Using AirNav to bash an FBO?

[Jay Honeck]

Really? I thought the "walking" rules were there only in case the hotel had unexpectedly run out of rooms, such as a tree falling on the roof, or a plumbing problem, or the previous night's guest trashed the room. I guess I was too naïve.

The only reason hotels overbook is because they expect a certain percentage of guests to no-show. Many hoteliers are positively hostile to guests (behind closed doors, of course -- you should hear what they say at the ill-named "hospitality meetings") and simply don't care if they have to "walk" guests, just so long as they are full of paying guests. Thus, the 20% overbooking rule was born.

This is partially the public's fault -- people are less reliable every day, and hoteliers feel stuck by them when they don't show up despite having a "guaranteed" reservation -- but mostly it's the hotel industry's fault for creating a business model that lets guests off the hook when they don't show up. If hoteliers expected their guests to show up, and held them to it (the way we do), there would be no reason to overbook -- and there would be no guests left out in the cold on a sell-out weekend despite having a "guaranteed reservation".

It's a strange business, no doubt.

 

[ScottM]

Duh, that is what I did, by posting publicly instead of through PM.

Actually you quoted me and used the pronoun 'you'. By doing that, the question you postulated was directed towards me.

Hence my challenge back to you about misquoting me.

If you meant to direct the question with your added modifier to the board it was not clear from your writing that you had meant it to be so.

 

[ScottM]

The only reason hotels overbook is because they expect a certain percentage of guests to no-show. Many hoteliers are positively hostile to guests (behind closed doors, of course -- you should hear what they say at the ill-named "hospitality meetings") and simply don't care if they have to "walk" guests, just so long as they are full of paying guests. Thus, the 20% overbooking rule was born.

This is partially the public's fault -- people are less reliable every day, and hoteliers feel stuck by them when they don't show up despite having a "guaranteed" reservation -- but mostly it's the hotel industry's fault for creating a business model that lets guests off the hook when they don't show up. If hoteliers expected their guests to show up, and held them to it (the way we do), there would be no reason to overbook -- and there would be no guests left out in the cold on a sell-out weekend despite having a "guaranteed reservation".

It's a strange business, no doubt.

Jay when I guarantee a reservation I have to give a cc number and if I do not cancel I get charged at least one day. I know of no hotel to have a different policy.

So how are guests let off the hook if they do not show on a guaranteed reservation?

Why are hoteliers overbooking when they have a guarantee and are getting paid regardless if the person shows up? That sounds a little like fraud to me.

 

[Henning]

Jay when I guarantee a reservation I have to give a cc number and if I do not cancel I get charged at least one day. I know of no hotel to have a different policy.

So how are guests let off the hook if they do not show on a guaranteed reservation?

Why are hoteliers overbooking when they have a guarantee and are getting paid regardless if the person shows up? That sounds a little like fraud to me.

They get to bill the same room twice, if they can get a second booking.

 

[Everskyward]

I stay in a lot of hotels too, sometimes arriving late, and I have never been "walked". If there has ever been a problem it's been something like booking us at the wrong location or on the wrong date. We also voluntarily walked once because when we arrived the only rooms left were smoking rooms.

 

[Cap'n Jack]

I've only been "walked" once- when the hotel I booked through Expedia was under renovation. After I paid the cab and went inside, it looked like a war zone. As this was in Portugal, I wasn't keen on finding another hotel or arranging other transportation.

The manager met me just inside the door, took my luggage, and walked me to another hotel two blocks away where he had made a reservation for me. No charge since I already paid for the room under Expedia. I thought that to be classy

 

[Jay Honeck]

Jay when I guarantee a reservation I have to give a cc number and if I do not cancel I get charged at least one day. I know of no hotel to have a different policy.

So how are guests let off the hook if they do not show on a guaranteed reservation?

Why are hoteliers overbooking when they have a guarantee and are getting paid regardless if the person shows up? That sounds a little like fraud to me.

(Great - I had an enormously long and complex answer to your questions composed. Then I made the mistake of using this site's "spell check". It said it had to download an "add-on" to make it work, and -- poof -- my response was deleted. GOD, I hate crappy software!)

Most hotels charge for no-shows; many even encourage them. These hotels bolster their bottom line in this way. By over-booking by 20% (or more), and counting on the unreliability of the general public, they can make a pretty penny. And yes, they are entitled to this money, even if the rooms are eventually re-rented to someone else.

I have no trouble with charging for no-shows -- a guaranteed reservation works both ways -- but actually hoping for, even encouraging no-shows by over-booking and allowing cancellations as late as 6 PM (fully 3 hours AFTER check-in time!) is unconscionable, in my opinion.

