Unsure of path to take.

N

Nomex

Guest
I’m not sure whether this should have went in Lessons Learned or here, but I’m deciding to put it here because I it is medical in nature, and it’s actually quite on odd situation. I’m going to apologize in advance for the length of the post, but like I stated it is an odd situation, and I’m not sure where to go from here with it.

(Deep breath)

When I was a teenager, my hand-eye coordination was abysmal. It didn’t matter what it was, I was completely horrible at it. If I was throwing a ball, I might have been able to hit the broad side of a barn, if I was standing within an arm’s length of the barn. Trying to catch a baseball was an adventure in which part of my face or body would end up bloody or bruised. I couldn’t skateboard, or roller skate, and even shooting baskets with my older brother I was lucky if I could make a single shot out of twenty. My parents originally chalked up my awkwardness and inability to growth spurts, but as I was done growing, it didn’t get any better. But as I got to the point where driver’s education was on the agenda it really came to light on how pervasive my ‘condition’ was. I couldn’t even drive a car.

I would hit the curb, parking involved hitting at least one car if I didn’t have at least three empty spaces for me to put the car in, and I had tremendous difficulty keeping the car in my own lane. Finally, near the end of the first week, the instructor stopped the vehicle, and had me ride in the back seat back to the training center, and told me to quit. So besides never getting to play for the Lakers, Yankees, or Dolphins, I wouldn’t even be able to ever drive my own vehicle.

Fast forward a few years and things started to change. My older brother, now a police officer, and a few of his buddies took me out for my 21st birthday. Before that I had never touched cigarettes, alcohol, or drugs of any sort. I suppose that was one advantage to being a complete disaster as a teenager – I wasn’t burdened with any peer pressure to trying anything in that vein. But on my 21st we started to notice a few things. We were at the bar, and as I got a few drinks into me, the coordination issues started to go away. The walls near the dartboard were actually safe, and after a few rounds (darts not drinks) I was near the center with every throw. The next day my brother and I went out again, and we figured that the previous night was just one of those situations where once you’ve done something correctly, your body will know what to do when you try it again. Not even close. I was back to the uncoordinated me. I didn’t come close to hitting the dart board. So I was a bit dejected about the ordeal. But my brother decided to experiment on me.

The next weekend we went out to the driving course they had set up for officers training, and he and I got into one of the cars and he had me attempt to drive completely sober. It was a disaster just like it had been years prior. I knocked over cones, was off in the grass, jerky with the wheel, etc… He has us stop, we get out of the car and he pours me a couple healthy shots of bourbon. We wait about twenty to thirty minutes, he puts me on the breathalyzer, takes the reading and we go out on the course again. Sure enough, just like the darts, after I got a feel for the car I was able to navigate the course without an issue. Over the next couple months we would go out and practice with various BAC levels, and we determined that if I was I in the 0.06-0.18 range I was in my sweet spot. Above 0.18 and I started showing impairment. Below 0.06, and I started driving as badly as if I were stone sober. This became sort of spectacle and quite entertaining to the rest of the officers, and even superiors, and there started to be a competition of Who Can Drive Better Than The ‘Drunk’ Guy after I had my name atop the unofficial leader board at one point.


After talking with his boss, a couple of local magistrates, and being put under very strict guidelines I was issued a probationary drivers license. This went on for a few years, and after not having any issues, I got a zero restriction drivers license. I don’t drink every day, as I work from home most of the time. I have a breathalyzer that gets calibrated every month, and when I need to drive somewhere, I take a couple shots, wait about half an hour, test my BAC to see where I am at, and if I am in the 0.6 to 0.18 range I drive where I need to. In the twenty plus years I’ve had my license I have never been arrested for DUI, or any alcohol/drug related infraction.

What does this have to do with flying? Well, I had always wanted to fly, and after about five years of driving, I decided I wanted to get my pilots license. I never told any of my instructors about my ‘situation’ and there were days when I attempted flying sober. Those were the days when my instructors wondered if I had ever been in a plane before. But just like with my driving, if I am in the sweet spot, I fly near perfect. I got my private license and instrument license, taking both check rides while technically under the influence, (even though I was sober for the written and oral portion) but as 20 plus years have shown I perform worse when not under it. This was reinforced when I took my commercial ride, and decided that since I was going to be a ‘professional’ I should really do it ‘right.’ I failed miserably. I wasn’t nervous, I wasn’t thinking I need a drink to fly, I simply messed up every maneuver, and got a pink slip. I feigned being sick and had the examiner land the plane. I came back two weeks later, this time ‘prepared’ and nailed everything to better than commercial standards.

