United Airlines and biofuel

AggieMike88

AggieMike88

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The original "I don't know it all" of aviation.
I guess to make up some good PR to balance against the bad luck with guitars, United conducted a flight with passengers using bio fuel.

http://usat.ly/tchwAZ

According to the article, some military flights are also giving it a try.
 
Way of the future. If we want a plug-in replacement for fossil fuels, it will be made by microbes.
 
Provided, of course, it can be made in sufficient quantities to make a difference.
 
steingar said:
No problem. Microbial populations expand exponentially.
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Odd that this caused a certain Michael Criton story to pop into my head...

I guess this is what the security checkpoints of the future might entail: Link to photo
 
steingar said:
No problem. Microbial populations expand exponentially.
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Once you get the conditions right.

Growing the algae (best candidate IMO right now) on a small scale is easy but scaling up the tanks while still generating a good yield of oil is more difficult. One issue is that the depth of ponds, or the width of pipes is limited because the algae starts to block sunlight. There are also aeration issues and nutrient feed issues when scaling up any sort of fermenter. The pharma companies have these issues with cell culture too.
 
Cap'n Jack said:
Once you get the conditions right.

Growing the algae (best candidate IMO right now) on a small scale is easy but scaling up the tanks while still generating a good yield of oil is more difficult. One issue is that the depth of ponds, or the width of pipes is limited because the algae starts to block sunlight. There are also aeration issues and nutrient feed issues when scaling up any sort of fermenter. The pharma companies have these issues with cell culture too.
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You can't be serious? Brewers have been dealing with the same issues forever, as has big Pharma, but for far less time. Seriously, I can't foresee any trouble at all scaling something like this up. Microbes are far easier to grow than mammalian cells.

Put another way, the issues involved are all straightforward ones of engineering and fermentation. Any other alternative energy source depends on new technology.
 
steingar said:
You can't be serious? Brewers have been dealing with the same issues forever, as has big Pharma, but for far less time. Seriously, I can't foresee any trouble at all scaling something like this up. Microbes are far easier to grow than mammalian cells.

Put another way, the issues involved are all straightforward ones of engineering and fermentation. Any other alternative energy source depends on new technology.
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Brewers don't need to get light to each yeast cell in order for it to do its job.

Paul
 
PaulMillner said:
Brewers don't need to get light to each yeast cell in order for it to do its job.

Paul
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True, but they do have to maintain specific conditions of temperature, salinity, and oxidation. The biggest difference between yeast and algae is light, and it is not that big a problem to overcome.
 
steingar said:
You can't be serious? Brewers have been dealing with the same issues forever, as has big Pharma, but for far less time. Seriously, I can't foresee any trouble at all scaling something like this up. Microbes are far easier to grow than mammalian cells.

Put another way, the issues involved are all straightforward ones of engineering and fermentation. Any other alternative energy source depends on new technology.
Click to expand...
Having worked in the field (at Schering Plough, now it's part of Merck) growing bacteria and fungi for natural products and isolating the metabolites, I am serious. Scaling up a fermentation doesn't mean you get the desired compound expressed. If you do get the metabolite, you generally get it in a lower yield upon scale-up. You may get a different compund upon scale-up, or nothing at all.
 
steingar said:
True, but they do have to maintain specific conditions of temperature, salinity, and oxidation. The biggest difference between yeast and algae is light, and it is not that big a problem to overcome.
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Light is a bigger problem than you think. The problem with light is it only goes maybe six inches into the medium after the algae get growing. Some ideas to overcome this include stirrers to mix the fermentation so all the algae get some light at some time (but they aren't getting light all the time), and "piping" light into the tank with rods.

The abstract of this recent paper describes some of the issues:
http://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/ie901459u

There's a lot of people working on making algae based biodiesel cost-effective at the volumes of material we need.
 
Cap'n Jack said:
There's a lot of people working on making algae based biodiesel cost-effective at the volumes of material we need.
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And they'll get there, using extant technology. Remember, you aren't generating a rare secondary metabolite. The algae strains being used are up to 50% oil, they're living biodiesel. And the efforts to genetically manipulate them to make more or specific organic compounds have barely begun.

If we're to find our way out of the bind we're in, microbes will do it for us. Their power is amazing. We'll find a way to harness it. Fortunately, the government has been quietly investing in microbiology for a long time. It is going to pay off in spades.
 
steingar said:
And they'll get there, using extant technology. Remember, you aren't generating a rare secondary metabolite. The algae strains being used are up to 50% oil, they're living biodiesel. And the efforts to genetically manipulate them to make more or specific organic compounds have barely begun.

If we're to find our way out of the bind we're in, microbes will do it for us. Their power is amazing. We'll find a way to harness it. Fortunately, the government has been quietly investing in microbiology for a long time. It is going to pay off in spades.
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And I agree with this...I was just saying it isn't as easy as many people think it is. If it was so easy, we'd be there now.

The nice thing about the acyl glycerides being produced is that they can be refined to make a lot of petrochemicals (like regular gasoline). So we keep our existing engines, distribution infrastructure, but potentially have renewable fuel with the carbon cycle loop closed off (carbon dioxide going to the algae) without using cropland.
 
steingar said:
And they'll get there, using extant technology. Remember, you aren't generating a rare secondary metabolite. The algae strains being used are up to 50% oil, they're living biodiesel. And the efforts to genetically manipulate them to make more or specific organic compounds have barely begun.

If we're to find our way out of the bind we're in, microbes will do it for us. Their power is amazing. We'll find a way to harness it. Fortunately, the government has been quietly investing in microbiology for a long time. It is going to pay off in spades.
Click to expand...
After all, aren't microbes how the "regular" oil was created?
 
TMetzinger said:
After all, aren't microbes how the "regular" oil was created?
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I thought it was high pressure and temperature, time, and dinosaurs. But I know little geology. But if microbes can eat petroleum, they can make it. Making is just eating run backwards.
 
I've been a fan of all this since 2005 and mostly been laughed at. Glad to see it's finally catching on. To say yes to alternative fuels DOES NOT MAKE YOU A GRANOLA HEAD ! I'm a registered republican, a veteran and HUGE consumer of fossil fuels (three cars, a twin engine boat and an airplane) and as such feel it's one of the smartest things we as country can do. Imagine a world wherein we don't give a sh*t about what happens in the Middle East. Yes, most of our oil IS imported from Canada but Canada DOES NOT hold a seat on OPEC and OPEC loves to throw curve balls at the West and I for one am just a little fed up with it.
 
TMetzinger said:
After all, aren't microbes how the "regular" oil was created?
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That's the current theory as I understand it.

steingar said:
I thought it was high pressure and temperature, time, and dinosaurs. But I know little geology. But if microbes can eat petroleum, they can make it. Making is just eating run backwards.
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I'm sure you're kidding about the dinosaurs, but the rest of it is correct.

The current theory is that petroleum came from algae as Tim mentioned. Supporting this theory is the isolation of porphyrin compounds from petroleum (similar to the structure of chlorophyll, ref 1). I heard that the algae that became petroleum is also responsible for a lot of the iron ore we use- the oxygen produced by the algae reacted with iron dissolved in the oceans and precipitated out. One of the limiting factors for algae in the oceans is iron and there have been ideas to dump iron in the ocean to encourage agae to grow and remove carbon dioxide.

1. http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0146638005002068
 
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