update on attempted trip from SD to CA

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chevy72402

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Chevy72402
So, an update on our adventure from SD to southern California.. We didn't make it.

Landed in Vernal, UT and had the worst feeling in my gut (could've been close to hypoxia as we were running at 12,500' but we had an o2 meter and were constantly checking ourselves, (my wife and I)(every once in a while I get the feeling that something bad is going to happen and it usually does) On take off DA was around 8000' and the plane rolled out like the brakes were on, performance was garbage and I was fully fueled with near maximum payload on. We headed for the second stretch of mountains and there were clouds at the top of the range. I called it at that point and turned back for the storm dodging trip back home (weather had come in behind us and had closed up my direct flight back. Thank God for the stratus II as we were dodging storms for the next 4 hours of flight, mind you this is in a 210 with a tailwind operating @190+ knots GS with tailwind)

After a weeks reflection on this trip I see 1 big mistake I made and that was poor mountain dodging planning. I should've went further to the north or further south. Mark it up to inexperience and a lesson learned. I've figured out that at this point in my education I prefer flat land flying and want to gain more experience before trying mountain flying again. Bonus: 8 hours of flight time although 4 kids in a plane for that long is trying to say the least.
 
Was your original plan to depart near gross weight at 8k DA?

Would staying overnight and departing in the morning been a better option?
 
I am planning on doing a western trip this summer. Is your 210 turbo. Do you have oxygen on board. What made you choose your route. Any more insights would be great.
 
Nice plane for a trip. You have to be prepared for high density flying,some times it's better to stay overnight and make an early departure at sun rise,a valuable lesson learned.
 
chevy72402 said:
I should've went further to the north or further south.
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I live ~ 90nm southeast of Vernal. We had intermittent strong gusty winds and intermittent rain for the last several days. I'm not sure what the weather was like north of Vernal but it was not good a short distance south. It seems to me that you made the right decision.
 
Something is not right and it suggests an elementary high altitude error. Like, never use full rich in a naturally aspirated engine, and climb no faster than Vy for the altitude. It is likely to be 5-10 knots slower than at sea level. See the POH; it's common to see 10,000 foot values and you can interpolate.

It's a good idea to leave some margin below max gross, even if it means an extra fuel stop. Flying early can get the DA down, but 8000 isn't that high unless there is sinking air around.

If I can get 500 FPM out of a Warrior at that kind of DA, you should be able to do as good or better in a 210.
 
MAKG
, I did lean it for altitude. Maybe not enough but once I was airborne and climb performance wasn't what I expected, I enriched the mixture and then leaned again to find the best performance.

Cliff,
It is a 1978 T210, we didn't have oxygen on this trip but I plan on buying cannulas and having the oxygen bottles filled. Where out west would you be flying? Biggest thing I could suggest is to know what direction the wind is out of at the altitude you plan to fly and prepare to make adjustments on the fly (assuming you are VFR) for turbulence. This trip wasn't bad at all for turbulence but the trip I made with my CFII was pretty tough but nothing a change of altitude didn't fix.

Fearless Tower,
I had planned on being near gross for takeoff and I probably should have stayed overnight and departed when it had cooled down a bit as it was around 75-80 at 1430 MDT. Watching the clouds and storms (that were not forecast) come in all around us I didn't want to be caught in Vernal for the next 3 days. (Although Vernal is a nice town and I wouldn't mind spending more time there, another time)
 
What did you expect for climb performance? How about runway length required for takeoff and takeoff over a 50' obstacle? Did you have a go/stop point chosen on the runway, for an abort?

High DA isn't anything to mess with. The engine is often producing 40% less power than at sea level, and the air molecules aren't hitting the wing quite as often.

You really need to do it like the pros and have all the numbers written down prior to pushing the throttle up, if you didn't. It's all right there in the POH. Lesson learned.

Most 210s at gross at high DA, will chew up incredible amounts of runway and climb slowly but consistently.

Mountain obscuration is a very good reason to turn around. No point in playing in white fuzzy rocks.
 
I wish I hadn't missed the first post of this... But i was asleep at the wheel, I guess!