Now I know some of you will say I am an alcoholic, but I often go weeks without a drink, and don’t experience any withdrawal, or need for it. Honestly, I don’t even like the taste that much. I only drink if I ‘need’ to play sports with my kids, drive, or fly. A few of you on this board have even flown with me, and I got instruction from one of you, and had commented on how precise I was in handling the plane. And yes, I definitely had a couple in me when we were up, if I hadn’t had a couple, you would have never gotten in the plane with me again. I have gone up with numerous instructors while out of town on business while sober under the premise that I haven’t flown in thirty years, and am thinking of getting back into it, but their reactions post flight were of that where they didn’t say I shouldn’t be in an airplane, but that’s really the feeling I got from them.

But now I’ve gotten to the point where people only look at things in terms of black and white, and I don’t want to leave them destitute because a collection of bureaucrats, doctors, and lawyers need everyone to fit into a neat little box. I agree that most people (everyone) functions worse when under the influence at a certain BAC level, and that the laws are there for a reason. But not everyone responds exactly the same way to every stimulus. I haven’t come across anyone else in a similar situation, and I want to see a doctor about this, and see if there is some sort of condition that I have, which causes a near complete dysfunction with (broad?) motor skills, and an improvement while under the influence, while fine motor skills are unaffected regardless, but I know that in doing so, I will have to walk away from flying for the rest of my life. Is there any sort of way someone can get a waiver, or take a SODA, or something where it’s not just a knee jerk reaction of “oh alcohol affects everyone in the same exact way, and there is absolutely no possibility for any exceptions.”

Again, I’m not dependent on it, and it’s not a withdrawal reaction. I had bad motor skills before I ever ingested my first drop of alcohol, and by accident I found out that alcohol to a certain point improves my motor function, and through over 20 years of experimenting I’ve found where I need to be to function normally in the motors skills area. Is there any way I can go forward?
 
When I was in college, I knew someone with a similar problem. In his case, the underlying medical problem was a form of dyslexia. He kept it under control with a medication (I forget which one, but it was a mild sedative); but if he forgot his pills, he'd take a shot or two of whiskey. It seemed to do the trick as far as I could tell.

What reminded me of him was your mention of darts. This guy was more likely to hit himself than the dartboard when he was sober and unmedicated, but he did okay with either the medication or a few shots of bourbon in him.

As for how to get evaluated while remaining a pilot, I have no idea. Frankly, I doubt FAA would look kindly on either the condition or the treatment.

Rich
 
8 hours between your last drink and acting as PIC. Your system is not going to cut it with the FAA...

Perhaps rather than self medicating, you should look into determining the underlying cause and finding an appropriate treatment.

But, likely, whatever that is, it may not cut it with the FAA either. Sorry.
 
I think your options are keep doing what you are doing or quit flying. No way they issue a SODA to fly 'drunk.' Even if there is a prescription equivalent to alcohol the FAA does not trust pilots to be at the proper level of medication at all times. That is why the bipolar/depression types are uncertifiable, they maybe OK on meds but the gov doesn't trust them to take their meds or not fly without them.
 
You have three, and only three options:

  • Give up flying
  • Stop drinking
  • Wait for the day when you're caught and the FAA takes all your certificates.
Your choice.
 
I heard people before saying they drive better when a little drunk. Maybe it was true after all!

What surprises me is that you could function at 0.18 BAC back in the beginning. Without some serious tolerance, I think most people would be pretty wasted by that point. At 0.06 I can see it (and it's actually kind of legal for driving in most places in the US).
 
Interesting metabolic/brain chemistry issue, good luck and thanks for relaying your story. Whether you'll be able to work something out with the FAA is pretty doubtful especially in today's climate of everybody has to fit the cookie cutter mould bureaucracy dictates, but you never know. A person who may be interested just from an intellectual curiosity standpoint is Dr Bruce Chien (although he may also curse me for giving you his name ;) I think he's curious enough to want to learn what he can from your condition and is a really good guy, Aeromedicaldoc.com, the AOPA forums, or Facebook is where he can be contacted), and he would be in a position to help if it is possible. Worth a shot, and again, good luck.

