Vague feeling of unease when > 9000. Not related to O2

I grew up climbing power line poles up to 55' and never had any issue. However, somewhere in my 20's I began to really dislike ladders, fire escapes, ledges, edges, roof tops, etc, but don't get that feeling at any AGL in an airplane.
 
What I find interesting is I don't mind heights too much but just watching these dumbass kids makes me physically sweat even though I am in the comfort of a chair

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r6divyNPlzo

That one and there is the one of the guys climbing the radio tower. Its just a video but I can feel myself getting stressed.

Edit: just had to stop the video at about the 1:40 mark. ugh
 
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Not related to the OP's unease, but thought I'd note that one of the few times that the fear of heights struck me while airborne was the first couple times I flew a glider maneuver called "boxing the wake".

I think that it was the nearby tow plane's movement across the field of view that triggered a greater sense of "space" and "height" than I normally sense while flying. Two minute video of what it roughly looks like:
 
I grew up climbing power line poles up to 55' and never had any issue. However, somewhere in my 20's I began to really dislike ladders, fire escapes, ledges, edges, roof tops, etc, but don't get that feeling at any AGL in an airplane.

I am decidedly not a fan of heights. Ladders don't bother me, and neither does my roof. But coming to the edge of two stories+ gives me that uneasy feeling in my stomach, and I can't stand it when we're up somewhere high and the step kids go right up to the edge.

But, like you, I get no sense of heights in airplanes. I think that's relatively common, though my mother, who is phobic of heights, says it effected her just as it always does.
 
IMHO the higher the better. Nothing better than watching the sun sink into an undercast from 23,000 feet.

Bob Gardner
 
We do specialize in birds hovering over small runways here.
It is to the point of being laughable now.

Not an uncommon conversation:

"Six Papa Charlie taking 17"
"You got birds over the numbers on upwind"
"Would be shocked if I didn't"


We got coyotes here
:D
 
I know nothing whatsoever about how the human body functions, but isn't a 91 saturation level approaching the low side of desirable?
 
I think the feeling comes on at higher altitudes because the motion of the ground goes away. You just seem suspended.

That could be it.

I generally cruise 5-6K ft, but a few years ago coming back east from KOSH VFR, I wanted to get over the scattered cum's and get out of the muggy, bumpy air. Stepped up to 7500, no different than normal cruise. Needed to go up more to stay clear of clouds, up to 9500. I definitely felt uneasy that high up. I've mentioned it to other pilot friends and they admitted to the same uneasy feeling.

Seeing the airspeed degrade, even though I knew intellectually that it would based on the lower density, was a contribution.

I wouldn't hesitate to fly that high again. Like anything else, it's probably just something to get used to.
 
Maybe that will subside after you do it a few times? Kind of like the first steep turn I ever did, kinda freaked me out lol. Now I love doing them.

Yeah, that and full stalls.
 
The only time I've experienced something like that was when cave-diving, and it was not so much a "fear" or even a "feeling of unease" as it was the recognition that you are very much dependent upon only yourself and your equipment for survival. If something goes wrong there is nobody there holding your hand to make it better - you have to cope with the problem in an effective manner, or you're going to be in the morning paper. It really brings home the fact that you can kill yourself doing this stuff if you aren't careful. I clearly remember being about 50 feet down in reduced visibility about 100 yards inside a cave only about 10 feet wide, and thinking to myself "Don't screw up here, it won't end well." One deep breath and a slow look around me, keep your head straight and your brain on track.

For flying it's pretty much an irrational fear - everytime you lift off the runway you are already at a lethal speed, so your life is in jeopardy pretty much from 5 seconds after you push the power up on the takeoff roll until you make the turn off the runway after landing. Everything you do in between (or fail to do) has a possibility of killing you, and it's up to each of us to be an active participant in the process to avoid that most permanent of endings. Just making the choice to be an aviator inherently means we accept that risk and will deal with it, and accept the consequences if we fail. That's what separates pilots from passengers.
 
