Under insured and sweating a little bit..

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Ron B

Filing Flight Plan
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Ron bees
Unfortunately at our Airpark, an airplane was landing and ran off the runway and hit my parked plane in front of my hanger. Fortunately I was not in my plane and the two occupants in the other plane were OK. Very sad to see but my aircraft could be damaged beyond repair and a total loss. i’m still waiting on his insurance adjuster and to get estimates.
My concern is, I know my aircraft is under insured. My bad for not increasing the hull value over the years while increasing the value of the plane with upgrades.
My insurance company says they will cover the plane up to the covered hull value which its not even close of what it’s worth in today’s market.
Since the accident is the other pilots fault, shouldn’t his insurance be liable to cover 100% total cost to repair or replace my plane?
I’m wondering how I capture the total cost from his insurance if my insurance will only cover up to a certain amount.
Perhaps I don't file a clam through my insurance and get my own adjuster? Maybe someone else has been in the same situation and has some advice.
This is still fresh and just trying to figure out my best options. Thanks!
 
If you can reach out to the pilot and find out who is insurance carrier is, you can make a claim directly with them. This is the reason he has insurance, so he will probably cooperate to give it to you if he has insurance. If he won't talk to you to give you his insurance information, you can just file a lawsuit against the other pilot. If he is insured, his carrier will provide a defense and respond to your claim. You can probably pursue both avenues of recovery- your insurance and his-- so you can get funds from your carrier now while pursuing the other pilot through the court system. In my state, you can recover from your carrier, and then recover the whole amount of the damage from the tortfeasor, and just pay back your insurance carrier what your received, assuming you make a full recovery. Alternatively, you can just collect from your carrier, and then your carrier might pursue a subrogation action against them, which you can join, and get your uninsured portion through that action while they and their lawyers handle the lawsuit.

If you do receive a payment from your carrier, then whatever you do with respect to the claim against the other pilot, be sure to check your insurance policy and/or your adjuster to see what duties you owe your own carrier. If you settle the claim with the tortfeasor, you are probably binding the carrier. If they have a subrogation interest and you settle with the tortfeasor, you may be harming them, and violating your duties to cooperate with their recovery.

Talk to a lawyer in your jurisdiction. I am sure you have several options.
 
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Ron B said:
Unfortunately at our Airpark, an airplane was landing and ran off the runway and hit my parked plane in front of my hanger. Fortunately I was not in my plane and the two occupants in the other plane were OK. Very sad to see but my aircraft could be damaged beyond repair and a total loss. i’m still waiting on his insurance adjuster and to get estimates.
My concern is, I know my aircraft is under insured. My bad for not increasing the hull value over the years while increasing the value of the plane with upgrades.
My insurance company says they will cover the plane up to the covered hull value which its not even close of what it’s worth in today’s market.
Since the accident is the other pilots fault, shouldn’t his insurance be liable to cover 100% total cost to repair or replace my plane?
I’m wondering how I capture the total cost from his insurance if my insurance will only cover up to a certain amount.
Perhaps I don't file a clam through my insurance and get my own adjuster? Maybe someone else has been in the same situation and has some advice.
This is still fresh and just trying to figure out my best options. Thanks!
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Your not the first or the last to be hit with this problem, uninsured aircraft owners are out their some fly junk aircraft some fly real nice aircraft you just don't know. If the person that hit you has insurance you might be in for a long and tangled settlement of what your plane is worth since you did not insure it for the value you seek.
 
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It’s possible the other pilots insurance might only cover your loss up to the the value you insured your airplane for. Could get messy,
 
frfly172 said:
It’s possible the other pilots insurance might only cover your loss up to the the value you insured your airplane for. Could get messy,
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Two people have said this now, and I'm still very surprised. What difference should it make that my declared value is? There are lots of scenarios in which my insurance might be very different from the value of the plane.

1) I have no insurance because I'm a big grump who thinks insurance is a scam
2) I have no insurance because I'm not airworthy thanks to supply chain and parts I need not being available for at least a year
3) I'm liability only because my plane is weird, difficult to value and I just don't worry about things like that
4) My plane is worth 500K, but I only have a note for 150K, so that's what I use for declared value because my bank requires their nut to be covered
5) My plane is worth 400K, but I only insure it for $250K because it's all I can justify given the rates for my make/model and if I total it, 250K will at least get me airborne again in a different plane.

So if I wreck, obviously it makes sense that the insurance companies exposure is limited to those amounts. But if someone crashes into me, why should my decisions above limit their liability?
 
frfly172 said:
It’s possible the other pilots insurance might only cover your loss up to the the value you insured your airplane for. Could get messy,
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Or they may use vref or some other appraisal tool that may not accurately reflect the value of your plane.

I would recommend getting an AP or two to give you a detailed estimate of how much it would take to repair the plane.
 
