Ultralight virgin.

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Threefingeredjack
I am thinking about getting an ultralight to use while sheltering for the winter a warmer place. I know absolutely nothing about this type of flying so am hoping that, (and I'm sure there are), some members can steer me away from mistakes and toward some better types. Thanks.
 
I'm considering a gyrocopter at some point in the not-too-distant-future. Another option for you to throw into the hat.
 
Just a minor point - Gyrocopter is actually a patented term that only refers to the Bensen series of gyroplanes. All others are just Gyroplanes or simply gyros (not to confused with the Greek entree).
 
Just a minor point - Gyrocopter is actually a patented term that only refers to the Bensen series of gyroplanes. All others are just Gyroplanes or simply gyros (not to confused with the Greek entree).

Names can't be patented, but the object it describes, the Benson Gyrocopter can. The name is more likely trademark protected. Anyway, I do remember sending in for info about the Benson back in the 60s, I was about 12. I lusted for one!
 
I am thinking about getting an ultralight to use while sheltering for the winter a warmer place.
While people with actual experience are asleep, here's what I found while I looked into ultralights.

The biggest issue is the instruction, because there is NONE, since FAA made it illegal in 2006. All training ultralights were re-designated E-LSA, but instruction in E-LSA is not permitted without a special paperwork, and nobody's got that. Secondly, FAA invalidated all ultralight instructor credentials.

While -- in my honest opinion (sorry, Ron! sorry Dr. Bruce!) -- anyone who flew a light single can check himeslf out in a market-leading S-LSA such as CT (only takes dilligent studying of systems and then an hour of "sofa flying"), ultralights are different enough from even lightest Part 23 airplanes that it's an unsafe excercise. But it's what you must do if you want to fly one.

The only safe option is basically to get illegal instruction from a friend while flying right seat in his S-12 or such. You need a very good friend though, because insurance is going to be unhappy should an accident happen.

As for types, that's no problem, provided you can fly them. There's a large variety and I'm going to talk about Ready To Fly airplanes ONLY (not kits).

BTW, this disqualifies Kolb _and_ Quicksilver: both far away market leaders in this business. Kinda amazing how many people are willing to build: way more than those buying ultralights, apparently! I am a big fan of Kolb's proven track record. If you are ok with buying a used Kolb, go for it. The main problem with Kolb is that it's essentially impossible to find a true ultralight one. Over the years Kolb gained weight, and Firefly fights this fight again, it appears. This means really drastic cuts in what's available on it -- if you can even find one. New-built Firelflies ONLY comply if BRS is installed, thanks to the safety allowance, and some DARs take a dim view of this trick.

Pudgy and reliable Kolb aside, next two reputable types are Aerolite 103 and Belite. A-103 is like Quicksilver RTF and Belite is like a very puny Cub (it's actually a much reworked Kitfox that's hardly recognizeable anymore). A-103 is sold out of Ohio, 2012 list $16.5k + BRS $3,650. Belite is built to order and comes in a variety of guises and with options, but surprisingly the stripper comes in the same price $16k+$3k chute. Both strippers are powered by Hirth F33 and frankly there's very little choose between them - except that Belite can only lift my disgusting hulk in t/w configuration.

Next comes the Back Yard Flyer (BYF). That brainchild of Gene Smith is a little controversial, because it disposes with many notions of good aircraft design and peeves homebuilders to no end. I studied the issues and I would not hesitate to fly one. About 20 are sold and ownders love them. Same $20k in a deal, BUT amazingly, it has a 4-stroke engine with electric start! Unfortunately, its wing does not fold: it swings. So it requires a long trailer. I heard you could stuff it into a 24-ft with V-nose, carefuly. But 30 ft is better. In comparison, Kolb is only 19 ft long when folded. I suppose if you keep it in a barn, then it's no factor...

Finally, the companies that I basically eliminated: Quad City makes a Challanger kit that allegedly dealer can build, Earthstar build an allegedly compliant version of Gull, and M-squared build what amounts to Quicksilver RTF. Getting info from those guys is like pulling teeth, their customer bases are small, and generally I just don't see any advantages over the leaders. I'm sure some folks extracted fine airplanes from these companies.
 
