Upgrade Recommendation 74Sundowner

[moe007]

Hello fellow Aviatiors im in the process of acquiring a 1974 Beechcraft C23 Sundowner to finish out my PPL and other ratings and panel is as outdated as you can imagine but its in good shape. However the instruments are very much outdated. The good side of this is the engine has only 92 SMOH and compression numbers are strong and healthy. I need you help in recommending some budget friendly options that will accommodate IFR and Commercial ratings and will not obliterate the bank so to speak. Ive attached some pics for your review and looking forward to everyone responses.

 

[Jesse Saint]

The most budgetafriendly panel would be a pair of G5’s and a navigator like the GPS175. For commercial you would need an auto pilot, so a 2-servo GFC500. You could probably do this for under $40,000, but not much under.

 

[luvflyin]

The most budgetafriendly panel would be a pair of G5’s and a navigator like the GPS175. For commercial you would need an auto pilot, so a 2-servo GFC500. You could probably do this for under $40,000, but not much under.

Is auto pilot a ‘requirement’ for a Commercial Pilot Certificate?

 

[Mikey52]

Only if you use the advanced cockpit option.

 

[schmookeeg]

I see a KX-170 there. Other than sterilizing you and your passengers, it should fly a perfectly acceptable set of approaches for your IR checkride. Comm is such a quick rating that you can rent whatever TAA you might prefer much more cheaply, the sundowner having gotten you through the hardest bit -- the XC requirements.

spend on avgas, mx and training, wait until later to rationalize expensive and rapidly-obsoleting panel toys. IMO.

 

[bonefishpete]

Only if you use the advanced cockpit option.

Why would you do that?
edit: OK you can get complex endorsement with TAA equipment. Or just get it in a complex aircraft. ???

 

[flyingcheesehead]

Hello fellow Aviatiors im in the process of acquiring a 1974 Beechcraft C23 Sundowner to finish out my PPL and other ratings and panel is as outdated as you can imagine but its in good shape. However the instruments are very much outdated. The good side of this is the engine has only 92 SMOH and compression numbers are strong and healthy. I need you help in recommending some budget friendly options that will accommodate IFR and Commercial ratings and will not obliterate the bank so to speak. Ive attached some pics for your review and looking forward to everyone responses.

When was the engine overhauled, calendar-wise? 92 SMOH is pretty meaningless if it was a decade ago, and the gunk on the windscreen makes it look like that plane has been sitting for quite a while.

Don't spend money upgrading an airplane that's been sitting until you know damn well that it's not going to eat your lunch in plain old maintenance costs. There is nothing more expensive than a cheap airplane.

Jesse gave you an excellent answer for a starting price of an upgrade that'll let you do the commercial in this plane. That's a lot of money too... You could skip the autopilot and just rent for the commercial and be money ahead.

If you're aiming for an airline career, you may want to consider a twin as your time-builder ratings machine instead - Get the commercial AMEL in the twin (which is almost certain to be complex) and then you can use whatever single you want for the add-on commercial ASEL, and you'll build lots of multi time which will let you "skip the line" ahead of the million CFIs who already have 1500 total time and insignificant multi. At some point after you have the commercial AMEL you could also buy a really cheap to operate single for the rest of your time.

Is auto pilot a ‘requirement’ for a Commercial Pilot Certificate?

No, but you are required to do it in either a complex airplane (which this isn't) or a "Technically Advanced Airplane" which requires autopilot, GPS, and a PFD.

 

[Papa Pilot]

What's are the requirements for the autopilot? Can't tell for sure but the pics indicate it's got a C1 autopilot. No GPSS but it may have tracking ability.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

What's are the requirements for the autopilot?

§ 61.129 Aeronautical experience.​

(j) Technically advanced airplane. Unless otherwise authorized by the Administrator, a technically advanced airplane must be equipped with an electronically advanced avionics system that includes the following installed components:​

(3) A two axis autopilot integrated with the navigation and heading guidance system​

Can't tell for sure but the pics indicate it's got a C1 autopilot. No GPSS but it may have tracking ability.

I didn't see anything, and I hadn't ever heard of a C1 autopilot, and when I Googled it I knew that what I found wasn't what you were referring to, and then I finally realized you probably meant Century 1. Good eye!

