Use of A/P as a Precaution

Re: Use of A/P as a Precuation

HDG mode doesn't help with vertigo.

This is the real insidious problem with VFR-into-IMC. It is not that the VFR pilot can't fly on instrument (or punch the AP on), it's that they do not realize it is time to stop staring out into the murk / darkness.
 
Re: Use of A/P as a Precuation

In the OP's situation I would say yes, turn on the AP.

But I'd also point out the AP should not be a crutch that allows a pilot to believe he or she should take off into conditions that will invite need of it.

IOW, use it if you want or need, but be able to fly without it as your preflight planning.
 
Re: Use of A/P as a Precuation

What great lessons of the universe does a pilot gain by hand-flying in level cruise?

One lesson may be that you don't need an autopilot to fly straight and level VFR.
 
To the original question, YES I would engage it if I found myself in that situation. AP-HDG-ALT & heading bug:).

Just wanted to add, I think it's a good idea to test the autopilot before you actually need to use it. I had an autopilot that wouldn't hold heading once. I was day VFR and after two attempts, I just disengaged it and hand flew.
 
Just wanted to add, I think it's a good idea to test the autopilot before you actually need to use it.
I've yet to see an autopilot whose flight manual doesn't have a pretakeoff system check. I have, however, seen a lot of pilots who don't do it unless prompted by their instructor, and redtail's example is a good one on why those folks are being shortsighted. Choose wisely.
 
Re: Use of A/P as a Precuation

In the OP's situation I would say yes, turn on the AP.

But I'd also point out the AP should not be a crutch that allows a pilot to believe he or she should take off into conditions that will invite need of it.

IOW, use it if you want or need, but be able to fly without it as your preflight planning.


:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:
 
Re: Use of A/P as a Precuation

Sorry I was thinking Cirrus with the Kennedy reference.
Why? Kennedy wasn't flying a Cirrus. It was a Piper, a Saratoga I think.

It's not really relevant but a couple of people have mentioned JFK Jr. and Cirrus in the same sentence in this thread and I'm just curious what the connection was.
 
I've yet to see an autopilot whose flight manual doesn't have a pretakeoff system check. I have, however, seen a lot of pilots who don't do it unless prompted by their instructor, and redtail's example is a good one on why those folks are being shortsighted. Choose wisely.

Prior to that flight, I was one of them. That's why at night (I don't fly much at night), I'd check it in flight also!
 
By the way, I was taking a flight lesson the same day JFK jr. died. My CFI and I departed TEB and flew to MMU for T&G's.
JFK jr. took off from CDW that evening. TEB, MMU & CDW are all within a few miles of each other.

Hazy VFR summer day.
As a student pilot, that day was forever etched in my mind and has greatly influenced my ADM.
 
Last edited:
Perhaps I am making this question more complicated than it really is, however....

You are VFR pilot - flying VFR at night, CAVU conditions and everyone onboard is fat, dumb and happy. As the flight continues, you realize that you just penetrated a thick cloud, 5 seconds goes by and you're still in it. Although you're not an IFR rated pilot you're able to maintain level flight but at this point you realize you don't know how big is this cloud and its time for a nice and level 180 to get out.

Question: would anyone recommend to a VFR only pilot, as a simple precaution option and given that aircraft is equipped, to hit Heading and Alt hold and use a heading bug to make a nice and level 180.

Although the pilot is well capable of making the 180 by hand, do you think using A/P will provide an additional layer of safety?

You fall out of a boat. You know how to dog paddle, but not how to swim. Someone throws you a life preserver. Do you grab it immediately, or do you wait until you start to drown?

IMHO, the high cost of installing certified a/p's cost lives.
 
