using available weather data to determine "VFR on top" possibilities

Mxfarm said:
if your VFR on top, can you use VFR only, such as GPS for navigation?
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No. You are operating under "instrument flight rules." "VFR on Top" is about altitude, not route of flight. As the first sentence AIM 4-4-8, "IFR Clearance VFR-on-top" puts it,
A pilot on an IFR flight plan operating in VFR weather conditions, may request VFR-on-top in lieu of an assigned altitude. This permits a pilot to select an altitude or flight level of their choice (subject to any ATC restrictions.)​

And, as the AIM continues further down,
When operating in VFR conditions with an ATC authorization to "maintain VFR-on-top/maintain VFR conditions" pilots on IFR flight plans must:​
1. Fly at the appropriate VFR altitude as prescribed in 14 CFR Section 91.159.​
2. Comply with the VFR visibility and distance from cloud criteria in 14 CFR Section 91.155 (Basic VFR Weather Minimums).​
3. Comply with instrument flight rules that are applicable to this flight; i.e., minimum IFR altitudes, position reporting, radio communications, course to be flown, adherence to ATC clearance, etc. (emphasis added)​
 
Mxfarm said:
if your VFR on top, can you use VFR only, such as GPS for navigation?
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Yes. In fact, you can use that equipment on an IFR clearance, the thing is you can't accept the IFR clearance unless you also have appropriate navigation equipment for IFR flight and use that equipment as your primary navigation source.
 
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Half Fast said:
Careful - VFR on top is an IFR clearance.
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I'm aware. My point is that you can still use VFR navigation equipment as long as you also use the required IFR navigation equipment. I see how my wording was confusing. Fixed.
 
midlifeflyer said:
More confusing than VFR on top vs VFR over the top? :D
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I guess not, because my response was confusing due to my temporary confusion of VFR on top vs VFR over the top, even though I know the difference.
 
I propose the phrase "VFR while on top" to replace "VFR on top". Not that anyone will take me up on it, or that it will remove all confusion.
 
Salty said:
I propose the phrase "VFR while on top" to replace "VFR on top". Not that anyone will take me up on it, or that it will remove all confusion.
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I wish they’d take “VFR” out of the name altogether. “Restricted block altitude” might be better.
 
Half Fast said:
The FAA is too busy with more pressing issues, like changing “student” to “learner” and defining NOTAM to be “notice to air missions.”
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Eventually, the poorly-programmed AI that’s in the flight deck making those changes will accidentally change “VFR-on-top” to a better term. I’m just trying to offer it some training data to help.
 
Do people use VFR-on-top[-the-IFR-clearance] while enroute? I've only ever used it to get on top and I'm always pressed for an "advise cancellation [of IFR, while flying the VFR-on-top-while-IFR clearance instructions using my VFR navigational equipment] when on top"
 
Seems like the only time it would be used (VFR on top w/IFR clearance) would be if your destination was IMC and you'd need to shoot an approach.
 
Mxfarm said:
Seems like the only time it would be used (VFR on top w/IFR clearance) would be if your destination was IMC and you'd need to shoot an approach.
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I can see it being used if you wanted higher but ATC was unable to give you an altitude above clouds or turbulence.
 
yep...VFR OVER the top is what I meant. I was too rusty and out of touch to remember the correct words. Thanks for the assist!

I was trying to figure out how a pilot could tell if such a flight was going to be likely possible short of climbing through a hole for a peek...and then hoping he can find another hole to get back down....
Looks like learning this Skew-T diagram is the only solution.
I certainly don't recall anything about the Skew T from back when I did my instrument rating and used to be quite a student of weather... I'd venture a guess taht it wasn't even a thing back in those days, accessible to the average joe pilot. Maybe something only the meteorologists looked at.
 
Salty said:
Yes. In fact, you can use that equipment on an IFR clearance, the thing is you can't accept the IFR clearance unless you also have appropriate navigation equipment for IFR flight and use that equipment as your primary navigation source.
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For many years I owned a Bonanza with a KNS-80. My GPS was not instrument-certified but was far more accurate than the KNS-80. I depended more on the GPS (actually had two, one in the panel, one on a yoke mount).