I would notify your carrier then put them on hold until and when the other carrier either accepts or rejects liability and makes a tentative settlement. Lots can go sideways in Aviation insurance as so many things must be right for the Company to accept liability. Things like medicals, air-worthiness, pilot currency and operation stipulations can play a factors…if anything seems to be going sideways take your claim off hold and proceed and it’s then time to find an Aviation lawyer…
 
frfly172 said:
It’s possible the other pilots insurance might only cover your loss up to the the value you insured your airplane for. Could get messy,
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How would they find out how much your coverage was?
 
That sucks, sorry! I have no experience with aviation insurance claims, but I would think the other party is liable for your loss and the only quibbiling would be on agreeing on a value of your aircraft and/or estimating the cost of repairs.
 
I’m not sure if aircraft is at fault or not at fault like auto. But my thought is, get the other pilots insurance info and call them to file a claim. If they are playing games then that’s when you call your insurance. Check your policy if there is a timeline to notify your insurance about the incident.
 
The first thing you want to do whenever POSSIBLE legal issues with insurance companies or other parties are involved is delete this thread immediately. Do not post about Trust me, your admission online that you are knowingly underinsured WILL hurt you. Also, speaking further about tactics on how to deal with adjusters and insurance, bad deal. Insurance companies will always try and do what they can to pay the least they can. They have investigators, they can find information you post online. Speak with an insurance/aviation lawyer on these matters.
 
I'm wondering how it would be relevant what the insured value of your aircraft is if the other person is liable for the accident? That's just the value I insure, if I insure it at all.

There's a number of ways that are better to figure out a current "value" of the aircraft, and it seems like doing this in a legal setting is a whole business line for VREF.

Then again I'm not an attorney so maybe the value you insure it at does make a difference... In any case, given the dollar values involved it's likely advantageous to you to get an attorney on standby in case things get complicated.
 
If all works out properly, your insurance company won't be involved, except when you cancel the policy 'cuz your plane is totalled.
 
Kenny Phillips said:
If all works out properly, your insurance company won't be involved, except when you cancel the policy 'cuz your plane is totalled.
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Yeah don’t forget to get the unearned portion of your premium back for the remainder of the 12 months policy period (if you paid upfront vs monthly.)

And, once the dust has settled check back here to let us know how it all turned out.
 
Most Aviation policies (unlike other property policies) are 100% earned with a total loss with a payment by your carrier. So if you use your carrier and the policy has the clause you may not get any money back…I would also ask that question and take it into consideration.
 
When the FBO's HeiHeis Loft-bombed my last airplane at their community hangar with a Mk.SnapOn toolbox some years back, the FBO owner's insurance handled everything with zero issues. It was the most cordial and automated process I've dealt with to be honest. It almost felt like they were working for me and not their client. The AP overbilled them on labor (as insurance claim inflation obviously induces that grift, I digress), everything still got paid on time. Point being, never once through that entire evolution was there a single point of discussion about my own insurance, its status, coverage limits or the like. None.

Now I suppose it is conceivable that if there had been some contesting, namely say the FBO argued no-fault to the damage or similar disagreement, then my own insurance limits would present the recovery limit, at least in the short term. I can see how one may feel miffed about another party forcing one's hand into a eating one's underinsurance, as opposed to one's own doing forcing you to eat your gamble. But that's called gambling, and it's the reason many of us carry uninsured motorist coverage in autos for instance.

Could a responsible party research the insurance status of the victim, in order to arbitrage their own cost limiting? That's pretty far fetched, though I suppose given that circumstance [underinsurance] I wouldn't go to them and volunteer that information. That'd certainly be an incentive for them to clam up initially and force you to make a claim with your own carrier, in the hopes you'd be dissuaded from pursuing protracted legal recovery options. I still think it's far fetched though.
 
Ron B said:
Unfortunately at our Airpark, an airplane was landing and ran off the runway and hit my parked plane in front of my hanger. Fortunately I was not in my plane and the two occupants in the other plane were OK. Very sad to see but my aircraft could be damaged beyond repair and a total loss. i’m still waiting on his insurance adjuster and to get estimates.
My concern is, I know my aircraft is under insured. My bad for not increasing the hull value over the years while increasing the value of the plane with upgrades.
My insurance company says they will cover the plane up to the covered hull value which its not even close of what it’s worth in today’s market.
Since the accident is the other pilots fault, shouldn’t his insurance be liable to cover 100% total cost to repair or replace my plane?
I’m wondering how I capture the total cost from his insurance if my insurance will only cover up to a certain amount.
Perhaps I don't file a clam through my insurance and get my own adjuster? Maybe someone else has been in the same situation and has some advice.
This is still fresh and just trying to figure out my best options. Thanks!
Click to expand...
Hire your own adjuster to determine your loss. Then contact the operator/ owner of the other plane and demand payment. If their insurance is not responsive, you will likely need to hire an attorney.
 
Your plane is parked...this is what's know in the liability world as a "best case scenario" for you (I don't actually know this but work with me.)

Because he hit your plane MOST LIKELY he is going to be 100% at fault for the collision. It's hard to see a scenario where you bare any percentage of fault unless you parked your plane on the runway or taxiway...If you did that...then YOU might be the one on the hook. But let's assume you are parked in a legal parking area and your plane got walloped in this legal parking area. Then the other pilots LIABILITY coverage is what you need to make a claim against.

