Use of A/P as a Precaution

N521MA

N521MA

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Perhaps I am making this question more complicated than it really is, however....

You are VFR pilot - flying VFR at night, CAVU conditions and everyone onboard is fat, dumb and happy. As the flight continues, you realize that you just penetrated a thick cloud, 5 seconds goes by and you're still in it. Although you're not an IFR rated pilot you're able to maintain level flight but at this point you realize you don't know how big is this cloud and its time for a nice and level 180 to get out.

Question: would anyone recommend to a VFR only pilot, as a simple precaution option and given that aircraft is equipped, to hit Heading and Alt hold and use a heading bug to make a nice and level 180.

Although the pilot is well capable of making the 180 by hand, do you think using A/P will provide an additional layer of safety?
 
Re: Use of A/P as a Precuation

JFK, Jr. would be alive today if he pressed HDG.
 
Re: Use of A/P as a Precuation

If I were a VFR pilot, that's how I would recover from inadvertent IMC -- by using heading and altitude hold on the A/P, and then select a heading that is 180 degrees from the original direction.
 
Re: Use of A/P as a Precuation

If autopilot was functional, why wasn't it already engaged? Saving it for the prom?
 
But where is the break point of relying on A/P too much and at the same time beginning to loose your hand flying skills?
 
Inverted said:
Still doesn't know whether the plane is right side up or not. That's why there is a LVL button.
Click to expand...

I don't think all A/P systems have that option.
 
Re: Use of A/P as a Precuation

What great lessons of the universe does a pilot gain by hand-flying in level cruise?

N521MA said:
But where is the break point of relying on A/P too much and at the same time beginning to loose your hand flying skills?
Click to expand...
 
Re: Use of A/P as a Precuation

I'd use the autopilot to get out, but please find a CFII and do some attitude flying under the hood even if you don't pursue your full IR if you are going on lots of long VFR cross countries.
 
Re: Use of A/P as a Precuation

N521MA said:
But where is the break point of relying on A/P too much and at the same time beginning to loose your hand flying skills?
Click to expand...

I am sure people will disagree with this, but proper use of the A/P is just as an important skill as hand flying. I purposefully hand fly approaches about half the time just to make sure I keep both skill sets up. Not that my views really help the GA pilot. But when you fly higher and faster, the A/P is required to be operating and used so proper use is a required skill.
 
Re: Use of A/P as a Precuation

N521MA said:
I don't think all A/P systems have that option.
Click to expand...

No they don't. In Fact Cirri' didn't come equipped when Kennedy went down. Knowing how autopilots can screw you up is important too. A lot of systems will not turn, or stop the turn if you quickly change a heading bug exactly 180 degrees off of your current heading.
 
Re: Use of A/P as a Precuation

If the heading bug were set 180 degress from the current heading when he engaged the ap, wouldn't that accomplish exactly what he wanted to do?
Inverted said:
No they don't. In Fact Cirri' didn't come equipped when Kennedy went down. Knowing how autopilots can screw you up is important too. A lot of systems will not turn, or stop the turn if you quickly change a heading bug exactly 180 degrees off of your current heading.
Click to expand...
 
MSPAviator said:
I'd use the autopilot to get out, but please find a CFII and do some attitude flying under the hood even if you don't pursue your full IR if you are going on lots of long VFR cross countries.
Click to expand...

March 4th - VFR check ride
March 5th - IFR rating training starts.

Although I am still a student, and learning a ton just from this forum, I truly believe IFR rating is like Amex credit card - "don't leave home without it!"
 
Re: Use of A/P as a Precuation

wabower said:
If the heading bug were set 180 degress from the current heading when he engaged the ap, wouldn't that accomplish exactly what he wanted to do?
Click to expand...

No no, if you were bugged on 180, and wanted to turn 360, if (on some systems) you turn the bug quickly the plane wont turn.
 
Re: Use of A/P as a Precuation

Can you spin the bug on a light single fast enough to demonstrate this? How many times will your wrist rotate before it breaks?

Inverted said:
No no, if you were bugged on 180, and wanted to turn 360, if (on some systems) if you turn the bug quickly the plane wont turn.
Click to expand...
 
