Use Full Callsign

[SkyHog]

So the other day, I was flying in 3552E around Albuquerque. Some other plane was there too, I don't know the full callsign, but it ended in 92E. The controller was using the shortened callsigns for both of us - 52E and 92E.

The problem was that he wasn't saying "Niner two echo" he was saying "Nine Two Echo." I was afraid of confusion, so every time he talked to me, I responded with "Skyhawk Three-Five-Five-Two-Echo" even though he was using the abbreviated callsign. He continued using the abbreviated callsign for both of us.

The question is - I know that ATC can request one to use their full callsign, but can a pilot request that ATC use the full callsign? I didn't want to step on the controller's toes, since he was being kind of a jerk anyways, so I just listened even more carefully than normal, and diagnosed whether or not he could have been talking to me every time he spoke to each of us.

 

[BillG]

I hate when controllers do that. Usually I liked the shortened callsign of course, but sometimes things are just too similar and I get confused...

 

[Carol]

Most of the time I have been in that situation the controller has used the full call sign. If I am in doubt about whether any call was made to me or to someone else I ask, "was that for xx41P?" If that has to happen several times the controller gets the idea. Okay, maybe the idea he got was that he's dealing with a loony woman but at least I am clearer about the messages coming to me.

 

[Bill]

maybe the idea he got was that he's dealing with a loony woman

Ah, he figured it out

 

[Carol]

Ah, he figured it out

 

[Anthony]

but at least I am clearer about the messages coming to me.

Is the tin foil hat helping? How does it feel under the headphones?

 

[Michael]

That happened to me out by Palm Springs recently, except the controller issued a warning first that two call signs were similar, then he used full call signs when talking with us. This is out by the Julian VOR where there was an accident recently from that exact situation. The controller gave one plane instructions to descend, and the wrong plane answered. That plane ended up crashing into the mountain. They are still real careful out there now. but its a shame other controllers become complacent in these situations. It sometimes takes an accident before their ways are changed.

 

[Len Lanetti]

"was that for xx41P?"

The Airman's Information Manual (AIM) provides good information though it does not specifically address the issue of getting a controller to realize that there are similar call signs on the frequency.

http://www.aopa.org/members/files/aim/chapter_4.html#4-2-4

If I think there are call signs that can be misunderstood I will continue to use my aircraft type and full call sign even after the controller has used the abbreviated call sign. I think the controllers recognize when a pilot is using the full call sign and it triggers them to do so as well (really the same idea as pilots not using abbreviated call sign until after the controller does but in reverse).

Having recently gone the long way around NY going to Providence and then back home via the reverse route I got a chance to sample several NY area controllers.

They were all very good. Two (one in each direction) had strong accents and concentration was required to understand what they were saying. A few other PIC's made polite comments regarding "readability". There was also a controller with what I think was a bad mic. I think his mic was bad because his verbalization was good and after a few minutes he was releived and the new controller sounded much clearer.

Len

 

[poadeleted20]

When there are similar call signs on the same freq, the controller is supposed to notify both pilots involved and use extra caution, e.g., both my Tiger 22RL and a Cessna 22RB on the same freq the other day -- "TIGER, that's TIGER 2 Romeo LIMA, contact Indianapolis Center on..." [emphasis by voice].

 

[Ghery]

I heard this a couple weeks ago flying from Denver to Seattle on United. Two airlines had planes up with the same flight number, only the airline name was different. The flight first on the frequency was warned that the second flight was coming, and while both were on frequency the controller was very careful to make sure that the exact ID of the flight was clear with each instruction. Well handled.

 

[EdFred]

What I love is when the controllers ask your type and I say "PA-28" and from then on it's "Cessna 2212R" Excuse me?

Even saying I'm a Cherokee wont get em to quit calling me Cessna.

 

[Carol]

Is the tin foil hat helping? How does it feel under the headphones?

Ahem. It is built into my head set.

 

[Skip Miller]

What I love is when the controllers ask your type and I say "PA-28" and from then on it's "Cessna 2212R" Excuse me?

Even saying I'm a Cherokee wont get em to quit calling me Cessna.

I like the joke, supposedly true, last seen on the "short final" section of AvWeb:

Approach: "Citation 123, if you stop calling me Center, I won't call you Twin Cessna.."

-Skip

 

[TangoWhiskey]

I like the joke, supposedly true, last seen on the "short final" section of AvWeb:

Approach: "Citation 123, if you stop calling me Center, I won't call you Twin Cessna.."

