Types of XC logbook entries

Discussion in 'Pilot Training' started by Josh Whitman, Oct 19, 2018.

  1. Josh Whitman

    Josh Whitman Filing Flight Plan

    Joined:
    Sep 20, 2018
    Messages:
    4
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Josh Whitman
    I've read so many different things logging XC time that all I know for sure is that I'm making myself more confused than necessary.

    First, my situation. I am a student pilot training part 61 for my private pilot certificate. I then intend to complete a part 141 instrument course and 141 commercial. I ultimately have my sights on the airlines and will likely instruct at my school which sometimes pays for CFI and CFII until I can get a FO spot with a regional or possibly look at something 135.

    Here is where I get confused:

    14 CFR 61.1(b)(3)(i):
    I understand that to be the definition of what is sometimes referred to as "Basic Cross Country". It's a broad definition and to my understanding, as long as I navigate to a landing point other than my departure point (Doesn't even need to be an airport for that matter) I can log the time in the XC column. If I take off from KCCO and navigate to and land at KLGC (23.7NM) the flight can be logged as XC according to the above.

    Question 1: If I do a touch and go at KLGC, and then spend an hour doing maneuvers before returning to KCCO does the entire flight go in the XC column or just the portion where I navigated from KCCO to KLGC. I've seen answers saying yes and no.

    14 CFR 61.1(b)(3)(ii):
    Obviously the flight from KCCO to KLGC would not qualify for this definition of XC and obviously I need to be keeping track of flights that do fit this requirement as I need them to meet the aeronautical experience requirements of the Private Pilot Certificate. I use an LogTen Pro and currently I log all flights that fit the "Basic Cross Country" definition. I then have an indicator on all flight logs that meet the aeronautical experience requirements definition of XC. This allows me to know that right now I have 21.2 hours of "Basic cross country" flights and 3.7 hours of which were flights that included a landing at an airport more than 50 NM from the point of departure.

    Question 2: I am logging it like this because I've seen that not logging basic XC can hurt you down the road when an application wants to know basic XC time regardless of distance (insurance, rentals, some part 135 jobs, ect). When I print out my logbook the basic XC will show in the cross country column, but I can also print out a separate log that shows just the XC > 50M flights and that total as well. Is there an issue with the way I'm logging it? Am I creating more trouble now than I think I am saving in the future?

    One article that I'm following is the AOPA article titled "Logging Cross-Country Time" (I would post a link bit I the forum says I'm too green for that! :D)
     
  2. Salty

    Salty En-Route

    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2016
    Messages:
    2,585
    Location:
    FL
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Salty
    I wouldn’t log any flight that you didn’t land 50 nm away as cross country. Doesn’t matter if you flew in circles for 500 miles. The point is to demonstrate you dealt with weather, fuel management, and airspace issues you wouldn’t have if you went in circles 10 miles from home.
     
  3. Greg Bockelman

    Greg Bockelman Administrator Management Council Member

    Joined:
    Feb 23, 2005
    Messages:
    9,363
    Location:
    Yona (Say Joan ya), Guam
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Greg Bockelman
    You can do it Salty’s way but you might short change yourself down the road. Make two cross country columns in your logbook. One for cross countries greater than 50 miles and one for 50 or less. That way, when you go for your ATP, you might not have to worry about if you have enough XC time.
     
    EppyGA likes this.
  4. MTWings

    MTWings Pre-Flight

    Joined:
    Oct 7, 2018
    Messages:
    31
    Location:
    Montana
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    MTWings
    Or just log the xc like the FAR says from the definition of XC and for those XC over 50nm just put an asterisk or some kind of marking next to the entry so you can easily come back later and total the XC for adding a rating.
     
  5. Salty

    Salty En-Route

    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2016
    Messages:
    2,585
    Location:
    FL
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Salty
    I don’t disagree with this, but I also don’t understand why you wouldn’t fly to another airport anyway and gain that experience.
     
  6. kath

    kath Line Up and Wait

    Joined:
    Feb 27, 2005
    Messages:
    668
    Location:
    Anchorage, AK
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Katherine
    I only log things >50 NM as XC, and whenever IACRA time rolls around, those are the only XC's that I count in those totals.
    But there's nothing stopping you from logging the little guys as well, using some kind of distinguisher (asterisk, separate column, etc.) as you like.

    Since IACRA also wants to know things like "solo time", if there's not a column for that in your logbook, I recommend getting in the habit of marking some kind of distinguisher for any flight that is solo, as opposed to with passengers. (For instance, I write "solo" in the remarks.)

    I've never encountered an insurance company that cared about XC time in any way. Usually they are only interested in things like total hours and time in make/model. Likewise with rentals; never had anyone ask for the XC column or have some kind of minimum.