I'm originally from KRAP, but now live in the Phoenix area. As such I fly my Skylane RG to and from KRAP a couple times a year. I've found that going through Grand Junction, CO is a good route, as is going through abq depending on the winds in the mountains... I do abq if the rockies aren't a good option. Fully loaded getting out of either airport feels a lot different than you're used to, especially you coming from a nearly sea level, cool environment. Some more experience with higher density altitude would do you well. Mountain flying is a whole different animal.
 
chevy72402 said:
MAKG
, I did lean it for altitude. Maybe not enough but once I was airborne and climb performance wasn't what I expected, I enriched the mixture and then leaned again to find the best performance.

Cliff,
It is a 1978 T210, we didn't have oxygen on this trip but I plan on buying cannulas and having the oxygen bottles filled. Where out west would you be flying? Biggest thing I could suggest is to know what direction the wind is out of at the altitude you plan to fly and prepare to make adjustments on the fly (assuming you are VFR) for turbulence. This trip wasn't bad at all for turbulence but the trip I made with my CFII was pretty tough but nothing a change of altitude didn't fix.
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T210 - is that a turbo-normalized or -boosted engine? I'm assuming the T indicates turbocharged...if so, let's talk about engine operation for high density altitude airports.
 
Throttle,
T stands for Turbocharged, which this airplane has a TSIO which is turbocharged, supercharged, fuel injected, opposed ( If I have learned all this correctly)

MIR,
I'll check that route out sometime. What is your highest obstacle on that route and what altitude do you normally fly at?

Denver Pilot,
They had the 16/34 shut down for repairs to a water line (it is 6201') and we landed and took off on 25 which was 4108'. 2000' makes a huge difference and I had chosen a stop/go point. Over 50' obstacle on the T210 is 2030' which is half of runway 25 length. So it felt like forever, compared to what I am used to.
 
Rule of thumb for high altitude is at least 10% below max gross for weight, even with a turbo. As Clark pointed out, fewer air molecules hittingnthe wings even if the engine thinks its at sea level.
SD - South Dakota? If so, that's not exactly sea level.
 
chevy72402 said:
Denver Pilot,

They had the 16/34 shut down for repairs to a water line (it is 6201') and we landed and took off on 25 which was 4108'. 2000' makes a huge difference and I had chosen a stop/go point. Over 50' obstacle on the T210 is 2030' which is half of runway 25 length. So it felt like forever, compared to what I am used to.
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Ah good. I'm glad you had run the numbers. So many don't and end up in so much trouble.

It definitely feels weird to eat up runway at a good clip and see the airspeed needle still working its way up there to something useful.

Since I've always flown here most of my life, I have the opposite weird feeling... When the 182 pops off the ground in 500' near sea level, I wonder if I should push forward because surely a gust must have launched me. Heh heh.

If you knew the numbers and where you needed to abort and it just felt funny, you're doing fine.
 
chevy72402 said:
Throttle,
T stands for Turbocharged, which this airplane has a TSIO which is turbocharged, supercharged, fuel injected, opposed ( If I have learned all this correctly)
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Yup, you got the nomenclature correct.

Just so we are clear on the leaning for best power thing, the proper mixture for full power operation of a TSIO engine is full rich. Any other mixture setting during full power operation can cause detonation which can rapidly destroy an engine. So mixture and prop are full forward for every departure and fuel flow is visually verified once manifold pressure is set.

The fuel flow should be pretty darn close to book value for full power - if it is not discuss it with a mechanic to get the fuel system setup correctly. Fuel trim should be checked by a mechanic at each annual inspection but sometimes it gets skipped.

Of course the engine should be leaned for ground operation. There should be a small (25 rpm or so) increase in engine speed as it is leaned. If there isn't a small rpm increase when leaning at an idle then discuss it with a mechanic and get the fuel system set up correctly.

Once airborne and above 500 to 1,000' power can be reduced for climb. Some folks leave it full rich for the climb since the excess fuel helps cool the cylinders. If heating is not a problem then the engine can be leaned during the climb to maintain constant EGTs. Monitor CHTs and don't let them get above 400 - either enrichen the mixture or make a shallower climb.

In cruise the engine can be run at best power (~100 to 125 degrees rich of peak), peak, or lean-of-peak. Peak here is the maximum EGT observed at the turbocharger inlet (TIT) as the mixture is reduced. Both Lycoming and Continental note that the engine can't be hurt with the mixture setting once power is below 65% so the best way to learn about your engine is to reduce power to about 65% with rpm and manifold pressure setting and then slowly lean the mixture while observing the EGT. A full engine monitor is helpful but TIT will suffice.