BTW, you can fly PT 103 Ultralights.
 
I can completely relate.

I have Asperger's syndrome, but being 60 years old, I've worked through most of the issues and you'd have a hard time knowing it unless you lived with me. That said, I have the poor coordination skills that are typical with Asperger's and it took forever to get my brain wired to my legs during training. Even though I've never broken any of the 3 alcohol rules, I am absolutely certain that my landings would improve with a couple of beers.
 
As others have said, I think your only choice to be legal about this would be:

- Stop flying as a required crew member for right now.
- Go to a neurologist and figure out what's going on and what prescription med might work for you the same way alcohol does.
- Once you're stable on that and your docs agree, fly as a sport pilot.
- On the off chance it can be done (unlikely), consult a super-AME and try for a medical.

Alternatively, maybe you're allowed to fly ultralights drunk?

The illegal option is to keep doing what you're doing, but expect the gates of hell to open as soon as the tiniest thing goes wrong. On the bright side, there's no reason to be paying for an insurance policy.
 
This whole thread reminds me of the WKRP episode where they keep testing Johnny Fever for reaction time as he's drinking and it keeps improving driving the officer insane.
 
Alternatively, maybe you're allowed to fly ultralights drunk?
I think not.
Sec. 103.9

Hazardous operations.

(a) No person may operate any ultralight vehicle in a manner that creates a hazard to other persons or property.
I don't think the FAA would have much trouble convincing an ALJ, the NTSB, or the US Court of Appeals that operating an ultralight air vehicle with a BAC of 0.18 would "create a hazard to other persons or property".
 
Oh, I'm certain I am.. And people under the influence of drugs. Doesn't make the OP any less selfish
 
Oh cheese and rice... Up until he kills someone.
You could kill someone flying sober. Where do we draw the line? If the standard is no risk for anyone else ever, then there is no private flying ever.
 
Seriously, am I the only person who's BS detector pegged after the 5th or 6th paragraph?

"After talking with his boss, a couple of local magistrates, and being put under very strict guidelines I was issued a probationary drivers license. This went on for a few years, and after not having any issues, I got a zero restriction drivers license."

Uh, rightttttt...
 
Greg assumes facts not in evidence. All we have is the OP's word for his ability to fly safely while legally intoxicated, and someone in that condition is hardly reliable as a judge of his own performance.
Granted. The whole thing might be a hoax and self reported pilot skills(from anyone, even the sober) is always suspect. I figure if we are to believe any of it might as well give the OP the benefit of the doubt and believe all of it. In which case his (granted self reported, though he claims to have flown with people from this board)performance under the influence is fine. Plenty of high functioning drug addled folks out there, just cause we are lightweights doesn't mean everyone else is.
 
First and foremost, not a MD. From and aviation perspective -- no, there is no way to move forward. In fact, if anything you're going to move backward and lose all your ratings, and may suffer financial penalties at some point. Afraid that is just the stark reality of the situation from a flying perspective.

Now, it sounds like you are suffering from one of the neurological issues related to Tardive Dyskenisia, Dystonia, Myoclonus family. They are similar, rare, and very hard to pin down. They're all related somewhat and some of them can be affected by alcohol ingestion. Unfortunately, any or all of these conditions would prolly be disqualifying, but again, not an MD, and not an AME either.
 
I really hate to be cynic #2, but I'm doubting this story, mostly due to this:
"Over the next couple months we would go out and practice with various BAC levels, and we determined that if I was I in the 0.06-0.18 range I was in my sweet spot. Above 0.18 and I started showing impairment. Below 0.06, and I started driving as badly as if I were stone sober. This became sort of spectacle and quite entertaining to the rest of the officers, and even superiors, and there started to be a competition of Who Can Drive Better Than The ‘Drunk’ Guy after I had my name atop the unofficial leader board at one point.

After talking with his boss, a couple of local magistrates, and being put under very strict guidelines I was issued a probationary drivers license. This went on for a few years, and after not having any issues, I got a zero restriction drivers license."

