Using the windsock

steingar said:
Drive your car down the freeway. Then go drive it at the same speed across an open field. You tell me which is more likely to damage your vehicle.
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I've driven M1A1 Tanks at high speed across open ground with nary and issue.

Cars don't do as well. Why?

Design.

A/C gear is tough - really tough.

Consider this -- Do you think some up down bumpiness over 30 seconds does more damage than a drop-in arrival on pavement from 4' AGL?
 
steingar said:
Drive your car down the freeway. Then go drive it at the same speed across an open field. You tell me which is more likely to damage your vehicle.
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Go drop your car onto a nice turf field from 5-10 AGL and then drop that same car on a nice runway and tell me which one does more damage.


Not so great eh?
 
elmetal said:
Go drop your car onto a nice turf field from 5-10 AGL and then drop that same car on a nice runway and tell me which one does more damage.


Not so great eh?
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Not how I land my airplane, but to each his own.
 
steingar said:
Not how I land my airplane, but to each his own.
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Not how I land mine either, I was just pointing out the fact that your comparison is as flawed as mine.

It just doesn't apply when comparing apples to oranges (or airplanes to cars if you want)
 
steingar said:
Drive your car down the freeway. Then go drive it at the same speed across an open field. You tell me which is more likely to damage your vehicle.
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Can you try another example? I don't think that one has much instructive value nor is it apples to apples.

You'd never drive a car (and mine is lower than most) over rough surfaces at a speed above what's appropriate for the surface. But I have taken my vehicle over triple digits on the appropriate surface.
 
Jaybird180 said:
Can you try another example? I don't think that one has much instructive value nor is it apples to apples.

You'd never drive a car (and mine is lower than most) over rough surfaces at a speed above what's appropriate for the surface. But I have taken my vehicle over triple digits on the appropriate surface.
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Michael is assuming that the rumble bumps of a turf field are somehow hard on the airplane.

Yet a paved surface can be rough (WV62 is, for example), and the rollout on a paved surface will nearly always be longer than on grass (unless it's wet or icy -- different problem).

So -- rollout on smooth, paved surface may be 400' (no brakes)
Same touchdown speed, etc on turf rollout may be half (200', no brakes).

So... light bumps for a twice as long probably cause as much "damage" as half the distance.

If that's too long an explanation -- My airplane is 71 years old, and probably landed on grass 90% of its landings.

While it's far from perfect, neither my A&P-IA or I could detect any "damage" caused by grass fields. In fact, he suggested I land on grass whenever possible if I wanted to keep the brakes for another 10 years.
 
Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe said:
KOSC

Remarks:
DURG DALGT HRS TAILWINDS MAY EXIST OVER APCH ENDS RY 06 & 24 SIMULTANEOUSLY
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LOL! Sounds like that's another good reason to land on the grass... I had a guy takeoff from the grass at AQO today in a 170. It was his first time on the grass. Funny how nervous it made him, but he decided it was OK after doing it.
Yeah, there are some airports that are just, well... different. I know that can be the case even at 5C1 at times. Those ridges, hangars, etc... can cause some odd winds in odd places.

Ryan
 
Listen to the incredible, terrifying pounding this plane gets landing on the grass! OMG, Oh NoZ!

 
SCCutler said:
Listen to the incredible, terrifying pounding this plane gets landing on the grass! OMG, Oh NoZ!
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The horror....

5%5B4%5D.jpg
 
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Who wants to volunteer to tell Bob Bement that his airplane isn't suitable for unpaved runways?
 
This past summer I made the mistake of trusting the AWOS at ERY. It always seems to have strong winds
I knew we had a med./strong wind, I set up for 22 Awos said wind 24 12-15kts.
,I corrected I guess more than I thought, 22 is grass 2900ft., touched down perfect,started to roll out then all H___ broke loose as I took corrected pressure off the controls. Probably had more speed than I needed.
The wind that was strong and (actually coming down 29) pushed the tail sideways, well let's just say I was all over the place.
I will now always check the windsock.
No one was in the pattern before me to tell what way they were landing,but as my knee's were still knocking as a Mooney made a beautiful landing on 29.
BTW the wind actually turned out to be 290 at 17-21 kts.
Lesson learned ,WHEW!!!
Check the windsock ,that's the actual . Also pay close attention to the correction you have in for Xwinds.
Yeah I'm still learning and have no problems admitting it.
 
Turf strips are so much better. That's why they've proliferated everywhere and are used by everyone, despite the increased expense :D (smiley added since no doubt someone's sarcasm meter is busted).

