UPS 747 down in Dubai

TangoWhiskey

TangoWhiskey

Touchdown! Greaser!
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3Green
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KJWY - Mid-Way Regional
http://www.komonews.com/news/national/102166699.html

This headline made me nervous... I have a friend who's in Dubai, flies for the same carrier--but he's getting checked out on the -800; this was a -400 enroute to Germany.

100903_dubai_crash.jpg
 
Several reports of inflight fire. :(

Prayers for crew, family, folks on ground.
 
Some tweets from an A330/A340 captain who lives near the crash site and saw it happen - Best read from the bottom up:

Looked like the speed was bleeding off after passing my house.Very shallow descend last few100 ft.

Yes speed must have been about 250kts with thrust at Idle. Looked clean or close to clean config.

Map of crashsite #UPS #747 #Dubai http://yfrog.com/0aabwkj

Crashed on edge of Army camp. Airbase is another 5NM to S of crash site.

No Div to SHJ. Crew was high for 12L with no instruments due smoke. Started right descending turn, Idle thrust.

No outside fire/smoke.

#UPS #747 #crash:Smoke in cockpit 120nm outbd DXB.Return hot&high.No instruments left.Asking 4 ALT,Speed,Hdg.Crashed on trying 2nd app

not extremely noisy due to very low power, if anything at all. #UPS #747 #crash

Let's clear up:#UPS #747 crashed NOT on Road, but on edge of construction site. No sign of fire as it overflew home, sec before impact.

No sign of fire before impact. Crashed NOT on road as media says.Fire spreading min 1sq/km.

house is under SID,normal altitude min 3000ft. Overflew at est 300ft,very low power if anything. Saw it crash. #UPS #747

doubt the dumping. overflew my house at 300ft and no smell of fuel... Crashed secs later!

shocked!Never been as lucky&probably never will again.Overflew our compound with 550houses extremely low, est.200ft.Saw it crash!

Seen the #UPS 747 #crash site in Dubai. Surely not on Emirates road. Possible crash on construction site #dubai

Just escaped B747 crash #dubai ! A/c overflew my house at about 300ft and crashed a few km further! #UPS #crash
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http://www.avherald.com/h?article=4307772e&opt=0

Pilots on frequency of Bahrain Center reported, that the airplane had been enroute overhead the Arabian Gulf about 120nm westnorthwest of Dubai when the crew performed an emergency descent and reported a fire in the cockpit. Later they reported they were unable to read their instruments and were unable to change frequency asking for frequent updates on their altitude and speed from ATC. They were vectored for a straight in approach to Dubai's runway 12L. Being too high and too fast for landing they were offered to divert to Sharjah or join a right hand downwind for another visual approach to runway 12L. The airplane impacted ground about 20 minutes after declaring emergency.
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bbchien said:
Fire in the cabin is very very bad stuff.....
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A typical airliner will last 15-20 minutes with an uncontrolled fuselage fire. Get on it on the ground and get out. From what I am reading this is exactly what this crew was trying to do. Sad day at Big Brown and for the family and friends of these two pilots in particular.
 
In the early days at UPS there were several cargo fire incidents which lead to domestic aviation industry discussion concerning smoke detection vs heat detection systems being mandated by the FAA. The heat detection system consisted of sensors located above each container position. It was demonstrated that a fire in an igloo container would be blazing long before the detector went off, especially if the container was not full. The heat detectors sensed heat at the top og the container many minutes prior to the smoke detector's detection. Of course UPS and Fedex insisted that the already installed smoke detection systems were adequate, so the FAA let it ride. Certain foreign carriers opted for the new heat sensor system, which I think was even mandated by certain aviation authorities. The UPS DC 8 that experienced an inflight cargo fire and burned on the ramp in PHL had the anitquated early smoke detector system. Also, the new smoke masks have small oxygen generators, I can't recall how many minutes they are rated for, can anyone help me on this?
 