Your insurance value for your plane makes NO difference. Now, MAYBE the other pilots insurance company will claim that your declared hull value is the "actual" value and so that's the most they're going to pay. Now...that's why lawsuits exist. The other party is on the LIABILITY hook for the value of the damage caused to your plane. (The lower of cost to repair or cost to replace.) SO...start today getting estimates...VREF trade-a-plane etc of what the ACTUAL value of your plane was literally yesterday.

NOW what if the other party does NOT have liability coverage? Well this is where the MOST your insurance will cover you for is your declared value. You can still sue the other party for your damages which, if you win (which talk to a lawyer about the actual facts and circumstances of your case) you will get a judgment for that value. Assuming that he has some liquid assets (he has a plane so he probably has SOME) you can take those assets once you get your judgment.

IF you were completely UNINSURED which you have the right to be (this could also be called "Self-Insured") you would still have a liability claim against the party who hit you. This is why you need to figure out who his insurer is and if doesn't tell you, then I would talk to a lawyer sooner rather than later. This can be a lot more complicated and this is just "some guy on the internet speaking" but your declared Hull value doesn't really matter in a situation where you're claiming against someone else's liability coverage.


Now let's say his liability coverage is $100,000 and your actual Hull value is $150,000. You may get an offer to settle at policy limits (for the 100k, these are not easy questions to answer and can depend on...do you want to take $100,000 today or worry about litigating etc. for the balance of 50k). Tough questions, sorry about the predicament you find yourself it.
 
Be aware that winning a lawsuit is not the same as collecting the money. A high percentage of lawsuits won never get paid. There are numerous dodges to legally avoid payment. The simplest is a divorce giving the wife 100% of the assets. Done by shoddy builders all the time. Simply moving assets around can end up costing you more than the claim. Trusts and LLC’s are other methods. A judgement against a LLC is pretty useless.
Under insuring an aircraft regardless of the cause or fault also can be problematic. Your 125,000 dollar aircraft insured for 75,000 gets damaged to the tune of 40,000. Insurance totals it and sell the aircraft at auction for 60k. They are only out 15k. They will be very quick to total an underinsured aircraft.
 
Are you an AOPA member, and did you pay for the legal insurance? If so, it's free to talk to a lawyer specializing in aviation-related issues about this. Just call up the AOPA and they'll put you in touch with one. Will it help? I don't know, but it may give you some peace of mind.
 
Clip4 said:
Hire your own adjuster to determine your loss. Then contact the operator/ owner of the other plane and demand payment. If their insurance is not responsive, you will likely need to hire an attorney.
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Why not get quotes on what it cost to fix it? That way you have hard numbers. An adjuster's estimate is just that. Plus, if you want it fixed, and the adjuster's number is too high (incorrectly), you could be dealing with a total loss, when in fact it is not. Plus, you're paying for an adjuster's opinion and not an estimate.
 
gov98 said:
Your plane is parked...this is what's know in the liability world as a "best case scenario" for you (I don't actually know this but work with me.)

Because he hit your plane MOST LIKELY he is going to be 100% at fault for the collision. It's hard to see a scenario where you bare any percentage of fault unless you parked your plane on the runway or taxiway...If you did that...then YOU might be the one on the hook. But let's assume you are parked in a legal parking area and your plane got walloped in this legal parking area. Then the other pilots LIABILITY coverage is what you need to make a claim against.

Your insurance value for your plane makes NO difference. Now, MAYBE the other pilots insurance company will claim that your declared hull value is the "actual" value and so that's the most they're going to pay. Now...that's why lawsuits exist. The other party is on the LIABILITY hook for the value of the damage caused to your plane. (The lower of cost to repair or cost to replace.) SO...start today getting estimates...VREF trade-a-plane etc of what the ACTUAL value of your plane was literally yesterday.

NOW what if the other party does NOT have liability coverage? Well this is where the MOST your insurance will cover you for is your declared value. You can still sue the other party for your damages which, if you win (which talk to a lawyer about the actual facts and circumstances of your case) you will get a judgment for that value. Assuming that he has some liquid assets (he has a plane so he probably has SOME) you can take those assets once you get your judgment.

IF you were completely UNINSURED which you have the right to be (this could also be called "Self-Insured") you would still have a liability claim against the party who hit you. This is why you need to figure out who his insurer is and if doesn't tell you, then I would talk to a lawyer sooner rather than later. This can be a lot more complicated and this is just "some guy on the internet speaking" but your declared Hull value doesn't really matter in a situation where you're claiming against someone else's liability coverage.


Now let's say his liability coverage is $100,000 and your actual Hull value is $150,000. You may get an offer to settle at policy limits (for the 100k, these are not easy questions to answer and can depend on...do you want to take $100,000 today or worry about litigating etc. for the balance of 50k). Tough questions, sorry about the predicament you find yourself it.
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Take the $100K plus salvage. I did that with a car once, came out ahead.
 
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