As a single axis autopilot, though, the Century 1 doesn't qualify for TAA.

 

[Arrow67]

Fig 4 is a straight-up typo, man, everyone runs into that. Flip the 10 and 5, seriously. Fig 3, LCL is just the cloud base-easy. Fig 1 yellow letters are airway names and the numbers are just altitudes. Fig 2 arrows are weather layers. Fig 5's words just label the altimeter and radio selection. Don't stress it

 

[moe007]

What's are the requirements for the autopilot? Can't tell for sure but the pics indicate it's got a C1 autopilot. No GPSS but it may have tracking ability.

It's definitely a Century 1 single-axis autopilot with an old Apollo/Garmin GPS unit that cannot be updated any longer.

 

[moe007]

Here is the quote I got for the Avionics upgrade; I'd like to know what everyone thinks. Also, are any A&Ps available that would be willing to help me install it at a severely anemic rate?

GMA 345 AUDIO PANEL
GNX 375 GPS/TXP KIT w/GA35S - OTC - AMERICAS
GNC 215 NAV/COMM (fixed wing)
GTR 205 VHF COMM (fixed wing)
G5 KIT CERTIFIED AIRCRAFT - HSI w/GMU11, GAD 29
G5 KIT CERTIFIED AIRCRAFT
GAD 13 (OAT ADPT)
GAD 13 CONNECTOR KIT
DAVTRON C307PS OAT PROBE
GI 275 BASE (MFD/CDI) w/GEA 24 EIS
Kit, 4 Cyl,CHT/EGT,FF,Oil P,Oil T,MP,Fuel Pump,GPT
FUEL PRESSURE SENSOR (15 PSI - CARB)
CARB TEMP (Type K Temp Probe,UMA,T3B10-SG)

Prepackaged Cabling
GNX Kit Harness 1
*include future GFC 500 connection point.
*has existing Century I auto pilot
GEA 24 EIS Sensor Harness (4 cyl) Lycoming O-360 A4J

 

[flyingcheesehead]

Here is the quote I got for the Avionics upgrade; I'd like to know what everyone thinks. Also, are any A&Ps available that would be willing to help me install it at a severely anemic rate?

GMA 345 AUDIO PANEL
GNX 375 GPS/TXP KIT w/GA35S - OTC - AMERICAS
GNC 215 NAV/COMM (fixed wing)
GTR 205 VHF COMM (fixed wing)
G5 KIT CERTIFIED AIRCRAFT - HSI w/GMU11, GAD 29
G5 KIT CERTIFIED AIRCRAFT
GAD 13 (OAT ADPT)
GAD 13 CONNECTOR KIT
DAVTRON C307PS OAT PROBE
GI 275 BASE (MFD/CDI) w/GEA 24 EIS
Kit, 4 Cyl,CHT/EGT,FF,Oil P,Oil T,MP,Fuel Pump,GPT
FUEL PRESSURE SENSOR (15 PSI - CARB)
CARB TEMP (Type K Temp Probe,UMA,T3B10-SG)

Prepackaged Cabling
GNX Kit Harness 1
*include future GFC 500 connection point.
*has existing Century I auto pilot
GEA 24 EIS Sensor Harness (4 cyl) Lycoming O-360 A4J

It seems to be missing the all-important number?

 

[moe007]

It seems to be missing the all-important number?

All for the low price of 36K with wiring harnesses pre-made and ready to plug in they said.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

All for the low price of 36K with wiring harnesses pre-made and ready to plug in they said.

That looks like a pretty good deal for all that! That number includes both equipment and installation, right?

 

[moe007]

That looks like a pretty good deal for all that! That number includes both equipment and installation, right?

That would be for Hardware only. Installation not included unfortunately. However since all wiring harnesses are rebuilt and labeled that Installation can be done by an A&P.

 

[AvNavCom]

Also, are any A&Ps available that would be willing to help me install it at a severely anemic rate?

If we want to attract and keep A&Ps in the recreational GA space, we need to stop asking questions like this. Mechanics need to paid a fair rate for a reasonable number of installation hours. If we can't afford that, we can't afford the upgrade.

Other than that, looks like a great upgrade package. I'd personally spring for GI 275s over the G-5s (for aesthetic as well as practical reasons) but you'll absolutely love that EIS.

