V22 Osprey

Catalo

Pre-takeoff checklist
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Hi, So I live in the surface shelf of the O'hare bravo so today while the president was in town I had V22's flying over my head. My question is how exactly do they work? Wikipedia says they are tilt-rotar aircraft. So with that being said do you need a fixed wing, rotary wing or special rating in order to fly one. I understand they are military aircraft's so they train you but I'm just curious
 
I think they use to pull air force pilots for those out of the helicopter track but I think they are starting to pull them from the heavy tanker/cargo track as well. As far as the FAA goes you would get the "powered-lift" rating. I remember someone saying that have some fancy computers to stabalize it and that the two engines are connected to a common gearbox so if you loose one engine, the other engine will power both rotars. Most of it is still a mystery to me.
 
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It's a "powered lift" FAA rating. Not that Osprey pilots require a rating because they're in the military. If they want to seek the rating on the side, it's up to them.

Not sure if the track requires helos out of flight school or fixed wing though. I work with a pilot who flys civilian helos and is going through the Osprey transition right now in the Marines. He flew H-46s prior to that.

Yeah, what Gucci said.
 
The Kings have a video for the v22 rating. It's funny to see the edited scenes switching back and forth between old Martha and young Martha.
 
Wonder what happens to those when an engine fails. In airplane mode can you feather the bad one? I'm guessing you have to transition to helicopter mode and autorotate.
 
Wonder what happens to those when an engine fails. In airplane mode can you feather the bad one? I'm guessing you have to transition to helicopter mode and autorotate.

It can't autorotate safely below 1600 ft. It can however hover on one engine while still supplying thrust to the other rotor. Obviously there is an altitude & weight limit with that capability.
 
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so then it's in its own class of aircraft and its a special rating
 
Wonder what happens to those when an engine fails. In airplane mode can you feather the bad one? I'm guessing you have to transition to helicopter mode and autorotate.

the 2 rotors are connected so that either engine can power both sides. losing an engine in airplane mode without this would be bad, but losing one in a hover would be instacrash.
 
so then it's in its own class of aircraft and its a special rating

as far as i know there are none in operation outside the military so it doesn't have nor need any kind of faa rating. as others said, if it were in civilian operation it would fall under powered lift. It takes off and lands basically as a helicopter, so that's probably the closest "normal" category.
 
as far as i know there are none in operation outside the military so it doesn't have nor need any kind of faa rating. as others said, if it were in civilian operation it would fall under powered lift. It takes off and lands basically as a helicopter, so that's probably the closest "normal" category.
It's in the FARs as "powered lift" as the others have said. And there is someone working on a civilian tilt rotor I think.

Edit : after Google it's the AW609
 
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The new guys into the V-22 (at least on the USMC side) go through both rotary wing advanced in pensacola (in the TH-57B/C, ie the Bell jet ranger) and then "multiengine" advanced in corpus christi (in the T-44 or TC-12, both variants of the King Air). They get their wings after that and then go through initial plopter training in New River, NC. At this point, most of the guys from the CH-46 community are going through conversion training in the V-22 as well, as the Phrog is being retired in the coming year or two. So those folks had no real fixed wing multiengine training at any point. One of my best buds just got back from said course and is V-22 qual'd now in a squadron that is making the transition, coming from a -46 background. They are weird airplanes.......not slow but not fast......big but can't carry much......don't have much in the way of crew served weapons......kind of helos but not really. I'm sure the thing will come into its own at some point, but I don't know that it is really a very good direct replacement for what the -46 did. I think V-22 types as well as AV-8B can qualify for a powered lift certificate, but I don't think that means very much at this point since there is really nothing on the civilian side that needs such a ticket.
 
9000 foot per minute climb rate with those huge props. They are a ton of fun to watch.

Fun to fly on as well. What a ride that was over Baghdad and Ramadi!

This thing gets you in fast, gets on the ground quickly and gets out of the way. It was so much fun.
 
Fun to fly on as well. What a ride that was over Baghdad and Ramadi!

This thing gets you in fast, gets on the ground quickly and gets out of the way. It was so much fun.
They look like it. They confuse the hell out of me though.
 
They get their wings after that and then go through initial plopter training in New River, NC. At this point, most of the guys from the CH-46 community are going through conversion training in the V-22 as well

I was in Tampa a few weeks ago and had a few cocktails at the airport hotel bar with two marine V22 pilots based at new river. Believe they both transitioned from the CH-46.