Re: Use of A/P as a Precuation

I think autopilots are great. Anything to lesson the pilot's workload to concentrate on other tasks like engine management, traffic avoidance, navigation, etc... is an asset. I am also of the camp that hand flying in level cruise is not a skill builder.
 
Re: Use of A/P as a Precuation

Inverted said:
HDG mode doesn't help with vertigo.
Click to expand...

sure it does, if you are smart enough to press it. and not fight the airplane. Levels the wings and turns to the heading programmed. Doesn't help with altitude - but letting go of the yoke solves that problem too.
 
Re: Use of A/P as a Precuation

wabower said:
Can you spin the bug on a light single fast enough to demonstrate this? How many times will your wrist rotate before it breaks?
Click to expand...

Ya I used to have this problem with King autopilots in Cessnas. Never in a really fast singe. And it only takes a flick of the wrist to twist 180. The Altamatic II and II would do this too. I wouldn't be able to get even close to trying to make the Lear do it. It banks too simultaneously when you change the heading bug.
 
Re: Use of A/P as a Precuation

Inverted said:
Still doesn't know whether the plane is right side up or not. That's why there is a LVL button.
Click to expand...

The dust coming 'up' from the floor tells you you are inverted. . . . along with the sound of the engine stopping if its carbed or if you've been inverted long enough to lose oil pressure in a non-acro airplane.
 
Re: Use of A/P as a Precuation

comanchepilot said:
sure it does, if you are smart enough to press it. and not fight the airplane. Levels the wings and turns to the heading programmed. Doesn't help with altitude - but letting go of the yoke solves that problem too.
Click to expand...

Uhhh I am sorry but no. The plane doesn't know if its right side up or upside down. When you hit HDG it just tries to turn to the heading with a standard rate turn. If you are upside down it will try to turn upside down or probably not engage. I could never get the A/P to engage in the SF260 when inverted (yes I have tried). Letting go of the yoke only lets the airplane fly its self. You better hope you have a dynamically stable airplane to let go of the yoke and expect it to eventually level its self.
 
Re: Use of A/P as a Precuation

Inverted said:
I am sure people will disagree with this, but proper use of the A/P is just as an important skill as hand flying. I purposefully hand fly approaches about half the time just to make sure I keep both skill sets up. Not that my views really help the GA pilot. But when you fly higher and faster, the A/P is required to be operating and used so proper use is a required skill.
Click to expand...

I have an S-Tec 60-2 in the Comanche and I can hand fly the airplane tighter than the AP on an approach. We ALL should be able to do that. Basically because I can see whats gonna happen and not have to wait for 'x' to occur before 'y' correction.
 
Re: Use of A/P as a Precuation

comanchepilot said:
The dust coming 'up' from the floor tells you you are inverted. . . . along with the sound of the engine stopping if its carbed or if you've been inverted long enough to lose oil pressure in a non-acro airplane.
Click to expand...

Again, not so much. If you keep positive G on the airplane when upside down you can't tell you are upside down. The "dust" doesn't come up from the floor, and the engine doesn't quit.

I challenge you on a dark night, in IMC to get yourself upside down and "feel" your way out of it. You might be surprised.
 
Re: Use of A/P as a Precuation

comanchepilot said:
I have an S-Tec 60-2 in the Comanche and I can hand fly the airplane tighter than the AP on an approach. We ALL should be able to do that. Basically because I can see whats gonna happen and not have to wait for 'x' to occur before 'y' correction.
Click to expand...

Ya I hated the S-Tec 30 and S-Tec 60 for autopilot coupled approaches. I have never seen one fly a standard rate turn either. Always less than standard.
 
Re: Use of A/P as a Precuation

EVERYTHING [single engine -edit] under Part 23 and CAR 3 is dynamically stable except the acro certified airplanes.

I don't think there are too many situations where someone inadvertantly encounters IMC and is immediately inverted in a 2G dive so that the dirt and oil stay on the 'floor.' I'm not seeing it. Inverted all sorts of bad things start happening to the average VFR pilot - none of which they prob have the experience to understand - but falling out of their seat is one of them.
 