-Skip

I heard one I liked, written by a Cessna pilot who'd just been cleared to depart a major airport:

"Cessna 12345, cleared for takeoff. Southwest 737, taxi into position and hold, caution wake turbulence departing Cessna."



Gotta love controllers with a sense of humor.

 

[mikea]

What I love is when the controllers ask your type and I say "PA-28" and from then on it's "Cessna 2212R" Excuse me?

Even saying I'm a Cherokee wont get em to quit calling me Cessna.

What are you supposed to say to answer that question?

I have said, "Cherokee Nxxx is a Pee Aye Two Eight Two Three Five" when I guess the right answer is "is a Papa Alpha Two Eight Slant Bravo." Thankfully, the controller didn't yell at me when I was out of the practice and gave the first response.

I've had them insist on calling me a Dakota when they saw me doing 160 knots in a powered descent.

As I said, I guess I say the full four syrabel call too fast so I often get "Say your full call sign," too. I started routinely saying "Cherokee November N N N Mike" and then controllers wondered why I was doing that. I canna win.

 

[Larry Liebscher]

What are you supposed to say to answer that question?

I have said, "Cherokee Nxxx is a Pee Aye Two Eight Two Three Five" when I guess the right answer is "is a Papa Alpha Two Eight Slant Bravo." Thankfully, the controller didn't yell at me when I was out of the practice and gave the first response.

I've had them insist on calling me a Dakota when they saw me doing 160 knots in a powered descent.

As I said, I guess I say the three syrabel call too fast so I often get "Say your full call sign," too. I started routinely saying "Cherokee November N N N Mike" and then controllers wondered why I was doing that. I canna win.

I always use "Cherokee 55628" after being admonished by one controller when I used "Arrow 55628". I too get "Warrior 55628", "Archer 55628", "Arrow 55628", as well as "Cherokee 55628".

I'll answer to any of them. As long as the controller isn't saying "Hey, the dummy in the Piper, ....." I figure I'm alright.

 

[Lawreston]

My tail # is N66148. What are the mathmatical odds of similar a/c # on freq. if I use "Cessna 148" after initial call-up?

HR

 

[mdreger]

To answer the question. Not only should the controller have been using the full call sign, he also should have made both of you aware of the situation.

From FAA Order 7110.65P, the rules by which ATC operates:

http://www.faa.gov/atpubs/ATC/Chp2/atc0204.html#2-4-9

2-4-9. ABBREVIATED TRANSMISSIONS

​

Transmissions may be abbreviated as follows:
​

a. Use the identification prefix and the last 3 digits or letters of the aircraft identification after communications have been established. Do not abbreviate similar sounding aircraft identifications or

and

​

http://www.faa.gov/atpubs/ATC/Chp2/atc0204.html#2-4-15

2-4-15. EMPHASIS FOR CLARITY
​

Emphasize appropriate digits, letters, or similar sounding words to aid in distinguishing between similar sounding aircraft identifications. Additionally:
​

a. Notify each pilot concerned when communicating with aircraft having similar sounding identifications.
​

EXAMPLE-
"United Thirty-one United, Miami Center, U.S. Air Thirty-one is also on this frequency, acknowledge."

 

[Dave Krall CFII]

My tail # is N66148. What are the mathmatical odds of similar a/c # on freq. if I use "Cessna 148" after initial call-up?

HR

Those odds would be exactly inversely proportional to the need to be understood & identified well, (times the irate factor of the controller + the pilot) squared.

 

[Carol]

Those odds would be exactly inversely proportional to the need to be understood & identified well, (times the irate factor of the controller + the pilot) squared.

huh?

 

[Dave Krall CFII]

huh?

Did I miss something again ?

 

[Lawreston]

Did I miss something again ?

Nah; but if I delete the question the answer wouldn't make sense, anyway.

HR

 

[T Bone]

My tail # is N66148. What are the mathmatical odds of similar a/c # on freq. if I use "Cessna 148" after initial call-up?

HR

Well, if you flew to my neck of the woods, it is quite likely you could run into (poor choice of words there!) Cessna 418, one of the FBO's six 152's. Similar enough?

Nick, on my checkride, at KPTK on the ground, getting ready to do another pattern, there was an experimental (forget the type) looking for take off at the same time with a callsign of 230 WB. I was in Cessna 230. To make it slightly more confusing, onece in the pattern we encountered tower talking with another Cessna that ended in 203. On this one I extended the downwind leg while calling tower to verify if a call was for us or one of the other two. I think the DPE liked that (she was unsure herself who they were talking to).

