Ugh, can't stick my landings

Irish_Armada

Irish_Armada

Pre-takeoff checklist
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Irish Armada
So I’m at around 11 hours and having more trouble than I thought I would nailing the touchdown. At this point, my pattern flying seems okay, my descent from downwind to base to final is getting better, I’m lining up consistently on the centerline, I’m at the right speed, etc. So up to that point in the landing process, I’m feeling pretty good. It’s during the final roundout/flare where I keep screwing it all up. When I’m where I need to be over the numbers, my instructor will tell me to bring the throttle smoothly back to idle while starting the roundout. Then things go to hell – either I’m flaring too early, or not transitioning smoothly enough from descent to no-descent, or I’m getting tossed upward by the ground effect, or a combination of everything. I really can’t figure it out. I think I’m having trouble visualizing how high I am off the ground and thus struggling to determine when I really need to pull back on the yoke hard to keep from striking the prop, and when I just need to pull it partially back so that I don’t float off the ground effect. Anyways, this 5 second period is proving to be difficult and is a bump in the learning curve that I’m not getting over. In fact, I dropped us a good 5 feet to the ground on one of our landings last night from flaring too high, which was “entertaining.” Anyone mind sharing what your step-by-step looks like for this part of the landing process? I’m in a 172 by the way. Thanks.
 
How far down the runway are you looking during this phase? Looking farther down the runway will help you get a more consistent sight picture for where you should be.
 
+2 to Chis/Ben

Also, keep in mind that at 11 hours your landings aren't going to be very consistent. You have much to learn yet. Embrace it. Landing is one of the more difficult maneuvers in flying to do to your personal standards. For me, I'm unhappy unless every landing is a greaser. At 1700 hours, I have yet to accomplish this feat. Don't feel badly if, at 11 hours, you are also unable.
 
I am trying to look farther down the runway like my instructor has advised. I think maybe I'm not understanding WHAT the plane is supposed to do during this 5 second period. Is the idea that the initial roundout is to simply level the plane off and hold it there, waiting for the ground effect to go away? And then as all that goes away, start pulling back more for the flare? I mean, I've watched a million landings before but the feel of it from the cockpit is proving to be sort of counter-intuitive...
 
Basically you get the plane into a nose-up attitude, and as the airspeed bleeds off the plane will stick itself to the ground.

If you look at me doing a landing on a normal (i.e. not-gusty) day, my controls are pretty well rock solid during the landing. No jerking around. Just establish the pitch attitude, leave it there, let the plane land itself.

If you're ballooning up, then you pulled back too far for the airspeed you have. So you may need to continue pulling back slowly as your airspeed bleeds off. Insufficient nose-up will result in a nosewheel landing.
 
Irish_Armada said:
I am trying to look farther down the runway like my instructor has advised. I think maybe I'm not understanding WHAT the plane is supposed to do during this 5 second period. Is the idea that the initial roundout is to simply level the plane off and hold it there, waiting for the ground effect to go away? And then as all that goes away, start pulling back more for the flare? I mean, I've watched a million landings before but the feel of it from the cockpit is proving to be sort of counter-intuitive...
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The plane is supposed to stop flying during this phase. Your job is to get it close enough to the ground and in a configuration such that it doesn't end up as a ball of twisted metal when it does stop flying. For the most part 'level' is sufficient, but slightly nose-up is preferred as it helps bleed off speed a little faster and adds a little protection for the prop (which you've already mentioned).

Sounds like you're overthinking it a little bit. It's not as complicated as some people like to think. Seriously - you're just trying to get the airplane in an approvable configuration for when it stops flying. If you are on your speeds like you should be, I promise, the plane WILL stop flying - you don't have to do anything to make that happen - let physics do its thang.
 
Good landings are more art than science, but good airspeed control will help. Check to see how your seat is positioned as well, sitting too high or too low makes a difference. My son is working on his PPL and landings were kicking his butt, then one day the light went on and magically he is making acceptable landings. :D With 11 hours please don't expect glassy smooth touchdowns everytime, it's something to strive for, but it takes a lot of practice and a little luck for real nice landings. ;)
 
N747JB said:
With 11 hours please don't expect glassy smooth touchdowns everytime, it's something to strive for, but it takes a lot of practice and a little luck for real nice landings. ;)
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Precisely. As I said, I aim for every landing being a greaser. It just doesn't happen. Tony once told me that my goal was unreasonable. He is absolutely correct, but it's still my goal. :)

The funny thing is, I can feel like I completely botched up a landing, and my passengers usually think it was great (the human ones, not the dogs). Remember, most commercial airliners give us a very low bar that we need to exceed in order to keep passengers happy.
 