+1 for Kolb....do it right and they are safe, great flying airplanes. This was mine:

104makk.jpg
 
Kolb, Rans, both great machines.

Don't for one second think you can jump in one and fly it "cuz your a pilot" . Lots have died trying.
 
You can get a 103 compliant Challenger I, can you not? Those seem to be a widely produced model, so they must be doing something right.
 
You can get a 103 compliant Challenger I, can you not? Those seem to be a widely produced model, so they must be doing something right.

Yes you can, and from one who has owned 2 Challengers, I highly recommend them. But training is a MUST! Don't think just because you have flown certified airplanes you can jump in one and go, you will make a smoking whole in the ground.
 
Don't for one second think you can jump in one and fly it "cuz your a pilot" . Lots have died trying.
You sure have a way with words. I spent 3 paragraphs above trying to express the same thought.

Still, with ultralight instruction unavailable, what's the solution?

In my local ultralight club, new members are referred to a local instructor with a Cessna 120. This is far from an ultralight, but at least they learn tailwheel... After that, it's just the high-speed taxi and then gather your wits and fly; do a few slow maneuvers, then land.

FAA is just a bunch of murderers, frankly.

BTW, there's another way... Start with weight-shift, even foot-launched wings. I made an acquiantance with a local guy with QuickSilver MXL. He says that he crashed his weight-shift, 2-axis, and 3-axis ultralights 10 times. In some of those crashes the aircraft was a total write-off. He never even broke a bone.
 
Yes you can, and from one who has owned 2 Challengers, I highly recommend them. But training is a MUST! Don't think just because you have flown certified airplanes you can jump in one and go, you will make a smoking whole in the ground.

Lots of adverse yaw, from what I've heard. A coworker of mine had one in Missouri on floats, IIRC, but ended up selling. Sounded like a blast
 
Yes you can, and from one who has owned 2 Challengers, I highly recommend them. But training is a MUST! Don't think just because you have flown certified airplanes you can jump in one and go, you will make a smoking whole in the ground.


Agreed.... My hangar mate who had thousands of hours flying his own CJ, and a few more thousand flying cropdusters, bought a Hawk CGS and proceeded to kill himself within sight of the hangar... That was a real sad day around here.... Being the 9 richest person in the world with assets of 24 billion didn't help him either..

Godspeed John Walton.:sad::sad::sad::sad:
 
Lots of adverse yaw, from what I've heard. A coworker of mine had one in Missouri on floats, IIRC, but ended up selling. Sounded like a blast

The adverse yaw is only on the 2 place when flying with the doors on, Finlets take care of 95% of it, and as long as you know about it, its not a big deal. The problem is with people jumping in it without training and not recognizing what is happening. If it happens, just level the wings, center the rudder and fly out of it.
 
The adverse yaw is only on the 2 place when flying with the doors on, Finlets take care of 95% of it, and as long as you know about it, its not a big deal. The problem is with people jumping in it without training and not recognizing what is happening. If it happens, just level the wings, center the rudder and fly out of it.

Ah, good to know. I looked at them for a while, but in the end, just couldn't bring myself to a 2 stroke powered aircraft.
 
Agreed.... My hangar mate who had thousands of hours flying his own CJ, and a few more thousand flying cropdusters, bought a Hawk CGS and proceeded to kill himself within sight of the hangar... That was a real sad day around here.... Being the 9 richest person in the world with assets of 24 billion didn't help him either..