 

[moe007]

If we want to attract and keep A&Ps in the recreational GA space, we need to stop asking questions like this. Mechanics need to paid a fair rate for a reasonable number of installation hours. If we can't afford that, we can't afford the upgrade.

Other than that, it looks like a great upgrade package. I'd personally spring for GI 275s over the G-5s (for aesthetic as well as practical reasons), but you'll absolutely love that EIS.

I completely agree with you; however, as a beginner in this beautiful GA space, a helping hand would be very much welcomed and appreciated. And yes, I would agree that the G275s have some functionality that is better suited to integrate with older technologies like the Century 1 AP, which the G5s are unable to do. So will reach out, and hopefully the price difference won't cause me to gasp uncontrollably.

 

[mscheuer]

Hope you don't mind me chiming in. For a system that includes and audio panel, Bluetooth, 3D audio for radios, and a remote mounted Trig TY91L, you absolutely can't beat the price/peformance.
It would be perfect for your Sundowner.
If there are any folks on this thread that is currently using the PAR200B, I would greatly appreciate a PIREP.
PAR200B
Thank you!
Mark

 

[flyingcheesehead]

That would be for Hardware only. Installation not included unfortunately. However since all wiring harnesses are rebuilt and labeled that Installation can be done by an A&P.

Ah. Well, my rule of thumb is about 1.6x the hardware cost for installed cost, so figure another $20K to put it in, which makes it sound like a more normal deal.

I would also caution you that as much as this is going to cost you, you don't want to cheap out. An avionics shop does wiring all day every day and they're very good at it. A&Ps tend to be more mechanical than electrical, and do very little wiring, especially of avionics. This may well turn out to be a false economy.

 

[WDD]

To get it IFR ready, get a GNC 355 to give you a Com 1 and GPS navigaiton, a PAR 200B to give you an audio panel and Com 2, and a Straus or Garmin 345 transponder to give you ADSB Out / In.

Or a Garmin GNX 375 for Navigation and Transponder, plus some sort of Garmin Nav/Com radio, and the PAR 200 B for audio panel and Com 2.

You can add to this later (it's scalable). You can even add an auto pilot for your commercial.

But - how long will you own this plane after commercial? If you're just owning until you get to your CFI to build hours to get to your airline job, I suggest skip buying the plane. Just rent to get your ratings, and then the flight school you teach at will provide the plane.

 

[moe007]

To get it IFR ready, get a GNC 355 to give you a Com 1 and GPS navigaiton, a PAR 200B to give you an audio panel and Com 2, and a Straus or Garmin 345 transponder to give you ADSB Out / In.

Or a Garmin GNX 375 for Navigation and Transponder, plus some sort of Garmin Nav/Com radio, and the PAR 200 B for audio panel and Com 2.

You can add to this later (it's scalable). You can even add an auto pilot for your commercial.

But - how long will you own this plane after commercial? If you're just owning until you get to your CFI to build hours to get to your airline job, I suggest skip buying the plane. Just rent to get your ratings, and then the flight school you teach at will provide the plane.

I seem to have missed the Garmin GMA 345 Audio Panel with buetooth in my list. But the PAR 200B is also a very sexy piece of equipment in my opinion. And I plan on keeping the plane and having it available to those that will want to learn and build up their time as well. And not currently interested in the CFI route as I cannot teach people. I know my limitations lol. The plane has a century 1 auto pilot now so that will have to do for the time being. Would love to add a GFC 500 Autopilot but that's a very expensive nut to crack at the moment

 

[WDD]

I seem to have missed the Garmin GMA 345 Audio Panel with buetooth in my list. But the PAR 200B is also a very sexy piece of equipment in my opinion. And I plan on keeping the plane and having it available to those that will want to learn and build up their time as well. And not currently interested in the CFI route as I cannot teach people. I know my limitations lol. The plane has a century 1 auto pilot now so that will have to do for the time being. Would love to add a GFC 500 Autopilot but that's a very expensive nut to crack at the moment

If one needs both an audio panel and a com, and need a great, easy to use and reliable Blue Tooth, and doesn't want the extra audio panel features that an uber audio panel might offer, then the PAR 200 B is a good choice.

What GPS navigator do you have BTW? What is the current Com 2 in addition to the KX?