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This is why I like 12,500' and above. Strap on 02, climb to 17,500' and break out the news paper. :lol: ;)

I guess if the auto-pilot fails and my alarm clock doesn't wake me at TOD, I'd be nervous;)

Made me feel better. I do NOT like heights, especially climbing onto the roof from a ladder and that sort of thing.

Well, that bugs me also because my roof is 22 feet and the aluminum ladder is a little shaky even though it'll extend to 30 feet. That and the mexican tiles shift a little as I am transitioning from ladder to roof and back.
 
Wow, thank you all. I think we're onto several things. I believe it is partly a matter of 'aloneness'. I usually cruise at 10.5 or 11.5 for the economy and winds. And, I often fly over the desert west, and mountain west. Also the controls are not as firm or responsive as down low with decent speed. My stomach is ok, I have done plenty of low level flights with no problem, and plenty of acro so that's not it.

Just like things are floating along, but there's something, something going on that I don't know about. If you've ever seen the old twilight Zone where the monster is on the wing tearing it off, and only one guy can see it, it's kind of like that, but not as serious. Best I can explain is vague unease, not nausea, or illness, just that things could go horribly wrong, and I would spend a minute or so tumbling down, down, down into an abyss.

Weird. Seems I'm not completely alone with it either.
Some of Shatner's best acting.
 
I think the feeling comes on at higher altitudes because the motion of the ground goes away. You just seem suspended.

We've started flying the Eagle Flights along with our Young Eagles. took one of the parents up a couple weeks ago, cruising at 1500 agl, doing about 110 kts....her obsegation....feels and looks like we're going so slow!
 
Have you checked your estrogen levels?
Now that was tacky! you need to come to Denver and take an acro lesson with....Dagmar. In her Pitts. or watch her compete in her Extra.
 
I've experienced acro in an Extra. Did pretty much everything except outside loops. No uneasiness, not even when were were over 6Gs
 
Some of Shatner's best acting.

Didn't you mean over-acting? But I agree. ;)

The subject of O2 was going to come up, but I tested that pretty carefully and have discounted it for three main reasons.

A. I'm a skier, and I have a place in the mtns of CO, so I'm aware of hypoxia, and never had any issues even at the top of A Basin, etc.

B. With hypoxia, it's usually a feeling of euphoria, or elation and I'm having just the opposite.

C. Over the course of 1.5 hours, I tried O2 several times, and the feeling didn't change a bit. At first I figured it was related to O2, but have set that aside. I feel fine physically at 91% sat, and no different at all with higher. Maybe it would be different at night, but so far it's all the same on or off O2.
 
Wow, thank you all. I think we're onto several things. I believe it is partly a matter of 'aloneness'. I usually cruise at 10.5 or 11.5 for the economy and winds. And, I often fly over the desert west, and mountain west. Also the controls are not as firm or responsive as down low with decent speed. My stomach is ok, I have done plenty of low level flights with no problem, and plenty of acro so that's not it.

Just like things are floating along, but there's something, something going on that I don't know about. If you've ever seen the old twilight Zone where the monster is on the wing tearing it off, and only one guy can see it, it's kind of like that, but not as serious. Best I can explain is vague unease, not nausea, or illness, just that things could go horribly wrong, and I would spend a minute or so tumbling down, down, down into an abyss.

Weird. Seems I'm not completely alone with it either.

We humans pick up on all sorts of weird feelings all the time and usually we shrug it off as nonsense. But if one of those ill feelings sticks in your mind it can become pretty distracting and difficult to ignore. One cure might be to make a few flights a lot higher than 9000 (with o2 of course) so that coming back down to that level on subsequent flight might seem closer to "normal".

The only other thing you might want to consider is a CO detector. You're more likely to use cabin heat up high and it wouldn't take much of an exhaust leak to make you feel abnormal. CO2 exposure will not show up as low O2 sat either. This isn't very likely but probably worth checking out.
 
Ya know whats weird though and I just realized it.
It is not a problem if I am above the clouds.

I think it has something to do with seeing the world and realizing just how far you are from it.