Putting the plane on AP allows the pilot to divide his attention, expand his scan, consult his checklist, take some deep breaths and so forth. Much the prefered option, most especially for a pilot who is inexperienced, new to the plane (so long as he undersstands the AP) or is otherwise closer to being task saturated.
 
throughout my training I was not allowed to use autopilot, hence I never built it into my every day flying, especially for accidental IMC conditions (just to help me get out of it). Last few flight of my training, my instructor did explain and show me how to use it and most importantly how this thing can kill you without proper attention ...

But based on what I am hearing on this tread - sounds like a good tool to use on every flight day or night.

Thank you everybody!
 
throughout my training I was not allowed to use autopilot, hence I never built it into my every day flying, especially for accidental IMC conditions (just to help me get out of it). Last few flight of my training, my instructor did explain and show me how to use it and most importantly how this thing can kill you without proper attention ...

But based on what I am hearing on this tread - sounds like a good tool to use on every flight day or night.

Thank you everybody!

Most of the Skyhawks I trained in, had no AP. A few did but my CFIs never showed/allowed me to use it. I didn't use an autopilot or GPS until after I got my ticket:yikes:.

Edit: I need to re-word that. Sounds like I trained in a fleet of planes:lol:.

Out of the three Skyhawks I took lessons in, I think one had an AP.
 
Last edited:
Re: Use of A/P as a Precuation

And that lesson might produce the opposite result as well, as evidenced by the references to the famous guy who either couldn't or didn't.

One lesson may be that you don't need an autopilot to fly straight and level VFR.
 
Re: Use of A/P as a Precuation

To address the OP: if you are VFR only, flying at night, not paying attention, lousy weather brief, "fat-dumb-happy" - well that's 3 items in the 5P decision model already.

No machine can save one from idiocy.
 
Since we're speaking of the JFK Jr. accident. If I recall, the radar track seemed to indicate that he was in fact using the AP while in cruise until he got close to his destination. Do anyone know if that's correct:dunno:
 
Last edited:
Re: Use of A/P as a Precuation

To address the OP: if you are VFR only, flying at night, not paying attention, lousy weather brief, "fat-dumb-happy" - well that's 3 items in the 5P decision model already.

No machine can save one from idiocy.

OTOH, sometimes clouds don't do what we expect them to do. Forecasts change, sometimes very quickly. People make mistakes.

If there's a lifeline, take it.

My instructor wouldn't "let" me use the moving map on the 430 when Iwas training for the IFR ticket. But you can be sure I knew it was there,knew how to use it and would have if I had gotten caught situationally unaware.

If the plane you fly has an a/p, insist that you be shown how to use it.
 
Re: Use of A/P as a Precuation

OTOH, sometimes clouds don't do what we expect them to do. Forecasts change, sometimes very quickly. People make mistakes.

If there's a lifeline, take it.

My instructor wouldn't "let" me use the moving map on the 430 when Iwas training for the IFR ticket. But you can be sure I knew it was there,knew how to use it and would have if I had gotten caught situationally unaware.

If the plane you fly has an a/p, insist that you be shown how to use it.

:yes:
 
If so, it's obvious that he didn't know quite enough.

These discussions offer an opportunity to contrast the training philosophies of sim providers and progressive CFI's vs that of some of the "old school" CFI's. Back in the day, autopilots were known to be unreliable and instructors were prone to emphasize hand flying because the pilots couldn't depend on the automation to do what they were supposed to do.

As the equipment became more dependable the schools (and the FAA) have required the pilots to demonstrate APFD use in all flight regimes including coupled approaches. As an instructor/check airman, it's pretty easy to determine which students have been adequately trained.

Since we're speaking of the JFK Jr. accident. If I recall, the radar track seemed to indicate that he was in fact using the AP while in cruise until he got close to his destination. Do anyone know if that's correct:dunno:
 
Re: Use of A/P as a Precuation

Why? Kennedy wasn't flying a Cirrus. It was a Piper, a Saratoga I think.