Back to your question. In an increasingly competitive (in some areas, desperate) market, some hotels do NOT charge for no-shows, if pressed. This practice, done through the fear of losing future sales, simply encourages future no-shows throughout the industry by rewarding bad behavior, renders the concept of a "guaranteed" reservation meaningless, and makes it difficult for those of us who believe that a guaranteed reservation is a contract to NOT overbook, in self-defense. In short, if hotels are unable to charge for no-shows, the only alternative is over-booking.

The bottom line question is this: Would you rather see no-shows charged, or would your rather be the poor guy who -- after being unexpectedly stuck in traffic for five hours -- shows up late and gets "walked"? As a guest AND as a hotelier, I'd rather see the ne'er-do-well no-shows get stuck, wouldn't you?

This is a mess in the making that could be easily fixed by the hotels making -- and honoring -- guaranteed reservations, and not over-booking. We follow this simple procedure, everyone understands it, and we don't deviate. It's a simple process that some parts of the lodging industry have botched, at least partially in response to the fear of bogus on-line faux "reviews" from angry no-shows...

 

[gismo]

Most hotels charge for no-shows; many even encourage them. These hotels bolster their bottom line in this way. By over-booking by 20% (or more), and counting on the unreliability of the general public, they can make a pretty penny. And yes, they are entitled to this money, even if the rooms are eventually re-rented to someone else.

"Entitled"??? By law or by ethics? I'm absolutely fine with the notion that if I book a room with a guaranteed late arrival and I don't show, I should expect to pay for one night's stay in the room. But it seems to me that if the hotel decides to rent the room I paid for to someone else before I do eventually arrive they owe me a suitable replacement and some sort of compensation for the inconvenience. Arguably there is a quid pro quo here in that if a hotel allows me to cancel at 5:55 pm on the evening of the reservation and they've turned away other business to accommodate me I've cost them some profit that they should have had even though I played by their rules.

This is similar but not identical to the airline's policy of overbooking the difference being they typically don't offer any refund if you cancel with advance notice. It always seemed to me that the law should only allow them to choose between overbooking and offering refunds when reservations are canceled ahead of time.

This is a mess in the making that could be easily fixed by the hotels making -- and honoring -- guaranteed reservations, and not over-booking. We follow this simple procedure, everyone understands it, and we don't deviate. It's a simple process that some parts of the lodging industry have botched, at least partially in response to the fear of bogus on-line faux "reviews" from angry no-shows...

That's the way I think it should be done. It also seems reasonable to me for a hotel to charge a "late cancellation fee" that's a small portion of the room charge and equivalent to what it cost them to set up the room for the guest who cancels after 3PM as long as this policy is made known to the client.

 

[N801BH]

"Entitled"??? By law or by ethics? I'm absolutely fine with the notion that if I book a room with a guaranteed late arrival and I don't show, I should expect to pay for one night's stay in the room. But it seems to me that if the hotel decides to rent the room I paid for to someone else before I do eventually arrive they owe me a suitable replacement and some sort of compensation for the inconvenience. Arguably there is a quid pro quo here in that if a hotel allows me to cancel at 5:55 pm on the evening of the reservation and they've turned away other business to accommodate me I've cost them some profit that they should have had even though I played by their rules.

I agree 100 %. If I make a reservation and they take my CC# and bill it to hold the room and for some reason I can't get there till late at night, when I do arrive and the room is full of someone else they better be calling the cops... For their own protection,,,,, because I am sleeping in one of their rooms come hell or high water...

 

[Kelvin]

Many times a simple phone call will head off all of the grief...

"Entitled"??? By law or by ethics? I'm absolutely fine with the notion that if I book a room with a guaranteed late arrival and I don't show, I should expect to pay for one night's stay in the room. But it seems to me that if the hotel decides to rent the room I paid for to someone else before I do eventually arrive they owe me a suitable replacement and some sort of compensation for the inconvenience. Arguably there is a quid pro quo here in that if a hotel allows me to cancel at 5:55 pm on the evening of the reservation and they've turned away other business to accommodate me I've cost them some profit that they should have had even though I played by their rules.

This is similar but not identical to the airline's policy of overbooking the difference being they typically don't offer any refund if you cancel with advance notice. It always seemed to me that the law should only allow them to choose between overbooking and offering refunds when reservations are canceled ahead of time.

That's the way I think it should be done. It also seems reasonable to me for a hotel to charge a "late cancellation fee" that's a small portion of the room charge and equivalent to what it cost them to set up the room for the guest who cancels after 3PM as long as this policy is made known to the client.