These poor guys had no chance :(


"The time interval between fire detection and the onset of air craft system failures was two minutes and thirty seconds at the point of detection. In all probability the fire had damaged the control cables prior to autopilot disconnection.......Within three minutes of the fire alarm, smoke enters the cockpit area. This smoke in the cockpit, from a continuous source near and contiguous with the cockpit area, entered with sufficient volume and density to totally obscure the pilot’s view of the instruments, control panels and alert indicating systems for the duration of the flight."
 
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FlyingTiger said:
These poor guys had no chance :(


"The time interval between fire detection and the onset of air craft system failures was two minutes and thirty seconds at the point of detection. In all probability the fire had damaged the control cables prior to autopilot disconnection.......Within three minutes of the fire alarm, smoke enters the cockpit area. This smoke in the cockpit, from a continuous source near and contiguous with the cockpit area, entered with sufficient volume and density to totally obscure the pilot’s view of the instruments, control panels and alert indicating systems for the duration of the flight."
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Pretty much. I think the FO really did an amazing job with what he had, especially considering he was relatively new to the airplane.

Interesting note that the Captain had apparently identified that manual pitch control was degraded/lost, and put it back on A/P but did not fully communicate that to the FO who discovered the hard way when he kicked off the A/P near the very end and the airplane went into an uncommanded descent with the control column full back. I wonder if the FO would have been able to make a survivable crash landing if he had stayed on the A/P?

Not judging anyone -just pondering the outcome.
 
Scary, scary stuff. I suspect most people share my view that an in-flight fire is the absolute last emergency I ever want to deal with. The FO seems to have acted commendably under incredible pressure, especially with the relay chain for communication.
 
Why there isn't a push to make all lithium battery shipments Hazmat, I have no idea. I always hated loading up knowing that there were lithium batteries in the back, even on the small package freighters I flew for a UPS contractor.
 
Reading how the inability to see controls added to the problems, would situations like this be an application of augmented reality? Providing the crew the ability to see the panel at least?
 
SixPapaCharlie said:
Or even breaking out a window
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Report said the PACK1 unit[1] went offline and one of the purposes of the PACK1 is to positively pressurize the cockpit in the event of fire to keep smoke from entering. It went offline[2] early in the fire event and went unnoticed by the crew.[3] Chain of events and all that. :(

[1] Whatever the hell that is
[2] That unit also had problems going offline in the previous flight segment but no problems were found on the ground.
[3] Would it have come back up or was it fire damaged by then? I didn't read in depth enough to find that answer
 
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SixPapaCharlie said:
Or even breaking out a window
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Breaking or opening a window would only work to diminish/remove the smoke if you were also able create a larger opening in the back or behind the cockpit otherwise, you might end up making the smoke worse, as if it wasn't bad enough.
 
Bill Jennings said:
Report said the PACK1 unit[1] went offline and one of the purposes of the PACK1 is to positively pressurize the cockpit in the event of fire to keep smoke from entering. It went offline early in the fire event.[2] Chain of events and all that. :(

[1] Whatever the hell that is
[2] That unit also had problems going offline in the previous flight segment but no problems were found on the ground.
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"Packs" are normally referring to which units are proving the bleed air/conditioned air for pressurization and other pneumatic needs.
 
AggieMike88 said:
I too was curious if opening one of the windows would have helped with the smoke in the cockpit issue.
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You can't just open a window on a pressurized airplane even when it's not that pressurized. There is a lot of force against it from the inside. And I know this because....

I'm guessing you also don't want to break it out, especially if you are sitting next to it. Dumping the pressurization another way might be an option but I don't know anything about 747 systems to know if this is suggested or an option in cases of smoke and fumes.
 
Fearless Tower said:
Pretty much. I think the FO really did an amazing job with what he had, especially considering he was relatively new to the airplane.

Interesting note that the Captain had apparently identified that manual pitch control was degraded/lost, and put it back on A/P but did not fully communicate that to the FO who discovered the hard way when he kicked off the A/P near the very end and the airplane went into an uncommanded descent with the control column full back. I wonder if the FO would have been able to make a survivable crash landing if he had stayed on the A/P?

Not judging anyone -just pondering the outcome.
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The F/O was aware of LOC.

And the F/O was using the autopilot for that very reason until the end.