    Now, I don't have experience with ATP or 135, so can't speak to the utility of "little XC's" for that... but since a nice >50 NM XC is my idea of a "fun Saturday", I don't sweat it.
     
  7. Somedudeintn

    Somedudeintn Cleared for Takeoff

    Joined:
    May 12, 2014
    Messages:
    1,041
    Location:
    Knoxville, Tn
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Wayne F
    This is one thing I like about a digital logbook. MyFlightbook has an option to add cross country less than 50nm. My paper logbook only totals up the 50nm cross countries.
     
  8. BrianNC

    BrianNC Pattern Altitude

    Joined:
    Feb 2, 2009
    Messages:
    1,785
    Location:
    Atlanta
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    BrianATL
    This is what I do. For a 'point to point' x country but not over 50NM I just put a little 'PTP' beside the entry under the x country column.
     
  9. BrianNC

    BrianNC Pattern Altitude

    Joined:
    Feb 2, 2009
    Messages:
    1,785
    Location:
    Atlanta
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    BrianATL
    Whether it's >50nm x country or a point to point, I have always logged the entire time. As a matter of fact, when practicing for my recent commercial check ride I would make it a point to land at another airport so I could at least count the time as point to point x country.
     
  10. jaybee

    jaybee Cleared for Takeoff

    Joined:
    Jan 22, 2012
    Messages:
    1,135
    Location:
    sometimes Cocoa, FL
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    jaybee
    For the purposes of obtaining the experience requirements of an ATP you don't even need to land for it to count as XC...

    Just throwing that out there you know to simplify things... j/k

    If you use a digital log book what I did was just logged all XC as XC, then made yes/no columns for whether it qualified for particular categories of XC such as 25nm for Helicopter, 50nm for Airplane, 50nm but no landing for ATP( if my foggy memory is right you need to land for it to count towards a 135 job...), etc, etc
     
  11. Josh Whitman

    Josh Whitman Filing Flight Plan

    Joined:
    Sep 20, 2018
    Messages:
    4
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Josh Whitman
    That actually exactly what I'm doing. I have two toggles one for "XC > 50 NM" and another for "XC > 50 NM w/LDG". I log all XC and then check none, one or both boxes as appropriate. LogTen lets me run a report of all flights that have those checked.

    One thing I remember hearing somewhere is that if you go to an interview and they don't like the way you made your entries, they will cross the entire entry out and deduct it from your totals. At the same time I've heard people say they've gone to interviews with nice totaled log books professionally printed and an interviewer not even open it or at least not scrutinize it for much more than a minute (And get the job). Those seem like two wildly differing experiences on both sides of the spectrum where there is more likely a much more common middle ground.
     
  12. Greg Bockelman

    Greg Bockelman Administrator Management Council Member

    Joined:
    Feb 23, 2005
    Messages:
    9,363
    Location:
    Yona (Say Joan ya), Guam
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Greg Bockelman
    If they physically cross out an entry in my logbook, interview over. They have no right to do that.

    They are within their rights to not count it, however.
     
    TCABM and Somedudeintn like this.
  13. MTWings

    MTWings Pre-Flight

    Joined:
    Oct 7, 2018
    Messages:
    31
    Location:
    Montana
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    MTWings
    Who crosses out entires??
     
  14. Greg Bockelman

    Greg Bockelman Administrator Management Council Member

    Joined:
    Feb 23, 2005
    Messages:
    9,363
    Location:
    Yona (Say Joan ya), Guam
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Greg Bockelman
    I don’t know. I was responding to Josh’s post right above mine.
     
  15. TommyG

    TommyG Cleared for Takeoff

    Joined:
    Oct 24, 2011
    Messages:
    1,206
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Tom
    Just stick to 50nm.
     
  16. Josh Whitman

    Josh Whitman Filing Flight Plan

    Joined:
    Sep 20, 2018
    Messages:
    4
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Josh Whitman
    Yea I thought it sounded a bit exaggerated.
     
  17. Greg Bockelman

    Greg Bockelman Administrator Management Council Member

    Joined:
    Feb 23, 2005
    Messages:
    9,363
    Location:
    Yona (Say Joan ya), Guam
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Greg Bockelman
    Or not. Those less than 50 mile cross countries can make a difference when working towards the ATP.