Good post I agree with others, I think it's the aloneness. I've experienced it at 8.5 but interestingly not at 17,000. I recall once at FL 210 feeling a bit on edge because I was obsessed with my O2 sat and the fact that it seemed so damn quiet up there. The quiet was somewhat disconcerting.

I found the shadow of the cloud on the ground so I knew I was not under a forming towering cumulous, but still uncomfortable climbing at over 1000' pm.

-John

John how would seeing a shadow let you know you were not under a TCU?
 
Good post I agree with others, I think it's the aloneness. I've experienced it at 8.5 but interestingly not at 17,000. I recall once at FL 210 feeling a bit on edge because I was obsessed with my O2 sat and the fact that it seemed so damn quiet up there. The quiet was somewhat disconcerting.



John how would seeing a shadow let you know you were not under a TCU?

I could see the shadow of the entire cloud, it was only a thousand yards or so wide. had it been a TC, the shadow would have been much larger on the ground. I was flying through our low California mountains at the time.

All I remember about it was clearly seeing the shadow and feeling a little relieved. I was at about the halfway point of being past it.

TCs in that area can form fairly fast, they do get big.

-John
 
Interesting. I have a big fear of heights, yet flying a plane doesn't bother me in the least. But looking over the edge of building, anything above 3 floors has my stomach doing the frug. :vomit:

Same here. The higher the better and my DA20 loves 12000'+. But we're all wired differently. :yesnod:
 
I like 8500 or 9500 VFR on long x-country.

It suits the terrain mostly around here, and I don't need O2. And it doesn't give me that "I can barely see land!" feeling or any aches and pains on these older bones. I have no problem with heights if the right safety precautions are there. I used to climb for power companies, I have done crane basket and helo work on big lines. But I get the same uneasy feeling in the skywagon past a certain point.

I think a large part of it is in the back of my head, that voice which is whispering you must stay more diligent at watching out for hypoxia and CO2 in the cabin and such. Another task and headache (literally altitude sickness) that I don't need or want. :redface:
 
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Channeling Manilow; feeeeeeeelings,,, nothing more than feeeeeeeeeelings.

Ahem - back to our regular program. I've noticed before, and again a few days ago that when I fly low, around 3-6k altitudes, I'm comfy, almost complacent about the flight. No stress, no strain, or anything like the tight sphincter of unease.

However, when I fly above 9000 feet, I get this strange feeling of some kind of insecurity or vague unease. Hmmmmmm. I snorted some O2 finally cause I thought it would be related to Oxygen deprivation, but I checked my SpO2 sat and was getting about 91 without the O2 snort, and up to 98 with it. I left the O2 running for about 30 minutes, and would still get the same feeling.

It's hard to pin down, not like anything I've had before. I can look down and when the ground is nearly 2 miles away, I get a strange sensation that if something went wrong, I would be in greater danger than if I was at low altitude. In fact, I like doing very low level flight.

I know empirically that flying higher is generally safer unless one is on fire, but the strange sensation like I was on my own up there(which I was), and anything that goes wrong will be unquestionably fatal.

Anyone had this before? Wondering if it's just fear of heights, or fear of being alone, or other psychosomatic deal or if I'm just being too critical? Never had any history of trouble up there, but it's one of those nagging things that won't seem to go away. Hmmmmmm. :loco:


Mental illness,:D You have a mild form of what my wife had, I had to fly between the trees with her. Down next to the ground, she was fine, 1000' white knuckles, 5000' shaking, 10,000' crying. She understood the intellectual realities of the safety of altitude and the hazard of being low, her dad was an AF test pilot, she grew up on Edwards AFB. Still though, she couldn't control it.
 
I'll chime in here too on this. I second the OP's comments. I am not afraid of heights, per se, but I am deathly afraid of falling. I get the willies around the edge of a high building, even seeing a "fallable" situation on TV gets my stomach in a knot. My wife thinks it's silly that I'm "afraid of heights" (not necessarily) but love to fly.

