Two things...

flhrci

flhrci

Final Approach
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David
Twice today while I was training primary students, an aircraft from The Ohio State University called "low downwind" from a VOR-A approach in high VFR conditions and entered a right base and touch'n'go for runway 27. Airport is left-downwind only for either runway.

What the heck is "low downwind" and is it real phraseology?

Is a right hand pattern appropriate from any circling approach in a left-downwind pattern airport and in what conditions?

I am not a CFII and never heard of this stuff years back doing my IR and CFI. I want to know if they are right or wrong.

VOR-A approach


David
 
flhrci said:
Twice today while I was training primary students, an aircraft from The Ohio State University called "low downwind" from a VOR-A approach in high VFR conditions and entered a right base and touch'n'go for runway 27. Airport is left-downwind only for either runway.

What the heck is "low downwind" and is it real phraseology?

Is a right hand pattern appropriate from any circling approach in a left-downwind pattern airport and in what conditions?

I am not a CFII and never heard of this stuff years back doing my IR and CFI. I want to know if they are right or wrong.

VOR-A approach


David
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FTFY. :D

Students say and do wrong **** all the time. The instructor probably cringed when s/he said that.

Beyond that, see all the million threads about patterns. Cue the rarraarrarrraaaarrs.
 
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flhrci said:
What the heck is "low downwind" and is it real phraseology?
Is a right hand pattern appropriate from any circling approach in a left-downwind pattern airport and in what conditions?
Click to expand...
1.I'm guessing he meant downwind at a lower altitude(at the circling minimums) and no it is not real phraseology.
2.With circling, you do whatever pattern you want/need to get you lined up with the runway and keeping you within the confines of the protected airspace.
 
Gucci Pilot said:
1.I'm guessing he meant downwind at a lower altitude(at the circling minimums) and no it is not real phraseology.
2.With circling, you do whatever pattern you want/need to get you lined up with the runway and keeping you within the confines of the protected airspace.
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Ok, I can accept that and it makes sense. I just was not sure.

David
 
petrolero said:
FTFY. :D

Students say and do wrong **** all the time. The instructor probably cringed when s/he said that.

Beyond that, see all the million threads about patterns. Cue the rarraarrarrraaaarrs.
Click to expand...


I agree with your first statement but two separate aircraft and pilots means they are teaching that phrase.

David
 
To my knowledge it is not proper phraseology. I think "circling to land" might be more correct, but may be even more confusing to non-instrument rated pilots and is possibly less precise.

I've used "low downwind" because I felt it best conveyed what was going on. Do you have any suggestion of something that would be clearer?
 
\__[Ô]__/;1963315 said:
To my knowledge it is not proper phraseology. I think "circling to land" might be more correct, but may be even more confusing to non-instrument rated pilots and is possibly less precise.

I've used "low downwind" because I felt it best conveyed what was going on. Do you have any suggestion of something that would be clearer?
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At a loss for now. I don't teach my primary students to fly a low downwind. So it has has never come up before.

David
 
Circle to land sounds right, personally I like to follow the normal traffic pattern when possible, the whole not going northbound on a southbound road thing ;)
 
Gucci Pilot said:
1.I'm guessing he meant downwind at a lower altitude(at the circling minimums) and no it is not real phraseology.
2.With circling, you do whatever pattern you want/need to get you lined up with the runway and keeping you within the confines of the protected airspace.
Click to expand...

That's what I would guess too. They probably just wanted to let everyone know that they were lower than TPA.
 
If he was practicing the full approach...look at what the circling minimums are vs pattern altitude.

Bet he was at that altitude and that is what he was trying to convey.

Can sometimes be a fumble on the radio when you are trying to announce your IFR intentions in way that VFR pilots will understand. Saying you are on a such and such approach or circling to land on the radio means squat to a VFR pilot in the pattern.
 
Shawn said:
Can sometimes be a fumble on the radio when you are trying to announce your IFR intentions in way that VFR pilots will understand. Saying you are on a such and such approach or circling to land on the radio means squat to a VFR pilot in the pattern.
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Exactly!
 
Next time just ask their altitude, or just ask what a low downwind is.

And I'll agree that the plane was probably at circling altitude.
 
Circle to land is the most likely explanation. Last time I practiced a circle to land ATC came on and gave a "low altitude alert". I was just like... um I'm flying at circling mins and you know I'm doing this procedure :). Not sure if they just forgot or are required to say that if the radar freaks out.
 
Can I infer from this thread that a circle to land is or can be lower than pattern altitude? As a VFR guy, CTL would have my head on a swivel. Although I've never heard it at KOSU or anywhere else, I agree a low downwind would be more meaningful to me.
 
To answer the other half of the question, occasionally CTL limits conflict with pattern direction. Not commonly, but obstructions or terrain can limit CTL options.

An example is Tracy, CA (KTCY), where left circling to RWY 30 is "NA" on the approach plates, but all runways have left traffic.
 
iflyvfr said:
Can I infer from this thread that a circle to land is or can be lower than pattern altitude? As a VFR guy, CTL would have my head on a swivel. Although I've never heard it at KOSU or anywhere else, I agree a low downwind would be more meaningful to me.
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Yup

In this case..
image.jpg


Depending on how you're shooting the approach your circling altitude would be 996' AGL (1880' MSL) or 636' AGL (1520' MSL), vs your standard issue 1,000' AGL TPA.
 
iflyvfr said:
Can I infer from this thread that a circle to land is or can be lower than pattern altitude? As a VFR guy, CTL would have my head on a swivel. Although I've never heard it at KOSU or anywhere else, I agree a low downwind would be more meaningful to me.
Click to expand...