22 looks like a lot of fun to fly. I fish a lot on the NC coast and have been buzzed a few times by the ospreys
 
To answer several questions...

For civilian flying, it's a "Powered-Lift", which is a category like Airplane or Rotorcraft, not a class. However, since there is no PL aircraft yet certified by the FAA, the FAA is not yet issuing PL ratings. Someone in the PHL FSDO issued some to test pilots flying the V-22 at the Boeing plant there, but HQ put a stop to that. I understand that they didn't pull those half-dozen or so ratings, but no more will be issued until the Agusta/Westland 609 (originally the Bell/Agusta 609, but Bell pulled out and Agusta got Westland Helicopters to replace them) is certified. Note that the AW609 is a much smaller aircraft, carrying around 6-9 passengers and grossing out about 10,000 lb compared to the V-22's 33,000 or so.

If one engine fails, the engine is disengaged from the gearbox in that nacelle. There is a large diameter hollow cross-shaft which runs all the way across the wing to transfer power from the gearbox on the good engine to the gearbox on the dead side giving equal power both ways. I suspect Boeing stole a lot of ideas from the CH-46/47 tandem rotor designs to do this. Just like any other ME aircraft, it loses a lot of performance, but at least you don't have the asymmetric power problems you see on conventional twin-engine airplanes. If you're in airplane mode, you stay there and land on a runway. If you're in helo mode, you either autorotate or transition to wing-borne flight, depending on where you are in the lift/speed envelope.

The flight control system is indeed fully computerized with fly-by-wire control.

IIRC, the V-22 can carry 40 combat-loaded troops.

The V-22 has a very large array of survivability features which both reduce its signatures and enable it to take a lot of hits and still make it home. I worked on that part of the program for about 8 years back in the 90's.

And it has two Allison T406 engines, which is the same basic engine of which four power the C-130J.
 
If you're in airplane mode, you stay there and land on a runway.

Ronnie,
A good overall summary except for that last part. How exactly does one land on a runway in airplane mode with those nacelles all the way forward ?
 
If you're in airplane mode, you stay there and land on a runway. If you're in helo mode, you either autorotate or transition to wing-borne flight, depending on where you are in the lift/speed envelope.

When you say land on a runway, do you mean they are supposed to try to land like a conventional plane by killing the remaining engine and sacrificing the props, or find a runway, transition to chopper mode and then autorotate to the runway? I assume it can't land in proper helicopter mode normally with just one engine?

"Powered Lift" just sounds like an FAA catch all for whatever aircraft engineers come up with in the future that doesn't fit one of the established categories. It seems if it were specific to this type of aircraft, it would be call the "Tilt Rotor" rating, or something like that. "Powered Lift" pretty much applies to everything in the sky except gliders, balloons and airships.
 
Ronnie,
A good overall summary except for that last part. How exactly does one land on a runway in airplane mode with those nacelles all the way forward ?
You rotate them partway up (like 70 degrees or something like that) and land with some forward speed to provide some lift. At least that's what they told us when I was working on the program 20 years ago.
 
Hi, So I live in the surface shelf of the O'hare bravo so today while the president was in town I had V22's flying over my head. My question is how exactly do they work? Wikipedia says they are tilt-rotar aircraft. So with that being said do you need a fixed wing, rotary wing or special rating in order to fly one. I understand they are military aircraft's so they train you but I'm just curious

"How do they work" With lots of $$$$$$$$$$$:yes:
 
image.jpgI'm a fan of the Osprey but I don't look at it like some wonder aircraft like some do.

Yes, it's a safe aircraft now. That myth had been disproven years ago. Reliable? Depends on who you talk to. You hear reports of the books being cooked to show OR rates higher than actual. Operating costs at 10K / hr are still almost twice of what was promised originally. At over 70 million a pop, you can buy and C-130 and operate it at roughly the same costs.