I have two doubts: First, a bunch of police officers, on an official training course, are encouraging a driver to determine how functional he can be over the legal limit for DUI/DWI (I think it is .08 to .1 in all states...)? It seems to me this would be a risky proposition should they get caught/exposed, etc. I'm personal friends with both muni POs and state troopers here, and know many of their work friends casually, and can't imagine any of them getting involved in something like that.

Secondly, "I talked to a couple of magistrates and got a provisional license"? Where was this? I know of no jurisdictions where magistrates determine driving privileges. And even IF a magistrate had the authority, they wouldn't issue to someone who would only exercise the rights while committing a crime.

I'm not saying that the core of the story isn't true. Maybe it is. But like Meryl "I have doubt".
 
I am pretty certain this is a troll, a very detailed and well-played one but a troll. Apart from the legal issues surrounding getting a driver's license with the OP's medical situation, my question is: how do you fly with a CFI, much less a DPE, without their knowing you've been drinking? I can tell when a co-worker has had one drink with lunch and I have a decent, but not exceptional, sense of smell. To not notice that the OP had been drinking enough to put him in the 0.06+ range, those guys would have to have had colds or allergies bad enough to be grounding, or else noses made of wood.
 
I really hate to be cynic #2, but I'm doubting this story, mostly due to this:
"Over the next couple months we would go out and practice with various BAC levels, and we determined that if I was I in the 0.06-0.18 range I was in my sweet spot. Above 0.18 and I started showing impairment. Below 0.06, and I started driving as badly as if I were stone sober. This became sort of spectacle and quite entertaining to the rest of the officers, and even superiors, and there started to be a competition of Who Can Drive Better Than The ‘Drunk’ Guy after I had my name atop the unofficial leader board at one point.

After talking with his boss, a couple of local magistrates, and being put under very strict guidelines I was issued a probationary drivers license. This went on for a few years, and after not having any issues, I got a zero restriction drivers license."

I have two doubts: First, a bunch of police officers, on an official training course, are encouraging a driver to determine how functional he can be over the legal limit for DUI/DWI (I think it is .08 to .1 in all states...)? It seems to me this would be a risky proposition should they get caught/exposed, etc. I'm personal friends with both muni POs and state troopers here, and know many of their work friends casually, and can't imagine any of them getting involved in something like that.

Secondly, "I talked to a couple of magistrates and got a provisional license"? Where was this? I know of no jurisdictions where magistrates determine driving privileges. And even IF a magistrate had the authority, they wouldn't issue to someone who would only exercise the rights while committing a crime.

I'm not saying that the core of the story isn't true. Maybe it is. But like Meryl "I have doubt".

I had my doubts at that point, too. I suppose it would make sense, however, if the OP had already had several fender-benders before even getting his driver's license (which is what he stated). That could have caused him to be disqualified from driving, which said disqualification could later be reversed by the DMV upon the approval of a judge.

I'm not 100 percent convinced that this isn't a hoax, either. But as I said earlier, I did have a friend in college who was in essentially the same situation. In his case, he said it was a form of dyslexia that affected the way his brain processed visual input. It was relieved by the pills he was prescribed or by alcohol. So I know that such a condition is in fact possible.

Whatever the case, I think the chances of FAA issuing a SI or SODA requiring a pilot to be slightly inebriated (at least according to BAC standards) when exercising his privileges are roughly zero.

If a neurologist can be found who doesn't mind keeping his or her mouth shut in exchange for payment in greenbacks, possibly some experimentation would reveal an acceptable (to FAA) medication that will ameliorate the hand-eye coordination issues. That would leave the underlying diagnosis as the remaining hurdle.

Other than that possibility, I fear that OP's prospects for legitimizing his medical situation are about as slim as slim gets. :(

Rich
 
Last edited:
I've known 2 similar people in my life, they could not function properly without a couple of shots in them, so I will give him the benefit of the doubt.
 
I've known 2 similar people in my life, they could not function properly without a couple of shots in them, so I will give him the benefit of the doubt.

There used to be a heart surgeon in Harrison, AR who was this way. Everyone always said "pray that Doc Bell has a few belts in him if he's ever operating on you."

In this case it wasn't because of any disease other than alcoholism though.

Oh...and he was a pilot too!
 
Last edited:
I heard people before saying they drive better when a little drunk. Maybe it was true after all!

What surprises me is that you could function at 0.18 BAC back in the beginning. Without some serious tolerance, I think most people would be pretty wasted by that point. At 0.06 I can see it (and it's actually kind of legal for driving in most places in the US).