"Entitled"??? By law or by ethics? I'm absolutely fine with the notion that if I book a room with a guaranteed late arrival and I don't show, I should expect to pay for one night's stay in the room. But it seems to me that if the hotel decides to rent the room I paid for to someone else before I do eventually arrive they owe me a suitable replacement and some sort of compensation for the inconvenience. Arguably there is a quid pro quo here in that if a hotel allows me to cancel at 5:55 pm on the evening of the reservation and they've turned away other business to accommodate me I've cost them some profit that they should have had even though I played by their rules.

I agree 100 %. If I make a reservation and they take my CC# and bill it to hold the room and for some reason I can't get there till late at night, when I do arrive and the room is full of someone else they better be calling the cops... For their own protection,,,,, because I am sleeping in one of their rooms come hell or high water...

 

[Ghery]

I've had a room denied me with a late arrival guaranteed reservation exactly once. The manager came out when my taxi arrived and said they had no rooms due to a computer failure. He paid for the taxi to take me to another hotel and paid for that room. This was 10 years ago. I wasn't happy (the whole trip was FUBARed, but that's another story) but he made it right.

 

[ScottM]

I've had a room denied me with a late arrival guaranteed reservation exactly once. The manager came out when my taxi arrived and said they had no rooms due to a computer failure. He paid for the taxi to take me to another hotel and paid for that room. This was 10 years ago. I wasn't happy (the whole trip was FUBARed, but that's another story) but he made it right.

As I said with only one exception that has been the case for me too.

But something I am noticing happening a lot, it happened again this morning, is that hotels try to post bill you extra.

Last Thursday I checked out of my hotel and got the final bill. Today I noticed that there was another charge for $16.61 on my credit card statement as I was doing my expense report. I called the hotel to see what this was and they said for a stuffed dolphin toy. WTF?? I had no idea what they were talking about so they removed the charge.

A couple of months ago I got back from a trip to SF and the next day there was a few more dollars charged to my bill. I called up the hotel and they claimed mini-bar. Again, sorry, I had not used the mini-bar so I made them reverse the charges.

These were not the first two times that has happened in the past couple of years. I cannot help but wonder if hotels do that in the hopes that people will not catch the extra charges and just pay them off.

 

[gismo]

As I said with only one exception that has been the case for me too.

But something I am noticing happening a lot, it happened again this morning, is that hotels try to post bill you extra.

Last Thursday I checked out of my hotel and got the final bill. Today I noticed that there was another charge for $16.61 on my credit card statement as I was doing my expense report. I called the hotel to see what this was and they said for a stuffed dolphin toy. WTF?? I had no idea what they were talking about so they removed the charge.

A couple of months ago I got back from a trip to SF and the next day there was a few more dollars charged to my bill. I called up the hotel and they claimed mini-bar. Again, sorry, I had not used the mini-bar so I made them reverse the charges.

These were not the first two times that has happened in the past couple of years. I cannot help but wonder if hotels do that in the hopes that people will not catch the extra charges and just pay them off.

Seems plausible but I'd think that if someone was able to prove that they were doing this deliberately they could be convicted of fraud.

 

[N801BH]

It is alot easier to steal a dollar from a million people then stealing a million from one person,,,, and they know it.

 

[Ghery]

As I said with only one exception that has been the case for me too.

But something I am noticing happening a lot, it happened again this morning, is that hotels try to post bill you extra.

Last Thursday I checked out of my hotel and got the final bill. Today I noticed that there was another charge for $16.61 on my credit card statement as I was doing my expense report. I called the hotel to see what this was and they said for a stuffed dolphin toy. WTF?? I had no idea what they were talking about so they removed the charge.

A couple of months ago I got back from a trip to SF and the next day there was a few more dollars charged to my bill. I called up the hotel and they claimed mini-bar. Again, sorry, I had not used the mini-bar so I made them reverse the charges.

These were not the first two times that has happened in the past couple of years. I cannot help but wonder if hotels do that in the hopes that people will not catch the extra charges and just pay them off.

I track every penny I spend on a business trip, and reconcile it with my on-line expense reporting tool as quickly as stuff shows up on the Amex on-line tool we use. Something like that would stick out like a sore thumb and my call wouldn't be nice.