Some of the other concerns I have pertain to vulnerability. A 7.62 machine gun mounted on the bottom of the aircraft just can't replace a door gunner. Not gonna happen. I don't care about the lack of autorotation capability but I'm not sure I like the idea of an engine nacelle that far out from the CG with an interconnecting transmission going to it. Yes, it can hover on one engine but you take out the engine and connecting drive shaft at a hover and she'll be on her back in a hurry. Take out an engine or tail rotor drive shaft on a conventional helo and you can do a hovering auto. I think survivabiliy from a MANPAD goes to a conventional helicopter as well. The core of the heat signature is blocked by the fuse in most helos and impact from a missile won't necessarily end in complete destruction.

Then there's the vortex ring state issue. I don't think they've really solved the problem so much as they've just limited the aircraft's flight profile on landing. Although I keep hearing they can come in hot to an LZ, I haven't seen this first hand. At least not to the effect that a conventional helicopter can rapidly flare and decel for landing. Along with the VRS issue, I have concerns on its ability to do formation landings in confined areas. Haven't seen one do a mountain pinnacle insertion / extraction yet either. Not that it couldn't do a two wheel landing on a ridge, I just think it would be extremely difficult in a tilt rotor configuration.

The speed and range have significant advantages over helicopters. No doubt about that but not as great as one would think. Deep insertion capability was never a high priority in the last two wars. While the V-22s proponents will tout the Osprey eliminates the need for FARPs everywhere, that's just unrealistic. You still have a need for FARPs everywhere because we still use conventional helicopters. Not to mention most assault missions were well within helicopter ranges without the use of a FARP. Throw external tanks on the helicopter and you can re supply / troop transport most of the day without hitting a FARP.

Where the V-22 shines is long range CSAR. Proven in Libya with the downed F-15E a few years ago. It also makes for a good stand off platform for the Marines operating from LHDs. I think you could have a strong argument for a MEDEVAC aircraft. Only thing I'd be concerned of is its response time. No idea how long it would take a crew to spool up and get airborne.

Fortunately the Army waited out the V-22. Now that the bugs have been worked out Bell has learned from the mistakes in the V-22 and implemented changes to the V-280. Not doubt a needed replacement for aging legacy helos but I'd rather see them go with the coaxial design for its future vertical lift (FVL) program such as the Defiant and the Raider.
 
I suspect the V22 will be the last Marine-driven acquisition in my lifetime.
Negative unless you are planning on checking out in the near future.

The H-53K (composite airframe) is currently in progress and very much USMC driven.
 
Fun to fly on as well. What a ride that was over Baghdad and Ramadi!

This thing gets you in fast, gets on the ground quickly and gets out of the way. It was so much fun.
I don't know if I'd call it fun. I think interesting would be a better description.

After several years of riding USN/USMC helos out to ships, I got my first ride in a -22 two years ago out of New River going out to a ship.

On takeoff, it was the most unnatural feeling I have ever experienced in an aircraft. The best way to describe it was like riding on a lame horse trying to gallop. It just wallowed along the runway until it lifted off. The one cool aspect was when they transitioned to full forward flight. You could seriously feel the acceleration as it picked up speed. Not catapult thrust, but a lot more noticeable than any other fixed wing I've flown.

It still flies funny though - they had the tail door partially open (thank God, because they blocked all the emergency exits with cargo) and you could watch the back wag/fish-tail along the whole flight. The vertical landing on the ship didn't seem much different from the helos I've ridden.

The Marines do like the speed - much faster to conduct an airborne operation with -22s than -46s. As far as reliability, that is up for debate. They are maintenance intensive. When I was working on the ESG 5 staff a few years ago, their operational availability was about the same as the legacy -46s....which isn't great comparing the decades of age disparity between the two airframes.

So, we basically got much better performance for the same operational availability at a much higher cost.
 
Wonder what happens to those when an engine fails. In airplane mode can you feather the bad one? I'm guessing you have to transition to helicopter mode and autorotate.

They have a drive shaft that runs between both nacelles, there is no "feather" mode as it can't land in a translational mode because of the disc diameter.
 
Some of the other concerns I have pertain to vulnerability. A 7.62 machine gun mounted on the bottom of the aircraft just can't replace a door gunner.
Weaponry has nothing to do with vulnerability, which is considers only the effects of externally-applied man-made weapons on the aircraft, not its ability to inflict damage on other targets.
I don't care about the lack of autorotation capability but I'm not sure I like the idea of an engine nacelle that far out from the CG with an interconnecting transmission going to it. Yes, it can hover on one engine but you take out the engine and connecting drive shaft at a hover and she'll be on her back in a hurry.
I studied that exact issue 20 years ago while working as a contractor. Without going into classified details, there is nothing which can take out both one engine and the cross-shaft without pretty well destroying the whole aircraft, at which point it really doesn't matter. And it takes a bloody big warhead to do that.