Re: Use of A/P as a Precuation

Inverted said:
Ya I hated the S-Tec 30 and S-Tec 60 for autopilot coupled approaches. I have never seen one fly a standard rate turn either. Always less than standard.
Click to expand...

you know you can send the unit back to Cobham and they'll update the firmware for free - I have no problem with standard rate turns in the airplane. The approach capture -even with a 530 - is pretty lame, You need to have the stupid thing lower than the glideslope straight and level before it'll capture- if ATC is turning you inside a couple miles of the GS - the needle has moved at all you're on your own!
 
Re: Use of A/P as a Precuation

Inverted said:
I challenge you on a dark night, in IMC to get yourself upside down and "feel" your way out of it. You might be surprised.
Click to expand...

not having that happen is one of the reasons I got an instrument rating . . . :D:D
 
Re: Use of A/P as a Precuation

Well, this is EXACTLY how Kennedy died. Not similar, but exactly the situation he encountered with a part 23 airplane, with all of the bells and whistles. It happens, when I taught EMT, I would have students close their eyes and I would put them completely upside down. They were completely shocked at how different it was from what they thought.
 
Re: Use of A/P as a Precuation

comanchepilot said:
not having that happen is one of the reasons I got an instrument rating . . . :D:D
Click to expand...

I would still be interested to see you get in an unusual attitude, have the AI tumble then feel your way out. I am not sure I could do it and I am a very confident pilot.
 
Re: Use of A/P as a Precuation

Were we responding to the OP's scenario or discussing night acro under the hood?

Inverted said:
Uhhh I am sorry but no. The plane doesn't know if its right side up or upside down. When you hit HDG it just tries to turn to the heading with a standard rate turn. If you are upside down it will try to turn upside down or probably not engage. I could never get the A/P to engage in the SF260 when inverted (yes I have tried). Letting go of the yoke only lets the airplane fly its self. You better hope you have a dynamically stable airplane to let go of the yoke and expect it to eventually level its self.
Click to expand...
 
Re: Use of A/P as a Precuation

Inverted said:
Uhhh I am sorry but no. The plane doesn't know if its right side up or upside down. When you hit HDG it just tries to turn to the heading with a standard rate turn. If you are upside down it will try to turn upside down or probably not engage. I could never get the A/P to engage in the SF260 when inverted (yes I have tried). Letting go of the yoke only lets the airplane fly its self. You better hope you have a dynamically stable airplane to let go of the yoke and expect it to eventually level its self.
Click to expand...

As I recall, we're talking 5 seconds after entering the cloud. You're not going to be inverted within 5 seconds without feeling SOMEthing at least, so I would think this point is moot.
 
Re: Use of A/P as a Precuation

N521MA said:
Perhaps I am making this question more complicated than it really is, however....

You are VFR pilot - flying VFR at night, CAVU conditions and everyone onboard is fat, dumb and happy. As the flight continues, you realize that you just penetrated a thick cloud, 5 seconds goes by and you're still in it. Although you're not an IFR rated pilot you're able to maintain level flight but at this point you realize you don't know how big is this cloud and its time for a nice and level 180 to get out.

Question: would anyone recommend to a VFR only pilot, as a simple precaution option and given that aircraft is equipped, to hit Heading and Alt hold and use a heading bug to make a nice and level 180.

Although the pilot is well capable of making the 180 by hand, do you think using A/P will provide an additional layer of safety?
Click to expand...

For me this would depend on the individual pilot. Let's imagine a VFR-only pilot who has regularly practiced procedures for inadvertently entering IMC. I think he should avoid introducing any complications (viz. the A/P). But if a pilot caught unawares is suddenly in IMC and losing SA, I think it's a very nice idea as it removes any worries about having to maintain heading.
 
Re: Use of A/P as a Precuation

The superior pilot uses his/her superior judgement to avoid having to demonstrate his/her superior skill. Be smart -- turn it on and use it rather than relying solely on your limited instrument skills. If it won't engage, fall back on your skill.
 
Re: Use of A/P as a Precuation

N521MA said:
Question: would anyone recommend to a VFR only pilot, as a simple precaution option and given that aircraft is equipped, to hit Heading and Alt hold and use a heading bug to make a nice and level 180.
Click to expand...
The simplest answer is yes, I have known several CFIs that recommend to their VFR Private Pilot students to use the A/P if there was a working one in the airplane to assist them if they inadvertantly found themselves in IMC.
 
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