Also, unless you're flying something other than a typical trainer, the chances of a prop strike happening during a normal landing are very small. Even if you land flat, the prop won't come anywhere close to the ground. So get that out of your head. That fear may be one of the things contributing to your anxiety.
 
First, forget about all that crap you wrote about. It will all take care of itself if you do the following.

Tell your instructor you want to practice by flying the length of the runway in landing attitude and configuration with the wheels approximately 12" from the runway, aligned with the centerline and just enough airspeed to remain airborne. You'll quickly learn the amount of power necessary to make it happen, and the corrections necessary to track the centerline. As you near the end of the runway, make a normal go-around and do it again. After two-three laps, establish the same position and once stabilized, reduce power slightly. It will land perfectly and you will then wonder what all the fuss was about.

Irish_Armada said:
So I’m at around 11 hours and having more trouble than I thought I would nailing the touchdown. At this point, my pattern flying seems okay, my descent from downwind to base to final is getting better, I’m lining up consistently on the centerline, I’m at the right speed, etc. So up to that point in the landing process, I’m feeling pretty good. It’s during the final roundout/flare where I keep screwing it all up. When I’m where I need to be over the numbers, my instructor will tell me to bring the throttle smoothly back to idle while starting the roundout. Then things go to hell – either I’m flaring too early, or not transitioning smoothly enough from descent to no-descent, or I’m getting tossed upward by the ground effect, or a combination of everything. I really can’t figure it out. I think I’m having trouble visualizing how high I am off the ground and thus struggling to determine when I really need to pull back on the yoke hard to keep from striking the prop, and when I just need to pull it partially back so that I don’t float off the ground effect. Anyways, this 5 second period is proving to be difficult and is a bump in the learning curve that I’m not getting over. In fact, I dropped us a good 5 feet to the ground on one of our landings last night from flaring too high, which was “entertaining.” Anyone mind sharing what your step-by-step looks like for this part of the landing process? I’m in a 172 by the way. Thanks.
Click to expand...
 
Irish_Armada said:
I am trying to look farther down the runway like my instructor has advised. I think maybe I'm not understanding WHAT the plane is supposed to do during this 5 second period. Is the idea that the initial roundout is to simply level the plane off and hold it there, waiting for the ground effect to go away? And then as all that goes away, start pulling back more for the flare? I mean, I've watched a million landings before but the feel of it from the cockpit is proving to be sort of counter-intuitive...
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How much practice do you have with stalls?

Try practicing power-off stalls (at altitude) in the landing configuration (i'm guessing you are using 20 deg flaps)

This drill should help you.

Start a descent using your normal final approach power setting, flap setting and airspeed. Whatever your instructor has specified .. we'll go with 1500 rpm, 65 knots and 20 degrees flaps.

Once you are stabilized (throttle is set and you are trimmed and holding 65kts), pick an altitude 1-200 feet below you that will simulate the runway. When you reach about 10 feet above that altitude, pull all the power off, and use back pressure on the yoke to maintain your target altitude (the runway). Keep maintaining that altitude until the airplane reaches a full stall, then recover.

Practice this drill until you can maintain the altitude precisely every time, right up to the stall break. You now have a feel for the backpressure required in the flare.

Now to land, just repeat the above drill. When you cross the threshold about 10feet, pull power and stop your descent, and maintain that smooth increase of backpressure to keep the airplane flying just off the runway until you are nearing (about 5-10kts above) stall, then stop increasing backpressure (but continue to hold what you got) and the airplane will settle down to the runway on its own.

If you practice the power-off stalls in the landing configuration a bunch, you'll know exactly what the airplane feels like as it is approaching stall speed, so you can know when to set it down by feel, instead of trying to look at the airspeed guage while you are flaring etc..
 
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Ted DuPuis said:
Basically you get the plane into a nose-up attitude, and as the airspeed bleeds off the plane will stick itself to the ground.

If you're ballooning up, then you pulled back too far for the airspeed you have. So you may need to continue pulling back slowly as your airspeed bleeds off. Insufficient nose-up will result in a nosewheel landing.
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:thumbsup::thumbsup:Yup!!
 
wabower said:
First, forget about all that crap you wrote about. It will all take care of itself if you do the following.

