Two questions / Jet Sump / Expired maps.

mulligan

mulligan

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Mulligan
Do jets sump their fuel tanks?

If you navigation maps expired Fed 2nd in your G1000 and you are turning in your plane on trade and have to fly it to the delivery point, is it legal if you maintain VFR?
 
No idea on #1.

On #2, I don't see why not as long as you have a VFR paper chart or EFB.
 
the EA6B did, and the E2s also. TC4C didn't. they had fuel heaters to melt the ice, and the Dart would run just fine with water mixed.
 
mscard88 said:
We didn't sump the turbo-props nor the jets.

Sure turn off all your avionics. Don't need that shet.
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Friggin Garmin charges about the same to do a one month update as an entire year of updates. Guess I'll fly VFR for the first time in a year and carry my EFB.
 
mulligan said:
Friggin Garmin charges about the same to do a one month update as an entire year of updates. Guess I'll fly VFR for the first time in a year and carry my EFB.
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If ya need a navigator lemme know, but you have to ride me back in the Cirrus as long as you promise to...ready?...not PULL!
 
mscard88 said:
If ya need a navigator lemme know, but you have to ride me back in the Cirrus as long as you promise to...ready?...not PULL!
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KBHM Thursday at 8:00. Don't need a navigator but we can throw **** out the plane.
 
I've never sumped any jets I've flown but they also always got topped off right after shutdown.
 
1. No idea for jets but we sump Jet A in helos.

2. Probably would be in the G1000 manual if there's a restriction but I doubt it has anything for VFR. The FAA actually has no policy against outdated charts whether it be IFR or VFR. It's a large / turbine aircraft requirement or for 135/121 ops.
 
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mulligan said:
If you navigation maps expired Fed 2nd in your G1000 and you are turning in your plane on trade and have to fly it to the delivery point, is it legal if you maintain VFR?
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Just follow I-59 to CHA, then I-75 to TYS. Easy peasy!
 
We sump the Citation (I know, it's not a real jet) but not every flight...and we have found some trash. We do have filters(with sensors) & heaters though.
 
If you sump a jet, do you pour it out on the ground?
 
Jets are supposed to be sumped pretty much like piston airplanes. The reality is that they probably aren't for a couple of reasons.

the primary reason is that for the most part it's a waste of time. Unless there's LOTS of water in the fuel, the specific gravity of jet fuel is close enough to that of water that it takes a long time for any water to come out of suspension. Fueling stirs it up and puts the water back into suspension. Moving the airplane stirs it up and puts the water back into suspension.

I've had enough water in a jet that it severely screwed up our fuel gauges, to the point that we landed and got another airplane to fly the trip...but there was no effect on engine operation.

Where water becomes a problem in jets is up at altitude when it may freeze and clogs things up.

Of course, when we did proving runs with the FAA on board, we sumped after fueling...and stayed overnight because the drain wouldn't shut off all the way. :(
 
I've always sumped turbo props

And yes, as long as you have something to navigate by, unless it's just a local hop and you know the area like the back of your hand, you're good, paper, iPad, whatever, it's all good for your VFR flight.
 
Since when is flying with no maps preferable to flying with expired ones? As long as you aren't IFR (although you could be, if you verified no changes to the parts you will be using), fly with what maps you got. Ain't it better than not having no map atall? Is ta me . . .
 
Hank S said:
Since when is flying with no maps preferable to flying with expired ones? As long as you aren't IFR (although you could be, if you verified no changes to the parts you will be using), fly with what maps you got. Ain't it better than not having no map atall? Is ta me . . .
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If you're just staying local and know all the freqs and everything, no NEED to even have a map.

If you're going far enough you might need a map, no good reason with today's tech and overnight shipping that you shouldn't be able to just get a up to date map.
 
James331 said:
If you're just staying local and know all the freqs and everything, no NEED to even have a map.

If you're going far enough you might need a map, no good reason with today's tech and overnight shipping that you shouldn't be able to just get a up to date map.
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I had a perfectly good sectional. Got it out of the plane to look at in the FBO I was visiting, flew home without it because I know the local area. Realized it was gone when I was loading the plane for my next trip. 1-800-I Need a Sectional Now just don't Work! Maybe in the big city, but I don't know how to get there, find the airport, what are the freqs, without the map I lost . . .

But lookkee here under the seat, the one just like it that expired a month ago! It still works, the airports ain't moved a inch!
 
Hank S said:
I had a perfectly good sectional. Got it out of the plane to look at in the FBO I was visiting, flew home without it because I know the local area. Realized it was gone when I was loading the plane for my next trip. 1-800-I Need a Sectional Now just don't Work! Maybe in the big city, but I don't know how to get there, find the airport, what are the freqs, without the map I lost . . .

But lookkee here under the seat, the one just like it that expired a month ago! It still works, the airports ain't moved a inch!
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In that situation sure.

Having FF on your phone is great for situations like that too.
 
Hank S said:
Avare works well, too. But the batteries in my sectional never run down . . .
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True, I'm a big fan of paper, especially for students.

That said, nothing handles updates as well as EFBs, oh, look at that, my charts are about to expire, I just hit the update button and continue on drinking my coffee. Also I always have my phone on me, a few states worth of VFR/IFR/IAPs/AFDs/etc in it, I can't recall the last time I made it common practice to walk around with all that paper in my pocket.
 
Something I learned recently with some advanced training is that all jet fuel has water in it, contained in suspension. Like air, the warmer the fuel, the more water it can hold. The more atmosphere that comes in contact with it (not full fuel/storage tanks), the more water you can get. The fuel seeks a specific level of water and will pull it out of the atmosphere to maintain it.

A sudden cold snap and you might sump a lot more water than you normally see in your fuel. This can be a problem at altitude with the colder environment for a long period of time to drop the fuel temperature. Ice deposits can build up without FSII additive or heating.

While this is normal, too much water opens the door to microbial growth which only happens in jet fuel. This makes eliminating excess water in jet-a a pretty big priority (at least with our jet storage tanks).

That being said, I have never seen a jet-a customer sump their aircraft. Most leave their jets empty until the day of departure and take fuel and go soon after. It wouldn't be a good time to sump anyway considering that it mixes the fuel and holds particulates and water in suspension. Time is needed to let them settle out of solution - all fuel deliveries to our fuel farms have to sit for 10 minutes after arriving to settle.
 
We used to use 1 ft per hour for adequate settling time. That's why it's best for first flight of the day to sump the tank.
 
flhrci said:
You have your own "people"? Wow!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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Well the airline did. We never sumped our turbo-props or jets. I never saw a mechanic do it either. Maybe because the planes were in use 10-12 hours a day influenced, I dunno.
 
Around here, sumping in jets is done periodically by mechanics. You don't need to sump as frequently as in a piston because jet engines are less finicky about a little bit of water.
 
Hell, I wouldn't know how to sump the tanks on my airplane even if I wanted to.
 
mscard88 said:
Well the airline did. We never sumped our turbo-props or jets. I never saw a mechanic do it either. Maybe because the planes were in use 10-12 hours a day influenced, I dunno.
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I thought you were special. But you were just referring to the ramp/line slaves. Got it.
 
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