Once you learn the fuel flows and associated temperatures at 65% power, set up rpm and manifold pressure for 75% power and find the fuel flow for peak and best power. Remember to write all the flows and TITs down so you know what engine performance to expect. Keep track of TAS also since that is an indication of actual engine output.

So now you've got a bit of an engine setting map (or table) for 65% and 75% power that you can use to chose your typical day-to-day cruise setup and you'll know what aircraft performance to expect.

For my turbo Dakota, I typically use 30" and 2400 rpm with 10 gph (which is peak) or leaner on fuel flow. I know that it'll make about 130 kts so if I'm faster or slower something is wrong and I best be figuring it out. Of course the T210 is a heck of a lot faster but you should know your numbers and keep an eye on performance.

I haven't mentioned much about TIT other than finding peak value. Be sure to comply with max allowable TIT and keep in mind that some folks recommend staying 100 degrees under max allowable for normal operation. While cooler is generally better I don't have strong evidence that 100 degrees cooler is somehow majic in terms of extending turbo life. Personally, I think leaner is better for turbo life but I only have anecdotal "evidence" for that.

I'm sure other folks can add to the info presented here. Ted D. used to destroy Lycoming engines for a living so he has valuable info to share. Some of his postings are "stickied" here on POA. Online resources include some articles under the general title of "Pelican's Perch" which are worth searching out. Also dig up info from GAMI - maybe not swallow all their kool-aide but they have done a lot of work with mixture and unlike the engine manufacturers they actually share the info.
 
Clark1961 said:
Yup, you got the nomenclature correct.

Just so we are clear on the leaning for best power thing, the proper mixture for full power operation of a TSIO engine is full rich.
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Thank you!!!!!

How can a T210 owner not know this?:nono:
 
, I did lean it for altitude. Maybe not enough but once I was airborne and climb performance wasn't what I expected, I enriched the mixture and then leaned again to find the best performance.
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Did you receive any training in this airplane?
 
Skywag,
I did receive training in this airplane and had been into this very airport with my CFII within the last 45 days. I do want more instruction in it and feel as I can always learn more from other pilots and instructors on this 210. I've been looking for someone in my area that knows these birds and it is very hard to find.

Throttle,
When in climb, off of this runway, I did push all 3 forward and it started to stumble. Maybe during annual it wasn't set up right as you suggest? I found that leaning it slightly smoothed the engine out and a better climb was established. After I have climb established I start to tune in the MP, Fuel flow and RPM. I have over 25 hours in this plane now and am constantly learning about this plane.

I don't claim to know it all, and am eating up all info I have read on this plane and am looking forward to becoming a more refined pilot. I realize that this all takes time and someone else critiquing my methods as I want to be a safe pilot and not a bold pilot.
 
Clark1961 said:
Yup, you got the nomenclature correct.

Just so we are clear on the leaning for best power thing, the proper mixture for full power operation of a TSIO engine is full rich. Any other mixture setting during full power operation can cause detonation which can rapidly destroy an engine. So mixture and prop are full forward for every departure and fuel flow is visually verified once manifold pressure is set.
Click to expand...

But be aware that some other turbocharged engines permit some leaning at high density altitudes. Not all, some. And turbonormalized engines different yet again. And some will be derated (MP limited) at high altitude.

Know the book, and know your numbers for your particular engine and airframe.

I've had my turbocharged Commander all over the west. Takeoff will chew up a lot more runway than you're used to, and it will seem much slower to climb than in the lowlands. Short-field takeoff procedure is your friend. Sometimes it'll take a circling climb (my last trip out of Henderson, NV found me doing that on a very hot day). Staying 10% below your max weight will make a huge difference, too. O2 is also your friend.

Good decision to turn back when it was apparent that things were not right for you.
 
kgruber said:
Thank you!!!!!

How can a T210 owner not know this?:nono:
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In my experience, engine operation training is all over the place. Lots of old wives tales and lots of good info. It can be difficult to sort out.
 
chevy72402 said:
Throttle,
When in climb, off of this runway, I did push all 3 forward and it started to stumble. Maybe during annual it wasn't set up right as you suggest? I found that leaning it slightly smoothed the engine out and a better climb was established. After I have climb established I start to tune in the MP, Fuel flow and RPM. I have over 25 hours in this plane now and am constantly learning about this plane.
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I don't know all the details of the particular engine in your plane but you can bet that someone on POA does. Would you post the full model number? It should be something like TSIO-5X0-XX. Also what was the manifold pressure when it stumbled and what manifold pressure, rpm, and fuel flow did you set for climb?