Tell your instructor you want to practice by flying the length of the runway in landing attitude and configuration with the wheels approximately 12" from the runway, aligned with the centerline and just enough airspeed to remain airborne. You'll quickly learn the amount of power necessary to make it happen, and the corrections necessary to track the centerline. As you near the end of the runway, make a normal go-around and do it again. After two-three laps, establish the same position and once stabilized, reduce power slightly. It will land perfectly and you will then wonder what all the fuss was about.
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This.

As soon as a pilot figures out that landing is level slow flight with a precise heading, it all comes together.
 
Dang Ted, I must have went to the wrong school. I tell my boss anything you can walk away from is a good landing. If you can still use the plane it is a great landing.:rofl:
Irish, like some have said you only have 11 hours, chill out and enjoy the training. You will get better.
 
A few things I think will help -

1) Sit at the end of the runway for a minute and do nothing but stare at the runway shape and sight picture. Burn this image into your brain. This is what you need to re-establish on landing. The lower you are, the more the runway will look like a flattened trapezoid. Burn this shape into your brain, it will tell you how high you are. Ever flown a flight sim? This shape change is all you have, and it works great.

2) Don't think of a landing as "flaring", as if some super critically-timed elevator movement is needed. How do you approach a curb when parking a car? Do you approach it sharply and then cut the wheel hard, or do you smoothly start turning the wheel as you approach the curb at a shallow angle, reducing the angle the closer you get? Same with landing. Think of the landing as rounding out smoothly and keeping the yoke continually coming back and trying to hold it off....no "flare". It will help if you make a more shallow roundout at a higher altitude above ground effect than waiting to make a sharp pull and level-off once in ground effect.

3) FEEL in the yoke how close you are to stalling. This is also related to the yoke POSITION. If you get stuck too high, and are fairly close to stalling, just add a slight bit of power, hold the yoke steady, and let the plane settle to the runway. KEEP FLYING IT. No need to let it stall and slam in...be the pilot, be in control. You always HAVE control. If you're worried about stalling and slamming in, this might be causing you apprehension, which might distract you from the sight picture and feel/position of the yoke.

4) Don't stare or focus on anything in particular when rounding out and feeling for the runway. Let your eyes relax and just sorta glaze over and mostly pay attention to the vague shape of the runway and how it's changing as you get lower.

5) Relax, you'll get it.

And...try some power-off landings!! A 172 has such a shallow glide with power off, that it's just not needed. You are actually destabilizing the landing a little as you pull the power off, because you must adjust for the increased descent rate created by pulling power. Why not try some power-off approaches with your instructor and see if it simplifies things for you. It will probably make ballooning less likely, and you won't have to screw with the damn power (which also changes your trim condition) during these critical moments as you try to set the plane down smoothly. How fast are you approaching? 60kts is plenty. Many fly min. 65 kts, which is more like 1.4VSo than 1.3. Extra speed as you enter ground effect will make your life harder.
​
 
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ronnieh said:
Dang Ted, I must have went to the wrong school. I tell my boss anything you can walk away from is a good landing. If you can still use the plane it is a great landing.:rofl:
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While you are correct, I aim higher since I fly lower than you turboprop jocks. ;)
 
Until the speed begins to bleed off, when you pull back on the yoke (or stick), the plane will continue to rotate, sometimes enough to start climbing. Try pulling back on the yoke a little to start the flair, then release a bit of the pressure. Repeat as necessary to keep the plane a few feet off the runway until i's going so slow, it has to land.

After you've had enough practice, you'll get the feel for how much back pressure is necessary without having to go through the pull-relax-pull-relax steps.
 
Awesome, thanks for the feedback everyone! I'm not stressing about it, I just thought maybe I was missing something fundamental. Will let you know how it goes next time around.
 
Ted DuPuis said:
Remember, most commercial airliners give us a very low bar that we need to exceed in order to keep passengers happy.
Click to expand...

My first commercial flight after starting and completing Private Pilot training was Southwest to Midway. I was seated just forward of the wing and I was shocked and how fast and rough that touchdown felt! Not to mention the fact that the whole thing shudders and gets real loud when lots of braking and thrust reverse is applied. A light airplane landing is a lot quieter and calmer.
 
Irish_Armada said:
I am trying to look farther down the runway like my instructor has advised. I think maybe I'm not understanding WHAT the plane is supposed to do during this 5 second period. Is the idea that the initial roundout is to simply level the plane off and hold it there, waiting for the ground effect to go away? And then as all that goes away, start pulling back more for the flare? I mean, I've watched a million landings before but the feel of it from the cockpit is proving to be sort of counter-intuitive...
Click to expand...