It was a surprise, but looking back at things it also made sense. Whenever I took OTC drugs like Tylenol, Bayer, etc... the recommended dosages never alleviated the situation. I always had to take two to three times the recommended dosage to feel any effects. It really came to light when I needed to have wisdom teeth pulled and everyone I talked to that had been put under said the nitrous would be an interesting experience and once the IV drip started I would be out in under ten seconds. Well, the N2O did not have an effect. After the drip started, I could feel it starting to affect me, but I had a thirty to forty five second conversation with the doctor before I finally went under.



Interesting metabolic/brain chemistry issue, good luck and thanks for relaying your story. Whether you'll be able to work something out with the FAA is pretty doubtful especially in today's climate of everybody has to fit the cookie cutter mould bureaucracy dictates, but you never know. A person who may be interested just from an intellectual curiosity standpoint is Dr Bruce Chien (although he may also curse me for giving you his name ;) I think he's curious enough to want to learn what he can from your condition and is a really good guy, Aeromedicaldoc.com, the AOPA forums, or Facebook is where he can be contacted), and he would be in a position to help if it is possible. Worth a shot, and again, good luck.

BTW, you can fly PT 103 Ultralights.

I am fairly certain that the FAA has their bureaucratic box so constrained they wouldn't be able to think that somewhere, someone doesn't fall into their neat, orderly, black and white world, so I am hesitant to contact Dr Chien, because I have a pretty good idea on how he would respond. The part 103 aircraft sounds like an option, except I may have a hard time convincing the wife and kids to wear helmets and be strapped to the airframe. That might put me over the 600lbs (I think?) weight limit as well.


I think not.
I don't think the FAA would have much trouble convincing an ALJ, the NTSB, or the US Court of Appeals that operating an ultralight air vehicle with a BAC of 0.18 would "create a hazard to other persons or property".

If allowed to demonstrate my abilities on multiple occasions with varying BAC levels, I am certain that I can demonstrate I would not be a hazard to other persons or property. Even the FAA (through the designated examiner) already deemed me to not be a hazard while under the influence. They could probably make a case that I am a hazard while sober however, as demonstrated on my first commercial check ride.


Seriously, am I the only person who's BS detector pegged after the 5th or 6th paragraph?

"After talking with his boss, a couple of local magistrates, and being put under very strict guidelines I was issued a probationary drivers license. This went on for a few years, and after not having any issues, I got a zero restriction drivers license."

Uh, rightttttt...

Well, that is one of the benefits of living in a small population center - although center probably isn't the best descriptor. I left out a lot of the details of obtaining the drivers license because they weren't germane to the situation. I can expound if it is necessary, but it was not just a simple single conversation. It was months and months of observation, demonstration, and supervision before the probational license was issued.

Greg assumes facts not in evidence. All we have is the OP's word for his ability to fly safely while legally intoxicated, and someone in that condition is hardly reliable as a judge of his own performance.

And that of three separate designated examiners, and a handful of flight instructors that signed off on my flight reviews. And you certainly had no qualms about my performance when we flew together quite a few years ago. So, it's not just my word, it's also yours. Yes, you were one of the people from the board I have flown with. But, no, you did not sign my logbook, so don't worry about being the instructor that I flew with.

I am pretty certain this is a troll, a very detailed and well-played one but a troll. Apart from the legal issues surrounding getting a driver's license with the OP's medical situation, my question is: how do you fly with a CFI, much less a DPE, without their knowing you've been drinking? I can tell when a co-worker has had one drink with lunch and I have a decent, but not exceptional, sense of smell. To not notice that the OP had been drinking enough to put him in the 0.06+ range, those guys would have to have had colds or allergies bad enough to be grounding, or else noses made of wood.

It's quite easy to cover up the smell of alcohol with the right combination of gum and/or breath mints. I always carry a couple containers of Tic Tacs, rolls of mints, or packs of gum and just continuously pop those while flying with someone. Accidentally spilling 100LL on my sleeve while sumping the tanks also masks the smell.



I do appreciate the input and suggestions, although some of them I hope I don't have to follow.
 
I am hesitant to contact Dr Chien, because I have a pretty good idea on how he would respond.

I know exactly how he would respond:
"YGTBSM!" and then the obligatory *sigh*.