I filed direct from Duluth to Rockford as a BE-35/I. Departure said, "Minneapolis Center wants to know how you are navigating direct to Rockford."

"Tell them I am using a Rho/Theta area navigation system."

Didn't hear another word about it.
 
midlifeflyer said:
You must have a lot of difficulty with aviation terms if you find this one is confusing. Thats too bad. There’s a lot of jargon in this world. What stage are you in with your training?
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3800 hours, 32 years flying
 
I just asked a simple question, whats the difference. Sounds very similiar. I got a bunch of hate and negative aspersions about my experience. Bowing out here.
 
Iflydogs said:
I just asked a simple question, whats the difference. Sounds very similiar. I got a bunch of hate and negative aspersions about my experience. Bowing out here.
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Oh, c’mon - you also got some informative answers, too, didn’t you? This is the Internet, after all, with a little something for everyone. A little love, a little hate, a little good advice, a little deadly advice,....
 
Ha ha yeah! Vfr over the top is vfr, find a hole, pretty much what i have been using common sense to do to stay alive. Vfr on the top is weirdly named IFR. Got and thanks for the gut check, appreciated.
 
And a Non-movement area is where you can move without permission and a movement area requires permission. The wording seems exactly backwards to me. thats how I remember it. The opposite of what makes sense
 
Make sure you feel comfortable flying IMC in case you need to descend. Don’t be afraid to call up ATC and declare an emergency. Hey I’m VFR over the clouds and I need to get down now, help.
 
mandm said:
Make sure you feel comfortable flying IMC in case you need to descend. Don’t be afraid to call up ATC and declare an emergency. Hey I’m VFR over the clouds and I need to get down now, help.
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When flying VFR Over The Top, you really need to know your "outs" in case they're needed. Know where there is no layer below, know how thick the layer is, know what's below the layer and how much clearance below it and absolutely know it's going to be clear at the destination. I won't do VFR Over The Top unless my destination is forecast to be clear or few. If the forecast calls for scattered clouds at the destination, while still legal to go over the top, I wouldn't do it. A scattered layer has too many clouds I could accidentally enter and a scattered layer could easily turn out to be a broken layer and then you're stuck. Last time I went VFR OTT was from KIAG to KBDR. It was overcast at 2,500 ft. but there was a HUGE hole just off the lake Erie coast, climbed above it and watched the clouds below turn from overcast to broken to scattered to few and by the time we reached Connecticut there were no clouds at all.
 
Chrisgoesflying said:
When flying VFR Over The Top, you really need to know your "outs" in case they're needed. Know where there is no layer below, know how thick the layer is, know what's below the layer and how much clearance below it and absolutely know it's going to be clear at the destination. I won't do VFR Over The Top unless my destination is forecast to be clear or few. If the forecast calls for scattered clouds at the destination, while still legal to go over the top, I wouldn't do it. A scattered layer has too many clouds I could accidentally enter and a scattered layer could easily turn out to be a broken layer and then you're stuck. Last time I went VFR OTT was from KIAG to KBDR. It was overcast at 2,500 ft. but there was a HUGE hole just off the lake Erie coast, climbed above it and watched the clouds below turn from overcast to broken to scattered to few and by the time we reached Connecticut there were no clouds at all.
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All good points. In addition, I want to be on flight following. Something can come up through that deck quicker than I can see and avoid, and could easily be in a blind spot for my low wing. Plus, if I need an out, it’s good to be in contact with ATC already.

OTT can be useful but I want every bit of help I can get.
 
I’ve never asked for VFR-on-top while flying on an IFR flight plan. Never saw a benefit.

I could have done it Wednesday, on my trip to Wisconsin, when there was a stratus layer from 1000’ to 2000’ AGL covering many states, with clear skies above, but I was happy with my IFR altitudes of 4000 and 5000’ MSL.

Nothing would have been improved by flying 500’ higher using VFR-on-top. I still would have been in the same beautiful clear sky above the stratus layer. I still would have had to do the same instrument approach through the layer to land.
 
NoHeat said:
I’ve never asked for VFR-on-top while flying on an IFR flight plan. Never saw a benefit.
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One time I was picking up ice going in and out of the tops, and another 500 feet would have kept me out of it. Instead of asking for VFR On Top, I requested and was approved for a block altitude.
 
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