It's not really relevant but a couple of people have mentioned JFK Jr. and Cirrus in the same sentence in this thread and I'm just curious what the connection was.
It was and I am not sure the connection either. As for the JFK Jr flight baring the conspiracy theories(which I did not realize existed til I went to confirm it was not a Cirrus) there was an article in AOPA Pilot I believe on the ten year anniversity of the flight that described the chain of events that led to the unfortunate outcome. They identified 10 huge issues if I remember correctly, and it was certainly interesting to read.

As for the OP question, I would use everything I could to get out of the position. Inadvertant IMC does not only kill non IR pilots, it has been the cause of many fatal accidents involving IR pilots as well. Know your plane, and know how to use it. I believe the FAA covers this in one of their videos
http://www.aopa.org/asf/psa/178seconds.html
 
The autopilot is a tool to be used. Nothing more. If you have it, make sure you know how to use it properly. Then USE it as you see fit.

You have no idea how much brain power it takes to maintain straight and level flight, even in VFR conditions. If you can unload the mundane stuff onto the autopilot, then you have that much more brain power to use to manage the flight.

If you are one of those that do not want to use the autopilot, then REMOVE the thing and sell it to someone who knows how to use it properly.

That is not to say to rely on it to the detriment of your skills, but there is a reason that the 121 world has higher minimums when the AP is inop.
 
The autopilot is a tool to be used. Nothing more. If you have it, make sure you know how to use it properly. Then USE it as you see fit.

You have no idea how much brain power it takes to maintain straight and level flight, even in VFR conditions. If you can unload the mundane stuff onto the autopilot, then you have that much more brain power to use to manage the flight.

If you are one of those that do not want to use the autopilot, then REMOVE the thing and sell it to someone who knows how to use it properly.

That is not to say to rely on it to the detriment of your skills, but there is a reason that the 121 world has higher minimums when the AP is inop.

Note that this all depends on the aircraft. A nice slow stable airplane like a cherokee is pretty easy to fly straight-and-level when VFR. Heck, it's pretty easy to fly straight-and-level when IMC (once proficient).
 
Perhaps I am making this question more complicated than it really is, however....

You are VFR pilot - flying VFR at night, CAVU conditions and everyone onboard is fat, dumb and happy. As the flight continues, you realize that you just penetrated a thick cloud, 5 seconds goes by and you're still in it. Although you're not an IFR rated pilot you're able to maintain level flight but at this point you realize you don't know how big is this cloud and its time for a nice and level 180 to get out.

Question: would anyone recommend to a VFR only pilot, as a simple precaution option and given that aircraft is equipped, to hit Heading and Alt hold and use a heading bug to make a nice and level 180.

Although the pilot is well capable of making the 180 by hand, do you think using A/P will provide an additional layer of safety?

I'm thinking that most VFR only pilots aren't flying airplanes with autopilot.
 
I'm thinking that most VFR only pilots aren't flying airplanes with autopilot.

No reason to expect that. Quite a lot of rental aircraft are IFR certified and rented by VFR pilots. An IFR certified aircraft is also worth more.

SOME regular practice in good VFR with the autopilot is necessary. An STEC-50 won't do a dang thing if you haven't run it through the self test -- which takes some 15 seconds without pushing any buttons. Inadvertent IMC would be a terrible place to discover this.

Autopilots, particularly if coupled to a GPS and/or glass panel, are not trivial and the pilot should know how to use them. Example: yesterday, I did some practice on an STEC-50 coupled to an Aspen Evolution and Garmin 430. I set the 430 for a flight plan to SAU VOR (to avoid KSFO) and then direct KSTS. By accident, I left the 430 CDI switch set to VLOC, but I remembered to hit the GPSS button on the Evolution. When I turned the autopilot on past the Golden Gate and engaged HDG hold, the aircraft promptly swung around right toward Mt. Tam, and I was below it's peak. Why? The last guy to use this had put PYE VOR in, and the wrong CDI setting had me intercept it. This could have been bad if the weather weren't really good. I disengaged the autopilot immediately, manually steered back on course, and troubleshot. I can imagine all kinds of bad stuff if that had happened in accidental IMC.