Godspeed John Walton.:sad::sad::sad::sad:

Unfortunately , one of many. I use to buy and sell UL's . I can't count how many "pilots" have bought them, refused instruction (I was an instructor so I could carry students legally) then crashed them, landed hard leaving parts on the runway, ground looped, engine outs, you name it. I would buy them back, repair them, and resell them. :dunno:
 
Agreed.... My hangar mate who had thousands of hours flying his own CJ, and a few more thousand flying cropdusters, bought a Hawk CGS and proceeded to kill himself within sight of the hangar... That was a real sad day around here....
But the Hawk accident had nothing to do with the piloting or training. Locking collar slipped on the torque tube resulting in the loss of elevator control. I remember that case quite well, because Hawk is generally well-regarded as safe. I did not realize the identity of the pilot though.
http://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/wiki.php?id=44449

Loss of pitch control kills in any airplane, not just an ultralight. I remmeber how an Alaska Airlines MD-80 killed everyone onboard because jackscrew nut stripped. Exactly the same accident, and tells us nothing about the safety of ultralights.

BTW, CGS Hawk is quite nice and I thought about buying it as S-LSA, but it never happened, what with Danny trying to sell the company. It's pretty much an equivalent of Kolb: too heavy to really fit into the strict limits of ultralights.
 
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I friend of mine has an old Quicksilver MX and a North Wing Solairus (weight-shift) that I get to fly in exchange for maintenance help. They're actually very easy to fly, so you needn't be intimidated by them; but ultralight airplanes are very different from conventional airplanes. If you just get in the thing and fly, there's a good chance that'll be your last flight.

Instruction's gettable, however, and you don't even have to commit a federal crime to get it (although that's another option). The trick is to get an ultralight that has an LSA cousin with similar handling characteristics, and then take a few lessons. It's as easy as that. Almost all of the North Wing trikes and Quicksilver ultralight airplanes have LSA versions that can be used for dual.

Probably the place you need to call is your local EAA chapter. They'll know where to point you for instruction, preferably of the legal kind.

Now as for my personal experience, I found it harder to transition to the MX than to the trike, probably because flying a trike is completely different from flying an airplane. It has no control surfaces, so you don't bring any habits with you. It's also more intuitive.

So... If you're can't find an ultralight with an LSA cousin to use for dual, and you don't want to resort to illegal unorthodox instruction, you may want to consider a trike. You can get a pretty good feel for how trikes handle by taking a few hang glider lessons. In fact, I find hang gliders to be considerably more difficult to fly than powered ultralight trikes.

-Rich
 
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Agreed.... My hangar mate who had thousands of hours flying his own CJ, and a few more thousand flying cropdusters, bought a Hawk CGS and proceeded to kill himself within sight of the hangar... That was a real sad day around here.... Being the 9 richest person in the world with assets of 24 billion didn't help him either..

Godspeed John Walton.:sad::sad::sad::sad:
IIRC, the Walton case wasn't pilot error.

Ron Wanttaja
 
One thing that is probably worth mentioning is that in addition to the fact that ultralights handle differently from certified airplanes, is the engine differences. Alot of ULs use 2 strokes. After a bit of research and posting some questions here, I came to this conclusion: 2 strokes CAN be acceptable engines, but you can't operate them like you would a typical Continental or Lyc. You really need to understand the engine and they can require alot of personal mainenance to keep running safely.

That was why I nixed the idea of buying the Nieport replica (Rotax 503 powered). I knew I wasn't going to have the time to be constantly tinkering with it and I did not like the idea of having to shift my technique back and forth between the 170 and flying behind a 2-stroke. Based on that I decided to go with a Continental powered Pietenpol. If you are looking for a small, cheap and fun airplane to fly around, I'd highly recommend Piets or Fly-Babies.
 
But the Hawk accident had nothing to do with the piloting or training. Locking collar slipped on the torque tube resulting in the loss of elevator control. I remember that case quite well, because Hawk is generally well-regarded as safe. I did not realize the identity of the pilot though.
http://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/wiki.php?id=44449

Loss of pitch control kills in any airplane, not just an ultralight. I remmeber how an Alaska Airlines MD-80 killed everyone onboard because jackscrew nut stripped. Exactly the same accident, and tells us nothing about the safety of ultralights.

BTW, CGS Hawk is quite nice and I thought about buying it as S-LSA, but it never happened, what with Danny trying to sell the company. It's pretty much an equivalent of Kolb: too heavy to really fit into the strict limits of ultralights.


