychosomatic deal or if I'm just being too critical? Never had any history of trouble up there, but it's one of those nagging things that won't seem to go away. Hmmmmmm. :loco:
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Interesting. I have a big fear of heights, yet flying a plane doesn't bother me in the least. But looking over the edge of building, anything above 3 floors has my stomach doing the frug. :vomit:

As for altitude, I always fly my trips in the 8000 to 11000 range. Cooler, smoother, less traffic, but the biggie is glide distance/time. More time to work it out if the **** hits the fan.
 
Interesting discussion.

I notice that feeling in completely smooth air on longer X-C legs. I don't like that sense of being in suspended animation where nothing seems to be moving even though I know I am at cruise speed. I have never associated the feeling with altitude and I have only noticed when I was alone. I really dislike the feeling. We should name it something.

Fortunately I am not a doctor, so I do not fear running over a Flybaby even if I am flying the Bonanza.

Scott
 
Maybe that will subside after you do it a few times? Kind of like the first steep turn I ever did, kinda freaked me out lol. Now I love doing them.
 
jesse said:
I think my primary fear in the Flybaby up high is that some hotshot doctor in a bonanza reading a newspaper on autopilot is going to run my ass over.
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This is why I like 12,500' and above. Strap on 02, climb to 17,500' and break out the news paper. :lol: ;)


I think most people are uncomfortable with solitude. Flying is a very lonely sport for the most part. Personally, I love it. I like using the prevailing winds to get to the destination quicker.

Seriously, OP get Sirrus radio and listen to your favorite tunes. No need to worry or allow the "feelings" to control you.
 
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kgruber said:
I think the feeling comes on at higher altitudes because the motion of the ground goes away. You just seem suspended.
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This may be spot on (for me anyway).
I get the same feeling flying at night.
 
I like altitude. Gives you more options if it suddenly gets quiet up front.
 
Have you checked your estrogen levels?
 
I suppose I can understand how someone might feel that way, but I've never experienced it personally. Then again, normally if I'm above 10K I'm usually near or over terrain that isn't much lower.

I don't know if the sailboat analogy is a good one. If I'm out in the middle of the ocean outside of the view of land in a sailboat, if I do nothing, I'll probably still be out there. If I'm up at 16K enjoying the view while huffing some oxygen, I know that regardless of what happens I'll still come back down.
 
Richard Collins wrote a column some time ago where he mentioned that he was afraid of heights, and that was not uncommon among pilots.

Made me feel better. I do NOT like heights, especially climbing onto the roof from a ladder and that sort of thing.

But flying up to the low flight levels (maybe 21,000 or so in a P210) or at 17,500' in my Cirrus was just never a problem.

I actually now enjoy trying to find that sudden sense of height, usually lacking for me in flying. When IFR current, sometimes punching out of a cloud layer into suddenly clear skies could do it. Take your breath away for a moment. And out west, flying low over a plateau and having the ground drop away suddenly can also stimulate that - I may have a video somewhere of that illusion.
 
Make a couple of skydives you'll get over it. Or realize you'd have a minute of retrospection from that altitude if the wings fall off. That'll be one long minute.:lol:
 
Put me in the "afraid of heights" category. I don't like ladders, and I certainly don't like being on a roof. Climbing out of an airport, however, does nothing to me beyond a typical combination of focus and anxiety. I've never been apprehensive at higher altitude, but I have certainly noticed a difference in, well, "feel".
 
docmirror said:
However, when I fly above 9000 feet, I get this strange feeling of some kind of insecurity or vague unease. Hmmmmmm. I snorted some O2 finally cause I thought it would be related to Oxygen deprivation, but I checked my SpO2 sat and was getting about 91 without the O2 snort, and up to 98 with it. I left the O2 running for about 30 minutes, and would still get the same feeling.
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Does your pulse ox meter show heart rate as well? I ask that because I have had a very similar experience. The first time it caused a near-panic attack and I felt the need to descend, as in immediately (this was long ago as a student pilot on a XC). When it kept happening I checked my pulse rate and found it was significantly elevated, and does that consistently when I'm above 8000 feet or so. I realized that my mind was interpreting the increase in HR due to reduced O2 as anxiety, and then driving itself into a positive feedback loop of snowballing anxiety. By now I've learned to break the feedback loop, but I still feel a little bit uneasy at those altitudes. I've never flown with O2 so I'm not sure whether breathing through a cannula provides enough to drive my HR back down to normal. You say your pulse ox is back up to 98 on O2 so maybe it is in your case, and your feeling uneasy is now a conditioned reaction... just a thought.
 
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EdFred said:
Have you checked your estrogen levels?
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Bingo! :rofl:

Well, I gave it some more thought overnight, and I've come up with another word that might be more accurate. Foreboding. It's not like it's any kind of debilitation, I don't break out in sweats, I don't have any kind of urges, or affect my flying at all. Just a kind of feeling that should I go down, no one will know, care or even find me for years if ever.

This time I was coming back from CO and as I climbed into the mtn wave I was getting tossed pretty good. No way to maintain alt so I was swinging around a lot and as it smoothed out after a few hundred miles things below looked quite bleak.

Lucky, I started to examine the sense of foreboding, and figured there was no sense in worrying about things. I had everything under control that I could control. The wind I couldn't control, and maybe that's what brought it out.

As for O2 having an effect, I was on the stuff for about 40 minutes, and no real change. Then I took it off and no change. My pulse was pretty normal, and no other effects, just that niggling sense of worry. I think some are making this into a big deal, when it's just annoying. Maybe now that I've mentioned it, that might take care of it.
 
EdFred said:
Solution: Go fly more.
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I felt this the first time when I flew from Sandy Eggo to PHX area back in the early 80s. I was going over in a Citabria, which ain't no speed demon. Since it was summer, I hopped up pretty high, and started wondering about all the bits and pieces of the plane doing what they do, and nothing coming apart over the desert.

Doubt it has to do with recency or anything like that. It does seem to get more pronounced with age, but maybe that's just distant memory fading as well.
 
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