Ground effect doesn't go away...it becomes more effective as you near the runway surface. From the Pilot's Handbook of Aeronautical Knowledge:

"In order for ground effect to be of significant magnitude, the wing must be quite close to the ground. One of the direct results of ground effect is the variation of induced drag with wing height above the ground at a constant CL. When the wing is at a height equal to its span, the reduction in induced drag is only 1.4 percent. However, when the wing is at a height equal to one-fourth its span, the reduction in induced drag is 23.5 percent and, when the wing is at a height equal to one-tenth its span, the reduction in induced drag is 47.6 percent. Thus, a large reduction in induced drag will take place only when the wing is very close to the ground. Because of this variation, ground effect is most usually recognized during the liftoff for takeoff or just prior to touchdown when landing."


My mantra is "Good landings are slow landings." Spend some time down at the low speed end of the airspeed indicator.

Bob Gardner
 
Ted DuPuis said:
+2 to Chis/Ben

Also, keep in mind that at 11 hours your landings aren't going to be very consistent. You have much to learn yet. Embrace it. Landing is one of the more difficult maneuvers in flying to do to your personal standards. For me, I'm unhappy unless every landing is a greaser. At 1700 hours, I have yet to accomplish this feat. Don't feel badly if, at 11 hours, you are also unable.
Click to expand...

Yeah, consistent landings involve a lot of physical motor skills. Repetition is the only way to learn those. Sure you'll get all kinds of great litte tips and tricks from your instructor and other pilots but practice, practice, practice to put them all together. When you think about yaw in your head your legs should want to shift and your forearms differently for bank and pitch. Also there is KNOWING your airplane. How it behaves in different situations. You can read the POH till your blue in the face and aerodynamics its all great background knowledge but landing happens so fast it has to become second nature to anticipate what the airplane will do after a given input (whether its you on the controls or the wind outside). You will get better each and everytime you fly but don't expect to master the hardest part of flying in the first part of your training.

<---<^>--->
 
And like BobMRG says a good landing is a slow landing. You want to be right on your approach speed which is probably just a few kts higher than your stall speed. (1.3VS0 or something like that its ) Getting your groundspeed and altitude down as low as possible BEFORE touchingdown is the name of the game.

<---<^>--->
 
I remember having similar frustration at around the 11 hour mark. Keep grinding away at it and eventually you'll stop thinking about landing the airplane and start landing the airplane.

For me, it took sufficient repetition until satisfying all of the necessary constraints (energy management, glideslope, touchdown spot, centerline, radio calls, etc) became automatic. When you're starting out, it feels like everything happens quickly because you don't have the mental bandwidth to juggle everything. After a while, however, time will stretch out a bit and things will get easier. Just keep at it.

BTW, welcome to PoA!
 
Instead of trying to land try to keep the plane in the air. Of course not at 50 or 100 feet but during the final stage you're talking about. Keep flying as you pull back power slowly and let it touch down.... and don't panic about the prop hitting.
 
11.7 hours in the log before I was cut loose to solo. Just under 350 hours in the log now. Are my landings perfect? No way. Now and then there's a squeaker, but some are more like arrivals that show up on local seismographs. But I haven't bent anything (yet). There's been a bunch of great advice above. The key thing is to relax, it will come to you and then you'll wonder what the fuss was all about. It will click. Then you get to do the fun stuff like crosswind landings. Far more entertaining. :D
 
I heard all the tips about looking down the runway. And it did not help. My landings were BAD.

What "fixed" me is my instructor getting upset that I cannot land properly, and said "if you are not going to fly the plane, I will" and took controls for a landing. During that landing, I was able to observe and feel what he's doing, plus I kind of looked straight at the runway right in front of the plane. That is what gave me a proper feel for landing. I am able to flare and touchdown pretty well.

My "to do" right now is my approach speeds. Sometimes I am a bit too high, but last XC I did, I heard stall horn before I reached the runway. Good thing I was able to recover pretty fast, but that was a scary moment.

That method did work for me, but may not work for 99.9% of pilots out there. Just a fair warning.
 
Meanee said:
My "to do" right now is my approach speeds. Sometimes I am a bit too high, but last XC I did, I heard stall horn before I reached the runway. Good thing I was able to recover pretty fast, but that was a scary moment.
Click to expand...

Keep in mind the stall horn is set for some percentage above actual stall. So often on windy, gusty days you'll hear it chirp from time to time.

If you have a good feel for the airplane, you won't need no steekin horn.
 