Only time a IFR pilot should be in conflict with VFR traffic on a CTL procedure is if they are doing a practice approach in which case it is on the IFR pilot to clearly communicate if they are doing something OTHER than a typical pattern entry at TPA. If they are coming in outta actual conditions, they should join the pattern at TPA if ceilings allow...and if ceilings are low enough to be at CTL minimums, VFR traffic should not be up anyway.
 
One would hope there is no VFR traffic below Class E with a low ceiling, but it's often legal.

If the tower is closed (which includes daylight and twilight times in summer), Salinas has legal VFR traffic just below 700 AGL and a LOC/DME approach with circling minimums at 480, as an example in your neighborhood. Marina also has circling minimums below 700 and can have legal VFR traffic in daytime.
 
I use "low approach only" to let people I'm going to do most of an approach and go missed.

Don't think I want to be flying where people are using IAPs the way you describe. On a CAVU day at a non-towered airport I think CTL to a touch and go is just plain rude. And not something they need to be practicing.
 
rolivi said:
Don't think I want to be flying where people are using IAPs the way you describe. On a CAVU day at a non-towered airport I think CTL to a touch and go is just plain rude. And not something they need to be practicing.
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So you never did a circle to land in your instrument training or on your checkride?
 
mondtster said:
So you never did a circle to land in your instrument training or on your checkride?
Click to expand...

Real world IFR you WILL eventually need it, and it's a skill that doesn't come naturally when you're used to breaking out with a straight in runway in sight.
 
rolivi said:
And not something they need to be practicing.
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I think they are one of the most dangerous things about instrument flying and I don't know why a higher emphasis isn't placed on them during instrument training.
 
While a busy airport may not be the best time and place to teach CTL, you'd better teach it. Most low time pilots have never even flown a pattern lower than 1000' AGL and are almost guaranteed to mismanage the power and speeds during the base to final turn, just because it looks completely foreign to them if all they've done is "normal" patterns.

Jesse has a favorite airport for demoing CTL at night at. He's sitting there and knows the lay of the land like the back of his hand, but the student may have never been that low, in the dark, working out a new sight picture right after pushing a hood back and being warned if they go back above X altitude, the hood goes back down.

Frankly it's really good experience for showing why CTL at night is probably not your best or smartest option. Nothing like seeing it in person in simulated but very difficult conditions (pitch black, Nebraska, zero horizon outside and watching an airport that's barely lit float by the side window) to give you a sense of ass-pucker you can remember later when you think "Oh, that place has a CTL I can shoot to go in there..." so your brain says, "That wasn't particularly fun in good weather, idiot. No. Land somewhere else."
 
I wasn't saying DON'T train and practice CTL, I was saying don't do it at a non-towered airport in CAVU day in what reads like jumping the circuit with strange radio calls. We practice CTL on the ILS35L at KFWS all the time. It being a towered airport, with eyes all over the place to make sure the circling aircraft, anyone in the circuit to 17R, and anyone launching south know the circling aircraft is out there.
 
rolivi said:
I wasn't saying DON'T train and practice CTL, I was saying don't do it at a non-towered airport in CAVU day in what reads like jumping the circuit with strange radio calls. We practice CTL on the ILS35L at KFWS all the time. It being a towered airport, with eyes all over the place to make sure the circling aircraft, anyone in the circuit to 17R, and anyone launching south know the circling aircraft is out there.
Click to expand...


Plenty of empty airports around here on CAVU days. Especially weekdays. It's all situational.
 
Quick reminder of the original post:
Twice today while I was training primary students, an aircraft from The Ohio State University called "low downwind" from a VOR-A approach in high VFR conditions and entered a right base and touch'n'go for runway 27. Airport is left-downwind only for either runway.

What the heck is "low downwind" and is it real phraseology?

Is a right hand pattern appropriate from any circling approach in a left-downwind pattern airport and in what conditions?

I'm standing pat with my conclusion it's at the very least, rude. And I'll add that the direction of the circling is at the pilots discretion when in IMC unless specifically charted not allowed.
 
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How does pilot discretion in direction of circling square with 14 CFR 91.126(b)(1)?

Some approaches prohibit the otherwise required turn direction, and operating towers generally tell you which way to turn. Where is the discretion?
 
rolivi said:
I'm standing pat with my conclusion it's at the very least, rude. And I'll add that the direction of the circling is at the pilots discretion when in IMC unless specifically charted not allowed.
Click to expand...


If you pick that nit too hard it'll bleed.

How about Marginal VFR with an IFR descending out of an overcast? :)

Rude? Or just "uncontrolled" like it always is?
 
MAKG1 said:
How does pilot discretion in direction of circling square with 14 CFR 91.126(b)(1)?

Some approaches prohibit the otherwise required turn direction, and operating towers generally tell you which way to turn. Where is the discretion?
Click to expand...

I think it lies in:
91.126(a) Unless otherwise authorized or required, each person operating an aircraft on or in the vicinity of an airport in a Class G airspace area must comply with the requirements of this section.
Click to expand...

The way I take it is, "I wanted to turn left but due to there being terrain to the left I was required to turn right to prevent CFIT."
 
Gucci Pilot said:
I think it lies in:

The way I take it is, "I wanted to turn left but due to there being terrain to the left I was required to turn right to prevent CFIT."
Click to expand...

But then there isn't any discretion.

And the requirement is usually something like "circling SW of RWY 30 NA"
 
MAKG1 said:
But then there isn't any discretion.

And the requirement is usually something like "circling SW of RWY 30 NA"
Click to expand...

I guess I found the answer:Right Turns

Then again, sitting on the left side I can't think of many times I circled making right hand turns in a Cessna. But in the weather, if I felt I needed to, I would. Circle to the right all the time in the 10 but we are always at a towered field.
 
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