 

[el con]

It is truly unfortunate that honest business owners have to spend valuable time defending themselves against competitors false claims or severely demanding customers. It has become way to easy for someone to do damage to someones livelyhood with a few keystrokes.
People should still be innocent until PROVEN guilty, maybe publish only good things, if a business has nothing in print they would then be deemed average or poor.
I am amazed at how many times the reports can be so conflicting ,one person has a great experience,another at the same place a terrible one. There could be a hundred happy customers that never say a thing ,then one who has a bug up there hiney or an atitude that reams that business a new one. The expectations of some are more demanding than others.
It may not make sense to others, but many times I've been grateful for less than stellar service,price,etc.,and was just happy someone was open or there when I needed something. But maybe that's just me.
My Grama told me "Don't believe all you read" and "If you don't have something good to say,don't say it". Maybe holds true today also.
That being said ,maybe in other posts I should'nt have been so tough on Ted Kennedy. Sorry Grama,it was a weak moment

 

[gprellwitz]

People should still be innocent until PROVEN guilty, maybe publish only good things, if a business has nothing in print they would then be deemed average or poor.

or new!

 

[astanley]

You want to see bad comments you should see what they write about me on ratemyprofessor.com.

Either people love you or hate you, it seems. Is this pretty typical for a "intro" class intended for like-minded majors? I didn't hate my Physics 101 professor, which was for Engineering/Science majors, but it was a soul crusher of a course.

Cheers,

-Andrew

 

[JOhnH]

Either people love you or hate you, it seems. Is this pretty typical for a "intro" class intended for like-minded majors? I didn't hate my Physics 101 professor, which was for Engineering/Science majors, but it was a soul crusher of a course.

Cheers,

-Andrew

Did you per chance attend Georgia Tech? All my classes there were soul crushers. But the only instructors I hated were the English/History types that gave 1 A & 2 Bs. Amost everyone else got a C. If you failed to attend class at least half the time, you failed. No one learned anything in those classes. These were auditorium classes with over 300 people.

 

[kyleb]

Did you per chance attend Georgia Tech? All my classes there were soul crushers. But the only instructors I hated were the English/History types that gave 1 A & 2 Bs. Amost everyone else got a C. If you failed to attend class at least half the time, you failed. No one learned anything in those classes. These were auditorium classes with over 300 people.

When I was at Tech, very few classes had mandatory attendance. But whether you attended or not, you got the shaft. Hell, I had a calculus class one time where the prof didn't like the grade distribution at the end of the quarter and gave D's to a bunch of folks with averages in the 70's.

I had a different calculus class a year or two later where the prof actually laughed at me as he returned my graded test...

 

[fastair5]

it's just the reality of direct social marketing...it absolutley sucks that some people will gravitate to any means possible to lift their heads or depress others. We have the same issues with the Beer review / restaurant review sites...you have many consistent reviews with one or two standouts that are eventually indentified as fraudulent authors in order to benefit themselves through defimantion of their perceived competition. The reality is that they only seem to hurt the the industry as a whole. Damn, I wonder why I drink so much...because if I didn't, there may be less of a population.

 

[mikea]

The internet is rife with fraud like this, so this comes as no surprise.

Example: We own an aviation themed hotel -- in a college town. (The University of Iowa.) The college kids are computer savvy from birth, and what do you think they do to us when our night manager breaks up a party and sends them packing? Yep, the next day we'll have an on-line review that complains about "bugs in the rooms and blood on the sheets".
visor, and have never been disappointed.
...
I imagine it works the same way with FBOs. What a shame, but the world is chock-full of dishonorable characters.

The professional aholes don't need a computer....

I got Pancho as a rescue from Sandy, a breeder who shows dogs from MO. She tells me she can't have that many dogs any more. She was coincidentally, also the first stop for Bubba.

What happened?

She had an adult rescue that had health problems. The dog was listed 100% accurately. She gets a call from a lady in St. Louis and screens her and carefully explains the dog's health problems. The lady is coming to get it.

Day arrives and the lady's husband is livid for having to drive all the way out to the other side of the state. She shows them the dog and they are shocked that it isn't perfectly healthy. The guy rants that she misrepresented the dog's condition and Sandy says one thing for sure: they're not leaving with a dog.

Mr. Ahole calls the MO Dept of Agriculture and says she's running a cruel puppy mill and the dogs are in horrible shape.

The DoA inspects her and says she's fine, of course, but she can only have as many dogs as the house has bedrooms. So now she can't board any rescues.

We need laws to make it legal to auto-Taze some people that have it coming.

 

[steingar]

When I was at Tech, very few classes had mandatory attendance. But whether you attended or not, you got the shaft. Hell, I had a calculus class one time where the prof didn't like the grade distribution at the end of the quarter and gave D's to a bunch of folks with averages in the 70's.

I had a different calculus class a year or two later where the prof actually laughed at me as he returned my graded test...

Bad apples. Problem is, like pilots, a lot of faculty have huge egos. I actively think about things like this, because my students foot the bill for a lot that goes on around here.

The only comment I have ever given with a poor exam was an offer of assistance. I have NEVER curved down, I'll give out an all A's before I'll ever give someone a worse grade than they deserve on the scores.