If it stumbled coming off idle, was the throttle movement slow and steady or a rapid (1 second or so) advance?
 
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wsuffa said:
But be aware that some other turbocharged engines permit some leaning at high density altitudes. Not all, some. And turbonormalized engines different yet again. And some will be derated (MP limited) at high altitude.
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Bill, you're noting critical altitude limits? Good point and helpful to the OP to bring in since I certainly failed to mention critical alttitude.

OTOH, as a general rule if the engine is near max maifold pressure then it better be very near max fuel flow. I know I'm being a bit pendantic here but at max manifold pressure the engine is actually working harder (putting out more power) at high density altitudes since the total compression across the entire engine is higher as a result of the lower ambient air pressure that the exhaust "sees".
 
Clark1961 said:
Bill, you're noting critical altitude limits? Good point and helpful to the OP to bring in since I certainly failed to mention critical alttitude.

OTOH, as a general rule if the engine is near max maifold pressure then it better be very near max fuel flow. I know I'm being a bit pendantic here but at max manifold pressure the engine is actually working harder (putting out more power) at high density altitudes since the total compression across the entire engine is higher as a result of the lower ambient air pressure that the exhaust "sees".
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My plane has a placarded (AFM) limit of 42 in to 8000 ft, 40 in from 8-16,000, and 38 in above 16,000. TO-360 engine.

Full Rich is the spec, but the Lycoming engine manual notes that "during takeoff from high elevation airport or during climb roughness or loss of power may result from over-richness. In such a case, adjust mixture control ONLY enough to obtain smooth operation - not for economy. Observe instruments for temperature rise". Full rich is required over 75% power, and I think there's only one time I've ever needed to touch the mixture lever on takeoff (promptly pushed it back after we got established in climb).

In practice, the temperatures limit the length of time at full power at high altitude, and an engine monitor is essential for this kind of engine.
 
wsuffa said:
My plane has a placarded (AFM) limit of 42 in to 8000 ft, 40 in from 8-16,000, and 38 in above 16,000. TO-360 engine.

Full Rich is the spec, but the Lycoming engine manual notes that "during takeoff from high elevation airport or during climb roughness or loss of power may result from over-richness. In such a case, adjust mixture control ONLY enough to obtain smooth operation - not for economy. Observe instruments for temperature rise". Full rich is required over 75% power, and I think there's only one time I've ever needed to touch the mixture lever on takeoff (promptly pushed it back after we got established in climb).

In practice, the temperatures limit the length of time at full power at high altitude, and an engine monitor is essential for this kind of engine.
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Looks like Lycoming is limiting max power with altitude. I think Piper/Continental did that with the Seneca, at least on later models. I've seen one power setting table for it which adjusted MAP with altitude but that was a cruise power setting table.
 
Chevy, ya did good. You made the PIC decision and turned back.

Now, you will get beat up by some of the crowd on here. Let it roll off your back.
About my best advice to you would be to go take a mountain flying course in the very near future.
Someone who does this type of instruction specifically - as opposed to your local CFI who is probably a good guy but not a mountain expert - even if it is not in your plane

denny-o
74 Chevelle SS 454
 
Clark1961 said:
Looks like Lycoming is limiting max power with altitude. I think Piper/Continental did that with the Seneca, at least on later models. I've seen one power setting table for it which adjusted MAP with altitude but that was a cruise power setting table.
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It's "power" in this case, regardless of TO or cruise. And the engine is a 4 cylinder Lyc, but similar to the Continentals on the Seneca. Same difference and same net effect.
 
Denny,
Our next planned trip will be to the UP at the beginning of June. Looking forward to more flatland flying. My inlaws live over near Perry, MI and that is one of the main reasons I got my ticket and this plane. 4 hours of flying vs 14 - 16 hours of driving is a no brainer for me, especially with 4 kids. We'll either fly into Livingston county or into Owosso (KRNP) I did a little training with a CFII when I was there over thanksgiving and after the new year.
 
Didn't read all responses, so maybe I'm off base here... But, wouldn't you have planned for high DA at max weight before you even left home??
Waiting until departure from a fuel stop seems a bit late IMO.
 
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