 

[Jeff Oslick]

My tail # is N66148. What are the mathmatical odds of similar a/c # on freq. if I use "Cessna 148" after initial call-up?

HR

Depends on the plane & concentration of the type in local airspace. Many 1977 Cessna's have tail numbers similar to mine, and I personally know of at least two other '77 182s in the LA area with nearly identical tail #s to mine. If you're flying a newer Cessna in busy airspace, odds are also increased that you have another ###SP or ###ME (many year 2000 Cessnas) for the tail #.

Jeff

 

[Dave Siciliano]

Yesterday, while coming into Portage Wisconsin from Dallas, I encountered an interesting twist: Madison was talking to a Cessna and using its full call sign then called me. Baron shounds quite a bit different than Cessna to me and the only commonality was Baron 322KS and Cessna something that ended TS. Center called me and asked that I stop my descent at 4,000 feet for traffic below: the Cessna driver immediately got on and said Cennter you want Cessna XXXTS to climb to 4,000 and the reply wasn't this short.

I couldn't get on before Center came back on and said Cessna XXXTS, I'm not talking to you, please stay off the frequency. Center called me using the full Baron 322KS and repeated the instructions again. The Cessna pilot immediately came back on and in a long about way asked Center why they were asking him to climb to 4,000 feet when was VFR and didn't want to climb, etc.

Center got visibly upset and said in very slow, loud words Cessna XXXTS I'M NOT TALKING TO YOU SIR, I'm calling a Baron, please stay off the frequency. Center called me again just with the call sign emphasizing Baron!!

Guess what, my friend in the Cessna wasn't done yet. But he finally used his ears for a minute and center was able to reach me.

Never had anything quite like this happen before. One mistake (which I have also made, but never a long back and forth like this.)

Upon reflection. Had center just waited a minute to chew this guy out, I could have gotten on a minute to acknowledge the instructions. But as soon as one quit talking the other was on freq again.

When center finally got me I was already down to 4,000 and had leveled off---geesh. Center was pretty worked up. When I was able to reply, I told the controller I had tried to respond but couldn't get on the frequency. She said: YES I KNOW!!

I cancelled flight following and came in VFR.

Best,

Dave

 

[Ghery]

I always use "Cherokee 55628" after being admonished by one controller when I used "Arrow 55628". I too get "Warrior 55628", "Archer 55628", "Arrow 55628", as well as "Cherokee 55628".

??? I always ID "Arrow 9351N" and nobody has complained yet. Oh well, to each his own, I guess.

 

[SJP]

Yesterday, while coming into Portage Wisconsin from Dallas, I encountered an interesting twist: Madison was talking to a Cessna and using its full call sign then called me. Baron shounds quite a bit different than Cessna to me and the only commonality was Baron 322KS and Cessna something that ended TS. Center called me and asked that I stop my descent at 4,000 feet for traffic below: the Cessna driver immediately got on and said Cennter you want Cessna XXXTS to climb to 4,000 and the reply wasn't this short.

I couldn't get on before Center came back on and said Cessna XXXTS, I'm not talking to you, please stay off the frequency. Center called me using the full Baron 322KS and repeated the instructions again. The Cessna pilot immediately came back on and in a long about way asked Center why they were asking him to climb to 4,000 feet when was VFR and didn't want to climb, etc.

Center got visibly upset and said in very slow, loud words Cessna XXXTS I'M NOT TALKING TO YOU SIR, I'm calling a Baron, please stay off the frequency. Center called me again just with the call sign emphasizing Baron!!

Guess what, my friend in the Cessna wasn't done yet. But he finally used his ears for a minute and center was able to reach me.

Never had anything quite like this happen before. One mistake (which I have also made, but never a long back and forth like this.)

Upon reflection. Had center just waited a minute to chew this guy out, I could have gotten on a minute to acknowledge the instructions. But as soon as one quit talking the other was on freq again.

When center finally got me I was already down to 4,000 and had leveled off---geesh. Center was pretty worked up. When I was able to reply, I told the controller I had tried to respond but couldn't get on the frequency. She said: YES I KNOW!!

I cancelled flight following and came in VFR.

Best,

Dave

We've had problems along these lines in the Mooney. Com 2 has a habit of being a little slow coming off the squelch - and if you have a particularly quick controller who is talking before hitting their button all the way, it's real easy for the 'Mooney' piece to get dropped, or worse, the first piece of the callsign. We usually end up switching back over to Com 1 on these occasions, unless we are only "...X-ray" in the sky.