I think survivabiliy from a MANPAD goes to a conventional helicopter as well. The core of the heat signature is blocked by the fuse in most helos
I guess you're not familiar with the IR signature reduction features on the V-22.

and impact from a missile won't necessarily end in complete destruction.
You've never done any ballistic vulnerability studies on US combat helos or the V-22, have you? I have, and I can tell you the V-22 is ballistically harder than many helos, including to the MANPAD threat.
 
I don't know if I'd call it fun. I think interesting would be a better description.

After several years of riding USN/USMC helos out to ships, I got my first ride in a -22 two years ago out of New River going out to a ship.

On takeoff, it was the most unnatural feeling I have ever experienced in an aircraft. The best way to describe it was like riding on a lame horse trying to gallop. It just wallowed along the runway until it lifted off. The one cool aspect was when they transitioned to full forward flight. You could seriously feel the acceleration as it picked up speed. Not catapult thrust, but a lot more noticeable than any other fixed wing I've flown.

It still flies funny though - they had the tail door partially open (thank God, because they blocked all the emergency exits with cargo) and you could watch the back wag/fish-tail along the whole flight. The vertical landing on the ship didn't seem much different from the helos I've ridden.

The Marines do like the speed - much faster to conduct an airborne operation with -22s than -46s. As far as reliability, that is up for debate. They are maintenance intensive. When I was working on the ESG 5 staff a few years ago, their operational availability was about the same as the legacy -46s....which isn't great comparing the decades of age disparity between the two airframes.

So, we basically got much better performance for the same operational availability at a much higher cost.
Much better flight than most -47s and ALL -46s I've ever been inserted or transported on.

Count me in if they ever need ballast on a flight. It might be different not being in body armor and loaded with ammo but i can't say unless try it.
 
Weaponry has nothing to do with vulnerability, which is considers only the effects of externally-applied man-made weapons on the aircraft, not its ability to inflict damage on other targets.
I studied that exact issue 20 years ago while working as a contractor. Without going into classified details, there is nothing which can take out both one engine and the cross-shaft without pretty well destroying the whole aircraft, at which point it really doesn't matter. And it takes a bloody big warhead to do that.

I guess you're not familiar with the IR signature reduction features on the V-22.

You've never done any ballistic vulnerability studies on US combat helos or the V-22, have you? I have, and I can tell you the V-22 is ballistically harder than many helos, including to the MANPAD threat.


The aircraft is vulnerable on its flanks due to the fact it doesn't have door gunners in those areas. I'm not talking about offensive weapons, I'm talking defensive and covering the assault force. You can't cover the assault force with a belly mounted 7.62. On a conventional helicopter the door gunners can provide covering fire to the flanks over the heads of the assaulting force. Don't call it a vulnerability call it a weakness if you will.

Some how I don't think the nacelle will survive an RPG. Don't care what classified information you may have.

As far as IR signature, it uses the same type of passive IR reduction as helos. It also uses the same type off active countermeasures as helos. All of which are not 100 % effective from MANPADs or SAMs. Just ask a Stinger crew on that. Better yet, ask a Javelin crew.

As far as being ballistically harder from MANPADs what high MANPAD threat have they even experienced? There wasn't one in Afghanistan and they showed up too late in Iraq. They've been shot at before but not to the extent helos were. As far as being hit and surviving, a friend of mine took an SA-7 to the exhaust of a Black Hawk and kept on flying. He had to make a PL but everyone survived.

Oh yeah, another weakness; 5,400 ft HOGE altitude. That severely degrades any type of real mountain pinnacle ops.
 
The aircraft is vulnerable on its flanks due to the fact it doesn't have door gunners in those areas.
Lack of door gunners doesn't create "vulnerability" as that term is defined in the aircraft survivability world. "Survivability" is the capability of an aircraft to [FONT=QMVIQF+Palatino-LightItalic,Palatino][FONT=QMVIQF+Palatino-LightItalic,Palatino]avoid and/or withstand [/FONT][/FONT]a man made hostile environment. Survivability has two components:

  • Susceptibility - the inability to avoid being hit by a weapon, including both avoiding detection and avoiding being hit once detected.
  • Vulnerability - the inability to withstand the hit.
Door gunners do not reduce vulnerability, other than perhaps by the shielding of critical components by the door gunner's body.