Hmmm... I am calling BS on that report. It is not the true NTSB one, but a report generated by another party. Click on the link you provided... On the bottom of that page, http://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/wiki.php?id=44449

there is a "edit this accident description".... I was able to change the description without even having to log onto anything :dunno::(, altho I didn't change a thing in that report... I could have, and so can you right now if you click on the edit section.

Fact... I helped him pull the plane out of hangar 3 that morning and was the last one to talk to him, besides the usual tower com stuff.

Fact... Altho I didn't actually witness the crash, I was working on the building at the FBO that morning and was contacted by rescue personal within 10 minutes and was asked to go to the scene to identify the deceased and help the park service fill out the reports. In the time it took me to put my tools away the local flight instructor had driven to the site to make a positive ID. Thee instructor called me and we discussed the basics of what he saw and I really didn't want to see John in that condition so I declined to assist... Big mistake on my part.

Fact... The first call by the National Park service was to the FAA in Casper Wy, They asked what kind of plane and the ranger said" it looks like a kite with fabric wings" . The FAA said it wasn't their responsibility. So the ranger called the Teton County Sheriff and reported the crash and the fatality.. The sheriff refused to help in the inverstigation but did call the coroner out. who happened to be working a horseriders death that same morning. It took his about a hour or so to arrive on the scene..

Fact... In that hour the rangers were getting ****ed that this hunk of fabric and metal was littering their precious sagebrush so they had one of the trash dumptrucks sent to the scene, along with the fire /rescue truck that had the "jaws of life" tool.... They proceeded to chop up the wreckage into small pieces and load it into the dump truck. At about the same time the truck was leaving the scene on the way to the trash transfer station the instructor was assisting the investigating ranger in the paperwork for a death, they removed Johns wallet and the instructor once again told them it was John Walton. They still had NO idea who he was other then a dead pilot..

Fact... The truck was about 3 miles down the road when a call comes in from DC to " secure the scene and preserve all the wreckage" ... That was a big OH ***** moment for the rangers. They called the truck on the radio and had it turn around and go straight to the park HQ in Moose Wy. The coroner had just arrived and pronounced and it appeared as if John might have survived the crash, except the motor had been ripped off the mounts and crushed him from behind.:sad:

Fact... later that day the dumptruck came to the airport and offloaded the wreckage into T hangar#1, which happened to be empty. The door was padlocked and stayed that way till the NTSB investigator showed up the next day... During that detailed investigation the NTSB guy asked to see my plane so I could describe and demonstrate how a in flight IVO prop operated. I viewed the wreckage for an hour or so with him and during that time an inspection mirror was found in the tailcone, sans ANY glass, just a bare frame. I went back to work and he spent all day documenting the wreckage and supposably went back to the scene to try and find the glass mirror parts. At the end of the day we chatted briefly and he said he could not find any trace of the glass, either on the ground at the scene or anywhere in the wreckage... That was the last I saw of him, he was a younger guy, very nice, polite and what appeared to me as a thorough inspector.

Fact.... Johns maroon surburban was parked in one of the enclosed bays in a building I had just finished constructing. In the Chevy were a couple of 5 gallon gas jugs, the side windows of the plane and a few other parts for it too. During this same timeframe I was participating in a chat room RAH on the internet and was contacted by a guy names Chuck Syslinski (sp). He told me he owned Hawk CGS and I told him what I just described here..

Rumors.... I have heard the plane crashed because the mirror jammed the controls... The plane crashed because of the side windows being left off... The plane crashed because of previous damage from a earlier hard landing a few days before. And now this report of a slipped locking collar...

Personally, I think the damage caused by the jaws of life during the removal process would have destroyed any marking on the control rod, but it is possible the inspector found the smoking gun among the mess the tailcone consisted of.:dunno:..