    Of course, I am not advocating doing a bunch os short cross countries just to build time. That is just silly. But there is absolutely no reason not to count the short ones if you are making the trip anyway.
     
    jaybee and BrianNC like this.
  18. GreatLakesFlying

    GreatLakesFlying Pre-takeoff checklist

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2018
    Messages:
    154
    Location:
    Chicago, IL
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Leo
    FWIW, Gleim logbooks have two columns for xc: one for any kind of xc, and a second for those > 50 NM. Screen Shot 2018-10-19 at 22.05.36.png
     
  19. Josh Whitman

    Josh Whitman Filing Flight Plan

    Joined:
    Sep 20, 2018
    Messages:
    4
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Josh Whitman
    That's exactly what I need for my hardcopy logbook! I guess I should consider it now before I get too many logs.
    Thank you everyone. I was amazed at the number of replies I got, so I am certainly glad I joined this forum.
     
    woodchucker likes this.
  20. midlifeflyer

    midlifeflyer Final Approach

    Joined:
    May 25, 2006
    Messages:
    8,535
    Location:
    Chapel Hill NC
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Mark
    The short ones can make a difference for that first Part 135 job. I think Part 135 qualifications are the only place the FAA uses logged cross countries of 50 no or less.

    Personally, one if the things my first CFI did helped with this. For local flights, he logged "AAA LOCAL" rather than "AAA - AAA." It was a habit I continued. Not too much help for paper, but when I moved to electronic backup almost 25 years ago, counting all cross country flights became as simple as querying for flights in which "local" did not appear,
     
    Last edited: Oct 20, 2018
  21. midlifeflyer

    midlifeflyer Final Approach

    Joined:
    May 25, 2006
    Messages:
    8,535
    Location:
    Chapel Hill NC
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Mark
    Most paper logbooks have a spare column or two.
     
  22. Hank S

    Hank S En-Route

    Joined:
    Jul 3, 2013
    Messages:
    4,239
    Location:
    Eclectic, AL
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Hank
    This is what I use, but without the decimals (that's what the dividing line is for . . . . ). Works great, the first one lasted about 700 hours. My newest one has a couple more columns, too but retained two blank columns on the left page, one of which I use to record Time in Type for insurance.

    I keep a running list in a spreadsheet of every plane I fly, and built a section that tracks my total time every year by aircraft so that I have the totals for my insurance company. It's all part of a hefty spreadsheet that I started to track the places I've lived, then added addresses, states visited (with many columns for with family, alone, business, driving, airlines and flying myself, etc.), so adding my various flight activities was pretty simple.
     
  23. m1marin

    m1marin Filing Flight Plan

    Joined:
    Oct 20, 2018
    Messages:
    1
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Mark
    HI - hope I'm not threadjacking. I always wondered whether PIC-XC time as a student pilot counts for meeting the criteria of (i)(A) below for a future instrument rating. I would assume so because a student pilot has to have a student pilot certificate in order to solo. A student pilot certificate is still a type of pilot certificate. Right?

    Cross-country time means -
    (i) Except as provided in paragraphs (ii) through (vi) of this definition, time acquired during flight -
    (A) Conducted by a person who holds a pilot certificate;
    (B) Conducted in an aircraft;
    (C) That includes a landing at a point other than the point of departure; and
    (D) That involves the use of dead reckoning, pilotage, electronic navigation aids, radio aids, or other navigation systems to navigate to the landing point.​
     
  24. Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe

    Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe Touchdown! Greaser!

    Joined:
    Jun 7, 2008
    Messages:
    10,664
    Location:
    DXO124009
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Light and Sporty Guy
    Two ways to log:

    Follow the rules as laid out by the FAA. Or,
    Make up your own rules - like not logging cross countries under some length, logging time when your buddy is actually wiggling the stick because it's your airplane, logging time from lift off instead of start up, etc. etc. etc.
     
  25. weilke

    weilke Touchdown! Greaser!

    Joined:
    Jan 26, 2010
    Messages:
    12,024
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    weilke
    Make a post stating that you like ice cream and it'll be at 50 Posts before noon.
     
  26. Somedudeintn

    Somedudeintn Cleared for Takeoff

    Joined:
    May 12, 2014
    Messages:
    1,041
    Location:
    Knoxville, Tn
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Wayne F
    Where are the FAA logging rules? All I recall seeing is that you need to be able to show currency.
     
  27. Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe

    Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe Touchdown! Greaser!

    Joined:
    Jun 7, 2008
    Messages:
    10,664
    Location:
    DXO124009
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Light and Sporty Guy
    61.1 (defines cross country) and 61.51 covers most of it.
     
  28. midlifeflyer

    midlifeflyer Final Approach

    Joined:
    May 25, 2006
    Messages:
    8,535
    Location:
    Chapel Hill NC
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Mark
    Yes. But the 61.65 cross country requires it to be as (logged) PIC, so only the solo cross countries count toward it.
     
  29. Neil Rubin

    Neil Rubin Pre-takeoff checklist

    Joined:
    Aug 24, 2013
    Messages:
    115
    Location:
    Santa Monica, CA
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Neil Rubin
    The general cross country definition with no minimum distance is used for Category II and Category III pilot authorizations (as well as Part 135, as you note). You need 250 nm of PIC cross country under this definition for Cat II/III authorization.