Maybe this bears repeating. Autopilots with "heading hold" enabled don't necessarily hold heading. To do that in the aircraft I was in yesterday, you would need to disable GPSS mode on the Evolution.
 
IF your airplane has an autopilot, you should:
Know how it works
Know THAT it works (and deactivate/placard it if if doesn't).

No student pilot in any of our autopilot equipped planes goes to his checkride without knowing how to use it - the examiner is free (and the ones around here DO) to test the student on every piece of equipment in the airplane.

So, you've launched in the plane. If you've been doing the job as PIC, you know how the autopilot works and you did the preflight self-tests so you know how the autopilot works.

In this case using the autopilot would be exactly how I'd recommend doing the 180 to exit the cloud. HDG and ALT (if available) would be my suggestion.
 
How many really go through the AP checkout before launching? I didn't even know it existed till I read the AP manual in depth.
 
No reason to expect that. Quite a lot of rental aircraft are IFR certified and rented by VFR pilots. An IFR certified aircraft is also worth more.
That is true. Unfortunately, when dealing with the rental fleet, I have found that the A/P (if installed) is the most commonly deferred maintenance item.

Only about 10% of the rentals I have flown had a working auto pilot.
 
How many really go through the AP checkout before launching? I didn't even know it existed till I read the AP manual in depth.

I do...at least I did when I had my cherokee.
 
How many really go through the AP checkout before launching? I didn't even know it existed till I read the AP manual in depth.
I do but whenever my AP has crapped out, and it does frequently enough(G1000, with garmin autopilot), it has always passed the ground test. So like every other friggin thing in my plane, passing the ground test does not protect against inflight gremlins.
 
I do but whenever my AP has crapped out, and it does frequently enough(G1000, with garmin autopilot), it has always passed the ground test. So like every other friggin thing in my plane, passing the ground test does not protect against inflight gremlins.

interesting. my rental fleet has three gfc700 airplanes and to my knowledge they've never been squawked. and the folks who fly them use the autopilot,

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk HD
 
throughout my training I was not allowed to use autopilot,
I'm having trouble understanding why an instructor would not allow a primary trainee to learn to use the autopilot. Of course, I'll require that the trainee (instrument or primary) be able to do it all by hand first, but s/he's not getting my endorsement without knowing how to use all the equipment in the plane, at least to the level appropriate to the certificate/rating being pursued.
 
interesting. my rental fleet has three gfc700 airplanes and to my knowledge they've never been squawked. and the folks who fly them use the autopilot,

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk HD
Its not anything I can even squawk because the autopilot works perfectly fine 99.9% of the time. I think there are a number of bugs in the programming of the G1000 that are not reproducible. For example I have had my HSI go out on me three times without warning and then come back on. I had the entire thing gone over by a number of G1000 gurus and nothing was found. With the autopilot the AHRS will crap out for about a second and then the autopilot will disconnect. The AHRS then comes back on and everything is fine. Again I have had the entire unit checked out and everything is fine. I have the engine data recording system and have noted the times when it occurs and no correlation with anything. It is at worse an annoyance and I am just prepared for it.
 
I'm having trouble understanding why an instructor would not allow a primary trainee to learn to use the autopilot. Of course, I'll require that the trainee (instrument or primary) be able to do it all by hand first, but s/he's not getting my endorsement without knowing how to use all the equipment in the plane, at least to the level appropriate to the certificate/rating being pursued.
I barely used autopilot during PPL, though was familiar with its use. When I trained for IF I used it slightly more for familiarity sake, but actually did 98% of my training by hand, and when I went out for my "fun" flights without my instructor I familiarized myself with the autopilot. I did probably about 60% of my IF checkride with autopilot as requested by the DPE, and thankfully knew more about it than he did. I actually got into a "discussion" with him on the best way of doing something with it, and he did not like my way of doing it and asked me to do it "his way." I officially objected and did it his way which of course did not work, and then did it my way which worked quite well, and he was all happy. I personally prefer hand flying, and use my autopilot more as an adjuvant than anything else. It just seems to me too many people are content to let the autopilot do the flying, and for me it takes some of the fun and challenge out of flying. I like the feeling of accomplishment I get when I keep my altitude within 20 feet of assigned, my heading within 2 or 3 degrees, and my approaches on glide slope. I know my autopilot can do it better, but where's the fun in that. If I have some housework to do then I will often use the autopilot then as my attention may be away from my scan for a short time period.
 