I do get very uneasy (not afraid) at higher altitudes, only when I fly (commercial doesn't bother me). I prefer 3000' to 8000' any day. I'll only go up that high if winds favor doing so... and even then, not really enjoying the ride, but doing it because I need to. Logically, I know it's much safer higher up, but I can't quantify why I don't care for it. I read through the thread earlier on and saw that it could be the solitary effect, or the effect of not seeing the land move beneath you. That could be it... don't really know. Maybe it's because the plane sounds different that high? I don't know.

My 2 cents... There are others out there with the same feelings!
 
Sorry to resurrect a Zombie Thread, but I think I found the answer to why you experienced these feelings, and it is not just you, this is caused by the "Break-off" phenomena which apparently has been known since there 50's but not widely studied

http://www.fastcoexist.com/3036887/...s-mental-side-effects-of-traveling-into-space

Normally, I would just brush this off, but that was an excellent treatise, and I think has some relevance. Very well researched and written with interesting links too! Thanks for finding and posting. Even if no one is interested in the phenomenon, this is a great article.

<I also really like the selfie in the cockpit of the SR-71. That's the kind of pic I'd like to blow up to 4x5' and hang in my hangar.>
 
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Normally, I would just brush this off, but that was an excellent treatise, and I think has some relevance. Very well researched and written with interesting links too! Thanks for finding and posting. Even if no one is interested in the phenomenon, this is a great article.

Yeah, that was a good read and agree that there is relevance. It also sounds like it would be a disqualifying condition.:eek:
 
Yeah, that was a good read and agree that there is relevance. It also sounds like it would be a disqualifying condition.:eek:

Why don't you ****-off out of my thread there DOCTOR?
 
Why don't you ****-off out of my thread there DOCTOR?

If I conclude that, so would others, just pointing out that since you are on a public forum. I'm not saying you should be disqualified, just that if it came up it would cause problems.
 
Channeling Manilow; feeeeeeeelings,,, nothing more than feeeeeeeeeelings.

Ahem - back to our regular program. I've noticed before, and again a few days ago that when I fly low, around 3-6k altitudes, I'm comfy, almost complacent about the flight. No stress, no strain, or anything like the tight sphincter of unease.

However, when I fly above 9000 feet,.....

I get this strange feeling of some kind of insecurity or vague unease..........


I like it down low, tree top level on local flight..., X country in my plane, I usually get as close to 17,500 as I can in case the Ford hiccups...

In my friends CJ-4.... I love the way the world looks at 450... Wish it was certified up to 510 like a few other biz jets...
 
I am a Dr. and an AME and I would not consider this in any way a "disqualifying condition", as it is a phenomenon which can effect many pilots...akin to hypoxia, it can effect us all and it is important to educate pilots about hypoxia and this Break Off phenomenon.
 
Another treatment of 'break-off' and the 'overview effect'. I find this stuff fascinating. Both as a pilot, and more importantly as a philosopher. It brings out some of the core questions that philosophy deals with on a grand scale; Why are we here? Are we alone? What is mankind's destiny? The interactions(or lack thereof) of humans on a massive scale. Also the perceptions of modern people when they absolutely know they are truly alone, and cannot be touched, contacted or interfaced any way with another human. No one knows you're up there, no one is looking, scanning, or observing. It also reminds me of sections of Kon-Tiki by Heyerdahl and some of is reflections on sailing and isolation.

http://www.academia.edu/5995107/Rethinking_the_Overview_Effect
 
I am not afraid of heights, per se, but I am deathly afraid of falling. I get the willies around the edge of a high building, even seeing a "fallable" situation on TV gets my stomach in a knot.


Same, I can fly all day but just watching this stresses me out.
My hands are sweating having just watched about half of it

 
I think the feeling comes on at higher altitudes because the motion of the ground goes away. You just seem suspended.
I think that's it. I used to get that uneasy feeling sometimes in my little T'craft, sort'a like I was sitting balanced on top of a flagpole.
 
I honestly can't watch the whole thing. It gives me a little panic attack.
 
I get the willies when I look down at 5000 feet or higher, as in, I'll grab at the panel to hold on.

Just don't look directly down.

It doesn't help when you get to 12,000 feet or so and the plane - teetering between stall and dive - is handling like you're balancing a broom.
 
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