    In my electronic logbook, I record the distance to the farthest point of landing, as well as a notation for any flight where I flew more than 50 nm, but didn’t land more than 50 nm from point of departure. That way I’m prepared to calculate any one of the dozen or so different types of cross country I might need to enter into IACRA some day for a future rating.
     
    midlifeflyer likes this.
  30. EricBe

    EricBe Pre-takeoff checklist

    Joined:
    Jul 29, 2013
    Messages:
    160
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Eric Berman
    My block post[https://myflightbookblog.blogspot.com/2018/08/logging-cross-country-time.html] covers techniques for logging this in MyFlightbook. In particular, point-to-point is not necessary to log since it can be computed.
     
    Somedudeintn and BrianNC like this.
  31. woodchucker

    woodchucker Line Up and Wait

    Joined:
    Sep 20, 2014
    Messages:
    864
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    woodchucker
    An informative thread ... thanks OP and all posters! I’m going to have to go back and look at my own XC time and take up these suggestions.
     
  32. midlifeflyer

    midlifeflyer Final Approach

    Joined:
    May 25, 2006
    Messages:
    8,535
    Location:
    Chapel Hill NC
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Mark
    That's been the case for me in my self-made eLog before switching full time to MyFlightBook. But doesn't that assume the pilot is only identifying airports he or she has landed at in the Route field and not enroute airports used as waypoints?

    To use the example in your blog post, how does MyFlightBook treat KSEA KSFO KSEA? A pilot might legitimately log that as his or her Route whether or not landing at KSFO.
     
  33. Greg Bockelman

    Greg Bockelman Administrator Management Council Member

    Joined:
    Feb 23, 2005
    Messages:
    9,363
    Location:
    Yona (Say Joan ya), Guam
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Greg Bockelman
    So I am sitting here with 25,000+ hours in my 6 or 7 logbooks. I pretty much have all the certificates and ratings that I want or need. Well, I might add one or two more before I hang it up. Do I really need an electronic logbook? What benefit would it be to me at this stage of my flying career? There is no way I am going to enter all of my flying in one if I get one.
     
  34. midlifeflyer

    midlifeflyer Final Approach

    Joined:
    May 25, 2006
    Messages:
    8,535
    Location:
    Chapel Hill NC
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Mark
    If I were in your situation I wouldn't care either. Even without that, if I hadn't been keeping one for the past 23+ years, I probably wouldn't be interested en re-entering my flight time, although I might still be interested in stopping my paper recordkeeping, entering my totals into the app, and using it for my future logging.
     
  35. jaybee

    jaybee Cleared for Takeoff

    Joined:
    Jan 22, 2012
    Messages:
    1,135
    Location:
    sometimes Cocoa, FL
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    jaybee
    At your stage probably not very useful other than having a back up record in case your hard books were somehow lost, which unfortunately happened to me in which case thank God I had the digital copy.

    For a relative noob I used the digital in several fashions. If a prospective employer showed interest I could forward a digital copy. Most importantly in direct regards to this thread as I was struggling to meet the hour requirements for 135 (any XC hours) and eventually 121 (anything greater than 50nm landing or not) I was able to go back and edit (add columns) without making an absolute mess of hard copy. Also, filling out an IACRA form became a breeze as keeping track of two different categories as well as dual received, night landings, night landings PIC, etc, etc can be a real chore to parse by hand.
     
  36. ja_user

    ja_user Pattern Altitude

    Joined:
    Nov 22, 2010
    Messages:
    1,533
    Location:
    Kixd
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Sam
    My flight book will let you just put in your current totals and start from there.

    I'd probably snap some photo's of those logbooks for backup, myself.
     
  37. EricBe

    EricBe Pre-takeoff checklist

    Joined:
    Jul 29, 2013
    Messages:
    160
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Eric Berman
    That will absolutely be picked up by the system as a "non-local" cross-country flight (i.e., the base definition; not necessarily meeting any distance threshold). So would KSFO-KOAK-KSFO (to use a clearly < 25nm example).

    So it will accrue to your cross-country time if you log the flight time in the cross-country field; it will not if you leave that field empty. If you search for "non-local" flights, then your total time (and PIC, etc.) will include this flight, but it will not be tagged as cross-country time per se; you just know that because it's only flights that left the home airport, all the flights are basic cross-country (i.e., simply left the home airport, no particular distance).

    I think that's the right behavior here. If you're working on an ATP rating (no landing required), this is also correct.

    Otherwise, if you're just looking for your basic cross-country time, though, you'd want to exclude this. I'd probably just put the fact that you overflew KSFO into the remarks for the flight. I'm literally determining non-local by looking for patterns in the Route field that are other than X, X X, KX X, or X KX. (I.e., "KSFO", "KSFO KSFO", "KSFO SFO", or "SFO KSFO", respectively; any separator between them is fine).
     
    midlifeflyer likes this.