Its not anything I can even squawk because the autopilot works perfectly fine 99.9% of the time. I think there are a number of bugs in the programming of the G1000 that are not reproducible. For example I have had my HSI go out on me three times without warning and then come back on. I had the entire thing gone over by a number of G1000 gurus and nothing was found. With the autopilot the AHRS will crap out for about a second and then the autopilot will disconnect. The AHRS then comes back on and everything is fine. Again I have had the entire unit checked out and everything is fine. I have the engine data recording system and have noted the times when it occurs and no correlation with anything. It is at worse an annoyance and I am just prepared for it.

What you describe is a G1000 ADAHRS issue, which is different than a GFC700 issue. I've seen issues liked you've described, and the fix was replacement of various pieces of the system.

Or are you saying that it you only lose the AHRS when the autopilot is on?

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk HD
 
Re: Use of A/P as a Precuation

I would still be interested to see you get in an unusual attitude, have the AI tumble then feel your way out. I am not sure I could do it and I am a very confident pilot.

The AH would tumble - not the AI. But hey - whats the right instrument among friends -

and honestly - given the attitude that the accident reconstructed for JFK, Jr., if he - and he alone - not some unspecified third person who was inverted an maintaining 1 positive G while inverted - if he, and he alone - had pressed HDG he's likely be alive today.
 
What you describe is a G1000 ADAHRS issue, which is different than a GFC700 issue. I've seen issues liked you've described, and the fix was replacement of various pieces of the system.

Or are you saying that it you only lose the AHRS when the autopilot is on?

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk HD
No it occurs when the autopilot is off. The unit checks out perfectly fine according to the three or was it four avionics guys that have looked at it. However, regardless of where the issue is or is not the temporary loss of AHRS(lasting one to two seconds at most) causes the AP to disconnect. If the AP is not on, the loss is not even noticed except for the AHRS sign flashing on the screen. No advisory or warning otherwise. If the AP is on, it will beep and turn off. When AHRS resets push AP and all is well again. Modern electronics aren't they wonderful.
 
No it occurs when the autopilot is off. The unit checks out perfectly fine according to the three or was it four avionics guys that have looked at it. However, regardless of where the issue is or is not the temporary loss of AHRS(lasting one to two seconds at most) causes the AP to disconnect. If the AP is not on, the loss is not even noticed except for the AHRS sign flashing on the screen. No advisory or warning otherwise. If the AP is on, it will beep and turn off. When AHRS resets push AP and all is well again. Modern electronics aren't they wonderful.

ok. in this case the autopilot is working perfectly. it is SUPPOSED to disconnect. when the attitude source is unreliable.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk HD
 
ok. in this case the autopilot is working perfectly. it is SUPPOSED to disconnect. when the attitude source is unreliable.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk HD

I know the ap is doing what it is supposed to do. I should have been clearer, but in any case it still is crapping out on me. Well I guess it is the AHRS and thus the G1000 and not the autopilot, but the result is the same.
 
Re: Use of A/P as a Precuation

But I'd also point out the AP should not be a crutch that allows a pilot to believe he or she should take off into conditions that will invite need of it.
the hazardous condition I face is the boredome of cross country flight. the autopilot is the crutch I need to tackle this hazard.
 
Back
Top