I get the whole high tolerance thing, I'm in the same boat, but there's no way I would ever fly or drive when I know my BAC is going to get my ass in trouble, should something happen. Even if it's not my fault. And I see you've spawned, so now you're passing your inane thought process on to the next generation. Great, another generation of stupid pilot tricks. I don't know who's worse, you or TCOTML. Of course, you're probably one of those ****ing idiots too.
 
I do appreciate the input and suggestions, although some of them I hope I don't have to follow.

I think at this point there's nothing more to say, and I'm confused by your "some of them I hope I don't have to follow" statement.

Your options at this point aren't a mystery. They are:

1. Keep doing what you're doing, which (based on your posts) seems to be working out fine for you, but isn't compatible with ever coming to anybody's attention, or

2. Fly ultralights under the theory that you with alcohol in your system are safe, while you without alcohol in your system are unsafe. This option doesn't work if you ever come to anybody's attention either, both because it's a hard thing to convince people of, and because to convince them you would have to admit to flying intoxicated up to this point, or

3. Stop flying as PIC for the moment, work with a neurologist to find a prescription med that works like alcohol for you, then fly as a sport pilot using that (with your docs' blessings), and then decide whether you want to try for a medical based on that drug.


#3 is the only cleanly legal option. You're not going to convince the FAA to make an exception for your BAC. They tend not to make one-off exceptions, because they're a big risk management organization; even their "exceptions" are generally well-circumscribed and risk-evaluated. Think of the news stories that would show up if you crashed and blew a 0.16 and it should be obvious why.

If you absolutely need to fly PIC for some reason and absolutely can't go the neurologist route, your only reasonable option is #1, and hoping you don't get caught. It would be wise to completely minimize your risk of getting caught (completely avoid the ATC system and manned airports, never fly with anyone who would possibly turn you in, never tell anyone that you're a pilot, never tell anyone about your 'special' driving situation) and prepare to get caught anyway (make sure you either have a ton of money for when insurance won't pay for something, or make sure you have assets that aren't forfeit in bankruptcy).

I have the same doubts as everybody else about the veracity of your story, but if you do keep the current situation up, I imagine you'll get caught one of these days. Your drivers' license story is weird enough that I'm sure the cops and magistrate tell their buddies about it. If any of them also hear you fly, and tell the wrong concerned citizen, the FAA will hear about it.

Either do #1 and hope you don't kill anyone (because any of us could, but for you the consequences would be worse), or do #3 and best of luck with the doc. But I don't think there are more solutions to be found, and I don't think you "have to follow" anybody's advice, so I'm not sure why we're still in this thread...
 
Pt 103 Ultralights are one person only. Give Bruce a shout, can't hurt. If you have the drivers license/court approved system you described, you are definitely down, but you're not out until the ref calls you out unless you take yourself out.
 
I have Asperger's syndrome, but being 60 years old, I've worked through most of the issues and you'd have a hard time knowing it unless you lived with me. That said, I have the poor coordination skills that are typical with Asperger's and it took forever to get my brain wired to my legs during training. Even though I've never broken any of the 3 alcohol rules, I am absolutely certain that my landings would improve with a couple of beers.

That is interesting. Is this a known connection between alcohol and Asperger's?

I can understand how it might help with coordination and social skills... but I think in both your case and the OP's, after a couple beers your decision making and situational awareness would be down the toilet.
 
Last edited:
Seriously, am I the only person who's BS detector pegged after the 5th or 6th paragraph?

"After talking with his boss, a couple of local magistrates, and being put under very strict guidelines I was issued a probationary drivers license. This went on for a few years, and after not having any issues, I got a zero restriction drivers license."

Uh, rightttttt...

Same here, I find it hard to believe that all of these people would sign off on him being able to drive while legally intoxicated. That would put tons of liability on them as well as the county and state for issuing the license if there ever was an incident caused.
 
Same here, I find it hard to believe that all of these people would sign off on him being able to drive while legally intoxicated. That would put tons of liability on them as well as the county and state for issuing the license if there ever was an incident caused.

Oh i'm sure the OP is full of crap, no doubt there.
 
Old Thread: Hello . There have been no replies in this thread for 365 days.
Content in this thread may no longer be relevant.
Perhaps it would be better to start a new thread instead.
Back
Top