Lessons learned... if you fly an ultralight or an experimental, don't expect a thorough investigation. At best they will try to reconstruct the accident, at worst the mess will be promptly swept up, hauled to the closest dump and lime spread on the body fluids left at the scene.. All bets are off if you are worth 23 billion and the first responders destroyed the evidence and then crafted a clever probable cause to cleanse the report... We will probably never know the REAL reason what killed John but I can assure you, he would have wanted it to be ALOT more thorough....

Godspeed John... He was a great guy..:yes::sad:
 
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I am thinking about getting an ultralight to use while sheltering for the winter a warmer place. I know absolutely nothing about this type of flying so am hoping that, (and I'm sure there are), some members can steer me away from mistakes and toward some better types. Thanks.

Eiper products are my favorites, check out the Quicksilver MX-2, on amphibs it's hard to beat for fun.
 
While -- in my honest opinion (sorry, Ron! sorry Dr. Bruce!) -- anyone who flew a light single can check himeslf out in a market-leading S-LSA such as CT (only takes dilligent studying of systems and then an hour of "sofa flying"), ultralights are different enough from even lightest Part 23 airplanes that it's an unsafe excercise. But it's what you must do if you want to fly one.
I fundamentally agree, but the problem is, "do you have the right stuff". If you don't, it can be very punishing to those you love. :yikes:
 
Another idea: If you're open to the idea of purchasing a new ultralight, most ultralight manufacturers and dealers are able (and eager) to offer some instruction to purchasers who are new to ultralights. They obviously don't want anyone to get hurt, either.

-Rich
 
While people with actual experience are asleep, here's what I found while I looked into ultralights.

The biggest issue is the instruction, because there is NONE, since FAA made it illegal in 2006. All training ultralights were re-designated E-LSA, but instruction in E-LSA is not permitted without a special paperwork, and nobody's got that. Secondly, FAA invalidated all ultralight instructor credentials.

While -- in my honest opinion (sorry, Ron! sorry Dr. Bruce!) -- anyone who flew a light single can check himeslf out in a market-leading S-LSA such as CT (only takes dilligent studying of systems and then an hour of "sofa flying"), ultralights are different enough from even lightest Part 23 airplanes that it's an unsafe excercise. But it's what you must do if you want to fly one.

Back when we were 16 me and my buddy hot rodder Bought a couple of Eiper Quicksilvers for $2500 (lot of money to us). It came with an instruction manual on assembly and flying. With no flying experience except for jumping off the roof with various contraptions growing up, we taught ourselves to fly.
 
Back when we were 16 me and my buddy hot rodder Bought a couple of Eiper Quicksilvers for $2500 (lot of money to us). It came with an instruction manual on assembly and flying. With no flying experience except for jumping off the roof with various contraptions growing up, we taught ourselves to fly.

I think it's probably easier to do that if you have no flying experience at all, and therefore no habits or expectations about how the aircraft is going to handle.

-Rich
 
Thanks for all the input. Buying new wouldn't be an issue if shipping wasn't as much as the purchase price. Got put in touch with an outfit here which seems to be pretty squared away. They have a few leads on used machines as well. My only issue now is that the winds might limit the flying opportunities. Good for sailing though. :D
 
Thanks for all the input. Buying new wouldn't be an issue if shipping wasn't as much as the purchase price. Got put in touch with an outfit here which seems to be pretty squared away. They have a few leads on used machines as well. My only issue now is that the winds might limit the flying opportunities. Good for sailing though. :D
Check out the crosswind capabilites of the Challenger, you will be surprised.

Challenger Ultralight
SINGLE-SEAT ULTRALIGHT
31.5 ft wingspan
Great on floats and for soaring
265 lb. payload
Up to 1,000 fpm climb
25 mph cross-wind capability
55-80 mph cruise speed
Qualifies for Part 103 with Hirth F-33 or ...
51% kit for Experimental - Amateur-Built
Can be flown with Sport Pilot Permit
Qualifies as Light Sport Aircraft
Quick-build kits from $9,215 to $12,965 ex engine/prop
Power packs for Hirth F-33, Rotax 447/503/582, HKS 700E
Available via sub-kits - start with a tail for about a grand!
 