As far as your wish list in post 12, hold off for now. Get the bare basics, fly it for a while, and then you'll know much better what you want and how you want the panel to look.

And..... if you do buy the plane, you're going to be spending money fixing things, some surprises. It's just going to happen, plan on it. So you'll want prioritize your money on the plane being fixed and safe vs a full new avionics panel.

 

[moe007]

If one needs both an audio panel and a com, and need a great, easy to use and reliable Blue Tooth, and doesn't want the extra audio panel features that an uber audio panel might offer, then the PAR 200 B is a good choice.

What GPS navigator do you have BTW? What is the current Com 2 in addition to the KX?

As far as your wish list in post 12, hold off for now. Get the bare basics, fly it for a while, and then you'll know much better what you want and how you want the panel to look.

And..... if you do buy the plane, you're going to be spending money fixing things, some surprises. It's just going to happen, plan on it. So you'll want prioritize your money on the plane being fixed and safe vs a full new avionics panel.

That is very wise advice you've just provided @WDD Thank you!! The current GPS is an old Apollo that no longer can be updated unfortunately and current audio panel works for now and has a Narco AT60 Transponder with adsb out. I'm currently training in a piper Archer with G1000 nxi with electric trim. So would love to have at lease 2 G5's to keep that feel in the new plane. But I will take your advice and keep it to bare minimum until I've worked out the kinks that will certainly come up.

 

[bonefishpete]

$56K in a old Sundowner? You’ll never get your money back. Get your ppl in as is and then decide. Sell plane and buy one already Garmin equipped. What’s an AP another $20K?

 

[WDD]

$56K in a old Sundowner? You’ll never get your money back. Get your ppl in as is and then decide. Sell plane and buy one already Garmin equipped. What’s an AP another $20K?

Yeah, IMHO always a good idea to get PPL first and then figure out what plane / mission you really want. I have a feeling the OP might have already pulled the trigger on it though. OP, updates?

All in all though, a lot of people like the Sundowner. And good idea to forget about getting money back from buying a plane - makes it easier that way LOL. But seriously, that's another reason to start with panel bare minimums (ADSB In/Out, basic coms, some sort of navigator). You can always add things later if you want.

 

[moe007]

$56K in a old Sundowner? You’ll never get your money back. Get your ppl in as is and then decide. Sell plane and buy one already Garmin equipped. What’s an AP another $20K?

GFC 500 will run about 19K with installation. So you were offe by 1K which could be used for fuel

 

[moe007]

Yeah, IMHO always a good idea to get PPL first and then figure out what plane / mission you really want. I have a feeling the OP might have already pulled the trigger on it though. OP, updates?

All in all though, a lot of people like the Sundowner. And good idea to forget about getting money back from buying a plane - makes it easier that way LOL. But seriously, that's another reason to start with panel bare minimums (ADSB In/Out, basic coms, some sort of navigator). You can always add things later if you want.

LOL its as if you are in my head @WDD. But seriously I havent pulled the trigger yet. I should be closing soon hopefully by next week. But yeah you are absolutely correct and will hold off on making major purchases till after I get my PPL and then we can plan on going to the Bahamas to celebrate!

 

[flyingcheesehead]

That is very wise advice you've just provided @WDD Thank you!! The current GPS is an old Apollo that no longer can be updated unfortunately and current audio panel works for now and has a Narco AT60 Transponder with adsb out.

Huh? There is no Narco transponder with ADS-B Out. Narco was pretty much out of business before ADS-B was a thing. Keep that in mind too, if that transponder goes, you'll need to either find another one that works, or you'll be forced into an upgrade.

Yeah, old farts, I know, technically they were still in business, but they hadn't released any new products in forever and definitely never made anything that did ADS-B. They never even made a GPS. It was kind of funny/sad to see them still coming to Oshkosh in the mid-2000s with everyone else showing off color GPS and they're still showing their old plasma display nav/coms.

I'm currently training in a piper Archer with G1000 nxi with electric trim. So would love to have at lease 2 G5's to keep that feel in the new plane. But I will take your advice and keep it to bare minimum until I've worked out the kinks that will certainly come up.

Yeah, that's gonna be a little different going back to steam gauges after training with G1000! It's gonna feel like "Cleared for takeoff... Aaaaand, I'm lost."