Ted DuPuis said:
+2 to Chis/Ben

Also, keep in mind that at 11 hours your landings aren't going to be very consistent. You have much to learn yet. Embrace it. Landing is one of the more difficult maneuvers in flying to do to your personal standards. For me, I'm unhappy unless every landing is a greaser. At 1700 hours, I have yet to accomplish this feat. Don't feel badly if, at 11 hours, you are also unable.
Click to expand...

1 greaser is luck
2 greasers is damn lucky
3 greasers is prevarication.

And greasers are not necessarily what you want on short or slippery runways.

Just keep working at it - it's like a golf swing or a tennis serve - you keep doing it over and over getting less "wrong" all the time. Eventually you're consistently "ok" and have occasional moments of greatness and rare moments of "badness". When you get hundreds or thousands of landings, then you're generally good with more frequent moments of greatness and very rare moments of "badness".

Oh, and hearing the stall horn at a few feet above the runway is generally good (unless major gusty winds). Hearing it more than 10 feet above the runway is generally bad.
 
dmccormack said:
Keep in mind the stall horn is set for some percentage above actual stall. So often on windy, gusty days you'll hear it chirp from time to time.

If you have a good feel for the airplane, you won't need no steekin horn.
Click to expand...

Oh, I am aware of that. To me, stall horn sound was more like "You better do SOMETHING before bad things start to happen"

While it may be ok at altitude, but when you are 30 feet from the ground, not so much.
 
RoscoeT said:
And...try some power-off landings!! A 172 has such a shallow glide with power off, that it's just not needed. You are actually destabilizing the landing a little as you pull the power off, because you must adjust for the increased descent rate created by pulling power. Why not try some power-off approaches with your instructor and see if it simplifies things for you. It will probably make ballooning less likely, and you won't have to screw with the damn power (which also changes your trim condition) during these critical moments as you try to set the plane down smoothly. How fast are you approaching? 60kts is plenty. Many fly min. 65 kts, which is more like 1.4VSo than 1.3. Extra speed as you enter ground effect will make your life harder.
Click to expand...
This.

I'm no instructor, but I am a fairly recent PPL. I also trained in a 172. My instructor taught power-off landings first. When you don't have the option to use power, you learn to glide it on and use flaps to accomplish what you want. Fly the wing.

I didn't really utilize power on landings, except for shortfields, until I did my high performance checkout. Now I do them almost exclusively. But learning power-off as the first and default landing technique is powerful.
 
A couple observations. Nobody can stick their landings every time. Not even the pilot of the Alaska Airlines "Mad Dog" that I flew in on last spring.

You don't need a stall horn. My plane doesn't have one. Never learned on one. If you nail your airspeed down to where you round off, get your eyes off the panel and on the runway, and then know how much time and energy you have to touch down, you'll do fine without one. I know that after I round out, I have right around 5 seconds before the plane stops flying.
 
kgruber said:
What do you mean "stick" a landing? Never heard that term. Doesn't sound good.
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"Stick" a landing is what a pilot needs to do on a 600' runway in a plane that needs 550' to get stopped.:yikes::yikes:;)
 
kgruber said:
What do you mean "stick" a landing? Never heard that term. Doesn't sound good.
Click to expand...

Ha, maybe you're right. I think I brought that term over from snowboarding where you stick a landing when you land perfectly straight after a trick off of a jump. So kind of analogous! ... :D
 
Meanee said:
I heard all the tips about looking down the runway. And it did not help. My landings were BAD.

What "fixed" me is my instructor getting upset that I cannot land properly, and said "if you are not going to fly the plane, I will" and took controls for a landing. During that landing, I was able to observe and feel what he's doing, plus I kind of looked straight at the runway right in front of the plane. That is what gave me a proper feel for landing. I am able to flare and touchdown pretty well.

My "to do" right now is my approach speeds. Sometimes I am a bit too high, but last XC I did, I heard stall horn before I reached the runway. Good thing I was able to recover pretty fast, but that was a scary moment.

That method did work for me, but may not work for 99.9% of pilots out there. Just a fair warning.
Click to expand...

I like to hear the stall warning just before touchdown.

Bob Gardner
 
wabower said:
First, forget about all that crap you wrote about. It will all take care of itself if you do the following.

Tell your instructor you want to practice by flying the length of the runway in landing attitude and configuration with the wheels approximately 12" from the runway, aligned with the centerline and just enough airspeed to remain airborne. You'll quickly learn the amount of power necessary to make it happen, and the corrections necessary to track the centerline. As you near the end of the runway, make a normal go-around and do it again. After two-three laps, establish the same position and once stabilized, reduce power slightly. It will land perfectly and you will then wonder what all the fuss was about.
Click to expand...


Quote for truth
 
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