I'm not talking about offensive weapons, I'm talking defensive and covering the assault force. You can't cover the assault force with a belly mounted 7.62. On a conventional helicopter the door gunners can provide covering fire to the flanks over the heads of the assaulting force. Don't call it a vulnerability call it a weakness if you will.
Call it anything you want -- it has nothing to do with the combat survivability of the V-22.

As far as IR signature, it uses the same type of passive IR reduction as helos. It also uses the same type off active countermeasures as helos. All of which are not 100 % effective from MANPADs or SAMs. Just ask a Stinger crew on that. Better yet, ask a Javelin crew.
I gather you don't have detailed expertise on the signature reduction features of these various aircraft, either.

Thanks.
 
Lack of door gunners doesn't create "vulnerability" as that term is defined in the aircraft survivability world. "Survivability" is the capability of an aircraft to [FONT=QMVIQF+Palatino-LightItalic,Palatino][FONT=QMVIQF+Palatino-LightItalic,Palatino]avoid and/or withstand [/FONT][/FONT]a man made hostile environment. Survivability has two components:

  • Susceptibility - the inability to avoid being hit by a weapon, including both avoiding detection and avoiding being hit once detected.
  • Vulnerability - the inability to withstand the hit.
Door gunners do not reduce vulnerability, other than perhaps by the shielding of critical components by the door gunner's body.

Call it anything you want -- it has nothing to do with the combat survivability of the V-22.

I gather you don't have detailed expertise on the signature reduction features of these various aircraft, either.

Thanks.

Lol! No Ron, of course I don't have any experience on signature reduction on various aircraft. Since I only flew in the Army only 3 years ago so I'd say my experience if far more up to date than yours. You think we don't recieve classified briefs on aircraft survivability?

Also, comparing a study done 20 yrs ago on the survivability of a V-22 vs a helo is completely invalid. A Black Hawk 20 yrs ago was a sitting duck compared to one today. There's been significant upgrades in both passive and active IR countermeasures since then. Due to the cancellation of the RAH-66, an enormous amount of resources have poured into ASE. Just within the last 2 yrs there has been upgrades.

If you don't want to admit the aircraft has weaknesses, fine go ahead and spin it into something else. At least I can admit there are pro and cons from both airframe categories.
 
Call it anything you want -- it has nothing to do with the combat survivability of the V-22.

I understand your point regarding the definition of "survivability." But that isn't to say that combat troop support isn't an issue worthy consideration.
 
Much better flight than most -47s and ALL -46s I've ever been inserted or transported on.

To each his own. I much preferred the ride of the -46 over the -22. I also felt safer (better egress for pax IMO).
 
The -22's are so freakin' loud you could probably design a warhead to home-in on its noise signature.
 
I felt like i had the worlds biggest egg beater strapped to my back. ;)

Sent from my SPH-L900 using Tapatalk
 
If you don't want to admit the aircraft has weaknesses, fine go ahead and spin it into something else.
I never said it didn't.

At least I can admit there are pro and cons from both airframe categories.
And I never said otherwise. But I did object to your abuse of the terminology involved. You clearly have strong opinions on the overall effectiveness of the V-22 (on which aircraft I doubt you as an Army helicopter pilot received classified briefings about its survivability characteristics, especially its signature reduction features), but please don't say that lack of a door gunner has a significant effect on its vulnerability.
 
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I understand your point regarding the definition of "survivability." But that isn't to say that combat troop support isn't an issue worthy consideration.
I'm sure it is. But that's not an issue of either survivability or vulnerability, and the V-22 has other areas where it is a lot more effective than any helicopter currently operational. "Horses for courses", and all that.
 
I'm sure it is. But that's not an issue of either survivability or vulnerability, and the V-22 has other areas where it is a lot more effective than any helicopter currently operational. "Horses for courses", and all that.

Understood. I see the V-22 as a really unique aircraft that is just scratching the surface of the concept's capabilities. It fulfills a unique role. Later iterations will take it much further.
 
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