Check out the crosswind capabilites of the Challenger, you will be surprised.

Challenger Ultralight
SINGLE-SEAT ULTRALIGHT
31.5 ft wingspan
Great on floats and for soaring
265 lb. payload
Up to 1,000 fpm climb
25 mph cross-wind capability
55-80 mph cruise speed
Qualifies for Part 103 with Hirth F-33 or ...
51% kit for Experimental - Amateur-Built
Can be flown with Sport Pilot Permit
Qualifies as Light Sport Aircraft
Quick-build kits from $9,215 to $12,965 ex engine/prop
Power packs for Hirth F-33, Rotax 447/503/582, HKS 700E
Available via sub-kits - start with a tail for about a grand!

X-wind capability isn't much an issue unless you are restricted to a runway. I'll be operating as in the old days from a field...I'll just head into the wind.
 
By the way, I recommend watching this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0-PP_7VBNQg
It's the lead in the series of 12 videos, each focusing on a specific type. Follow to the next video through the link the description of each video.
 
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From a visit to the 20,000 sq ft ultralight hangar at Sullivan, IL, and seeing about 30 ultralights and ultra-like ultralights (registered because overweight), and hanging around with ultralight pilots for the last three years (where are those guys on this forum? -- Illinois around St. Louis, MO, has a very healthy group of ultralight flyers), I've come away with the following ideas about the type of Ultralight I want to fly:

Most important -- it should be the same as a half dozen others in the area so that we can trade information about keeping them flying. A/P mechanics do not/will not work on ultralights. You've got to do it yourself.

Three axis control is important to me -- so I'm going to go with a Kolb, CGS Hawk, or Challenger.
 
From a visit to the 20,000 sq ft ultralight hangar at Sullivan, IL, and seeing about 30 ultralights and ultra-like ultralights (registered because overweight), and hanging around with ultralight pilots for the last three years (where are those guys on this forum? -- Illinois around St. Louis, MO, has a very healthy group of ultralight flyers), I've come away with the following ideas about the type of Ultralight I want to fly:

Most important -- it should be the same as a half dozen others in the area so that we can trade information about keeping them flying. A/P mechanics do not/will not work on ultralights. You've got to do it yourself.

Three axis control is important to me -- so I'm going to go with a Kolb, CGS Hawk, or Challenger.

Me as well. Really liking what I'm learning about Kolb
 
From a visit to the 20,000 sq ft ultralight hangar at Sullivan, IL, and seeing about 30 ultralights and ultra-like ultralights (registered because overweight), and hanging around with ultralight pilots for the last three years (where are those guys on this forum? -- Illinois around St. Louis, MO, has a very healthy group of ultralight flyers), I've come away with the following ideas about the type of Ultralight I want to fly:

Most important -- it should be the same as a half dozen others in the area so that we can trade information about keeping them flying. A/P mechanics do not/will not work on ultralights. You've got to do it yourself.

Three axis control is important to me -- so I'm going to go with a Kolb, CGS Hawk, or Challenger.
St Louis was an early center having several active fields even in the 70s, mostly in Illinois because of the inherent safety of the deep grasses in the flood plain which was landable everywhere after cuttings. We did do cross countries to Lake of the Ozarks and Tablerock region, though it requires ground support who were typically towing boats and such. If I did an ultralight in St Louis again, it would be on amphibs or even straight floats.
 
I trained people in the Quicksilver MXII and my favorite was the
MXL. Got to fly a Kolb some also. Really fun, just get some proper
training.
Dave
 
Don't discount trikes as a holiday option.

They are a hoot.

The object is to fly - it does not matter what the object is.

Here's mine ...

IMG_0319-1.jpg


1DSC01642Small-1.jpg


1DSC01205Medium.jpg


1DSC00046Large.jpg
 
I sure hope that Optifuel gauge is registering 12.2 pounds an hour and not 12.2 gallons an hour..:dunno:

upon futher review................. it might be litres per hour.:dunno:
 
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