Enough for me. Obviously, you guys like landing turf, so it has to be better. I don't mind turf one bit. I just dislike BS.
 
steingar said:
Turf strips are so much better. That's why they've proliferated everywhere and are used by everyone, despite the increased expense :D (smiley added since no doubt someone's sarcasm meter is busted).

Enough for me. Obviously, you guys like landing turf, so it has to be better. I don't mind turf one bit. I just dislike BS.
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Paved runways are the result of civic improvement campaigns and federal largess, not necessarily the best interest of GA pilots.

:no:

Turf runways are subject to sogginess and downright muddiness in some areas.

But turf fields could have saved you a lot of time mastering crosswind landing techniques.

:thumbsup:
 
I have turf in my front yard. If I go more than 10 MPH on my JD top of the line mower, I get shaken quite a bit, and it has fairly large tires. It looks smooth, but isn't. I can't imagine going 60 over it with smaller tires. Maybe the airplane has more spring action. I would hope turf runways were made smoother than my yard.
 
skidoo said:
I have turf in my front yard. If I go more than 10 MPH on my JD top of the line mower, I get shaken quite a bit, and it has fairly large tires. It looks smooth, but isn't. I can't imagine going 60 over it with smaller tires. Maybe the airplane has more spring action. I would hope turf runways were made smoother than my yard.
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Most are - Some aren't. But those that are REALLY rough are truly rare - I can only think of two - 84C and 4N4.

CAUTION: RWY EXTRMLY ROUGH & ELEV VARIES 30'; ACFT WITH NOSE WHEELS AVOID EAST 1100' OF RWY.
 
skidoo said:
I have turf in my front yard. If I go more than 10 MPH on my JD top of the line mower, I get shaken quite a bit, and it has fairly large tires. It looks smooth, but isn't. I can't imagine going 60 over it with smaller tires. Maybe the airplane has more spring action. I would hope turf runways were made smoother than my yard.
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A few differences between your lawn mower and an airplane....

The airplane is touching down at 60 (let's say -- mine I touch down about 35 MPH), but much of the weight is still borne by the wings.

As the airplane slows, more weight is transferred to the wheels, so the rollout speed is far less than the touchdown speed, and the airplane decelerates more quickly on turf, reducing the time the airplane is rolling (and perhaps bouncing).

Look at the lawnmower wheel base and tire size and compare to even a small airplane. My 1150 Max gross weight Chief runs on two 6x6 tires, inflated to 17 PSI. Lots of rubber and lots of flexion. Add in the strut travel of 8" or so. Now couple that with the airframe that was built to easily stand up to 4 gs.

I don't think your lawnmower had to pass a G load test.

I've landed on rough dirt (dry summer, lots of other airplanes there before me) and it's no rougher than a pavement landing.
 
dmccormack said:
A few differences between your lawn mower and an airplane....

The airplane is touching down at 60 (let's say -- mine I touch down about 35 MPH), but much of the weight is still borne by the wings.

As the airplane slows, more weight is transferred to the wheels, so the rollout speed is far less than the touchdown speed, and the airplane decelerates more quickly on turf, reducing the time the airplane is rolling (and perhaps bouncing).

Look at the lawnmower wheel base and tire size and compare to even a small airplane. My 1150 Max gross weight Chief runs on two 6x6 tires, inflated to 17 PSI. Lots of rubber and lots of flexion. Add in the strut travel of 8" or so. Now couple that with the airframe that was built to easily stand up to 4 gs.

I don't think your lawnmower had to pass a G load test.

I've landed on rough dirt (dry summer, lots of other airplanes there before me) and it's no rougher than a pavement landing.
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Excellent points. I feel better about it and I am looking forward to trying one or more turf fields this year. I did a turf field in 1975 without a second thought in a rental C150 and no wheel pants. No problems... But, I have ownership in a 182, and it is heavier with pants.
 
skidoo said:
Excellent points. I feel better about it and I am looking forward to trying one or more turf fields this year. I did a turf field in 1975 without a second thought in a rental C150 and no wheel pants. No problems... But, I have ownership in a 182, and it is heavier with pants.
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The 182 does great on unpaved fields - And you're out in the land of wonderful unpaved field experiences! If I lived out there I'd probably hardly ever land on pavement in the summer. :yes:

It's not hard at all to get the main wheel pants off the 182, should you have a mission to a field where you're worried about them. The nose one is a bit harder, 'cuz you have to take the nosewheel off which requires you to have a couple of friends to hold the tail down, or tie something heavy to the tail tiedown to hold the nose off the ground. If you have that, a half hour or less and simple tools will do the trick. :thumbsup:
 
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