15:15:37|CVR|CAPT: alright. I've barely got control.
• 15:15:47|CVR|CAPT: alright… find out what the hell's goin’ on, I've barely got control of the aircraft.

15:16:43|CVR|CAPT: I have no control of the aircraft
• 15:16:47|CVR|F.O: okay... what?
• 15:16:53|CVR|CAPT: I have no pitch control of the aircraft
• 15:16:57|CVR|F.O: you don't have control at all?
 
Everskyward said:
You can't just open a window on a pressurized airplane even when it's not that pressurized. There is a lot of force against it from the inside. And I know this because....

I'm guessing you also don't want to break it out, especially if you are sitting next to it. Dumping the pressurization another way might be an option but I don't know anything about 747 systems to know if this is suggested or an option in cases of smoke and fumes.
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Even if you could, it likely wouldn't help unless you have a larger vent behind for the smoke to go.
 
Fearless Tower said:
Even if you could, it likely wouldn't help unless you have a larger vent behind for the smoke to go.
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They did. They had a smoke vent, the Captain opened it, and it compounded the problem by sucking additional smoke into the cockpit.
 
Everskyward said:
You can't just open a window on a pressurized airplane even when it's not that pressurized. There is a lot of force against it from the inside. And I know this because....

I'm guessing you also don't want to break it out, especially if you are sitting next to it. Dumping the pressurization another way might be an option but I don't know anything about 747 systems to know if this is suggested or an option in cases of smoke and fumes.
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frcabot said:
They did. They had a smoke vent, the Captain opened it, and it compounded the problem by sucking additional smoke into the cockpit.
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Horrible accident may the crew RIP.

Question about the above posts. Since there were only two crew members on board and no pax would it have been possible at altitude for the crew to don O2 masks and depressurize the plane thus depriving the fire of O2 with the hope of extinguishing the flame due to lack of O2? It would be a whole different ball of wax in a Pax plane.
 
AdamZ said:
Horrible accident may the crew RIP.

Question about the above posts. Since there were only two crew members on board and no pax would it have been possible at altitude for the crew to don O2 masks and depressurize the plane thus depriving the fire of O2 with the hope of extinguishing the flame due to lack of O2? It would be a whole different ball of wax in a Pax plane.
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I believe the report says they did (or did try) to depressurize the cargo hold.
 
AdamZ said:
Horrible accident may the crew RIP.

Question about the above posts. Since there were only two crew members on board and no pax would it have been possible at altitude for the crew to don O2 masks and depressurize the plane thus depriving the fire of O2 with the hope of extinguishing the flame due to lack of O2? It would be a whole different ball of wax in a Pax plane.
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Yes and in fact that's what the checklist calls for but there were 3 issues. First, lithium battery fires aren't oxygen dependent so depressurizing the cargo hold didn't work. The depressurization of the main deck would have helped but the checklist calls for 25k feet and they descended almost immediately to 10k, thus the depressurization was not effective. Finally, they were having a lot of system failures including control failures and smoke was entering the cockpit (in part due to pack 1 being off) and so they probably didn't want to remain at altitude to try and extinguish the fire.
 
The crew did survive. The copilot is the spouse of my (previous) coworker... He is flying again.
 
frcabot said:
The F/O was aware of LOC.

And the F/O was using the autopilot for that very reason until the end.

15:15:37|CVR|CAPT: alright. I've barely got control.
• 15:15:47|CVR|CAPT: alright… find out what the hell's goin’ on, I've barely got control of the aircraft.

15:16:43|CVR|CAPT: I have no control of the aircraft
• 15:16:47|CVR|F.O: okay... what?
• 15:16:53|CVR|CAPT: I have no pitch control of the aircraft
• 15:16:57|CVR|F.O: you don't have control at all?
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Really, if you are going to critique my comments, at least read the full report.

This what I was referring to:
Findings 3.1

51. The Captain selected the Autopilot on and leveled out following the pitch control problems. The aircraft remained in a stable steady state when controlled via the AP. There was no communication between the Captain and the F.O. that the controllability problem was resolved using the AP.
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