Two Greens...

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PaulMKE

Pre-takeoff checklist
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PaulMKE
Working on transitioning from Warrior/ Archer to an Arrow, so training for my complex endorsement.

Flight today was to be a short hop with a few TNG at destination with my CFI. Entertering the pattern, prelanding checklist done, slow below 130, gear down ... Two greens. Negative nose gear. Slow the plane more, flaps, two greens. Crud.

What happened next: mild general tension (more like controlled panic) as we cycled the gear, wiggled the rudder and began adjusting every dimmer switch on the panel. And lots of jabbering. Then the other two greens go out. I stopped working the gear issue: fly the airplane first. Power on, exit the pattern, get safe altitude, work the problem.

What should have happened: I should have better known the POH emergency procedures. Reflecting now, I think we should have climbed to a safe altitude above the pattern and orbited the field. We had two pilots and a POH on board; we could have tried some basics then pulled the book and run the list. Neither of us mentioned the emergency down lever, but we also didn't work the problem long.

Ultimately it was just a slow gear mechanism on a cold day (about 20-30 sec). Our fiddling with the dimmers made it more confusing and stressful (the POH does say to check dimmers) because in our haste we turned the panel lights ON making the greens unseeable in the sun.

Lesson ... Procedures matter. Have a plan. Fly the plane. Work the issue deliberately.
 
I assume the story ended with three green?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
Yes ... Some patience, three greens, no dents, all is well ;)
 
so was there anything in the checklist/POH that you didn't do before checking it?
 
As you know, gravity drops the gear. The nose gear has a spring to help it travel forward against the airflow. Therefore, your airspeed is important. Yes, wiggle the rudder to see if that helps. But also be sure to be on airspeed and not above it for expediting gear extension.

-Skip
 
Your airplane? Installing press-to-test light sockets does away with a lot of that distraction. Highly recommend.
If the bulb lights when you press it, the problem ain't the bulb.
 
Checklist, checklist, checklist. Troubleshooting stuff like that and allowing two people to go "heads down" in the traffic pattern to do it, is not good.

Cycle them once, and then it's "climb checklist" and pick someplace else to go. Too much chance of running over someone else in the pattern while you're distracted.

Once there, don't do things that make it worse (messing with panel lights. If you had two green, the panel lighting is obviously in the correct daylight position, don't screw with it). Checklist, checklist, checklist.

What's worrying me more than you're confusion is your instructor's. I've NEVER had an instructor in 20 years of flying who thought troubleshooting a gear problem in the pattern was ever a good idea. I mean seriously, EVER.

They might tell me to fly the plane after a couple of attempts and keep my head outside, and on the way to somewhere better to do it, they might have announced that they were going to try something THEN, but they'd all have mandated one pilot stay visual in the pattern and fly the plane ONLY and planned to leave the area and notify the tower if there was one.

Unless maybe the aircraft appeared to be on fire... Or the hydraulic pump was burning up. That flips the priorities a bit.

I came too close to becoming a statistic once with a pilot who was so distracted by a gear problem that he allowed the aircraft to roll into a 40+ degree bank at night with no horizon while he was heads down troubleshooting. Non-rated passenger in the right seat, and me in the back seat. My silence (to allow him to work on it) was punctuated by foreceful statement of the phrase "Bank angle!" three times during his troubleshooting to get him to pay attention to the aircraft attitude before he gave up and set up for a gear up landing. Last green came on at 200' AGL just before the flare.

The fire truck lights out the side windows were pretty, though.
 
Remember the Eastern Airlines jet that crashed in the Everglades working a gear problem. They were all heads down and no one noticed the plane was descending.
 
@eman1200, POH procedure is to check master on; check breakers in; panel lights off; check gear lights functional. If all fail proceed with emergency down sequence. So we could have worked it in more structured way rather than the rush we were doing.

Moreover, to @denverpilot's points, I think I'm aggravated with myself for not knowing the procedure cold.

On the plus side, I did stay visual; there was very little time with both heads down (seconds). I let him work the panel while I flew and managed the pattern. Traffic was among top of mind for me as we were at a nontowered field.

One normal procedure I'm going to change, to Skips point, is to slow the airplane sooner and drop the gear sooner. We have been lowering the gear at appx 110-120kts midfield downwind. An earlier gear down will give more time to lock down, debug any issues, and more time for the drag to slow us down for a stabilized approach.
 
denverpilot said:
mandated one pilot stay visual in the pattern and fly the plane ONLY
Click to expand...

So this is a really good learning. With two pilots, we should have verbally communicated who was doing what. "My aircraft; you work the checklist" might have lowered the tension level substantially. I'll reread those CRM materials with fresh eyes!
 
PaulMKE said:
So this is a really good learning. With two pilots, we should have verbally communicated who was doing what. "My aircraft; you work the checklist" might have lowered the tension level substantially. I'll reread those CRM materials with fresh eyes!
Click to expand...

Yup. Fly the plane first. Then work the problem methodically with the checklist, and PIC delegates duties if they have additional resources on board.

Just like the big kids in the big airplanes. :)

By the way, on multiple re-written checklists on the Pipers at the club there's a note next to that item about the panel lights that says "Caution: Changing panel lighting may affect operation of gear lights" and goes on to explain it underneath that section of the checklist. They've had folks change a working config into a non-working config and confuse themselves. Most of the instructors teach that if two of them are working, there's no point in doing that item, or if you do it for consistency with the checklist, do it as a "turn knob and see the working ones dim and then turn it right back where it was" single action. Scenario changes a little if all three aren't lit.

In my scenario where the dude (ATP rated even) tried to turn us all into a stall spin accident at night, I learned another lesson. Doesn't matter if the VP of the company wants to ride shotgun. If there's two rated pilots on board they're both sitting up front. Sorry VP.

Never know when something will come up, even in a simple airplane that normally only requires one person up front, where another rated pilot could be useful.

I could have coached the VP through helping the left seater stay straight and level from the back seat, but that's just more noise and more distractions for all. Much easier if I'd have just been sitting there to begin with, and played autopilot for him.
 
Something is missing here.

A gear fault is not an emergency requiring any more immediate action than not landing. There is no reason to be in a hurry at all. You do not need to have the extension checklist memorized; in fact it's probably best not to unless you practice it regularly. You need to get to a safe altitude, open the POH, and take your time on each step.

That is, unless you're also extremely low on fuel, in which case your real problem would be fuel planning. You should have at least 30 minutes to troubleshoot this, probably much more.
 
mscard88 said:
Remember the Eastern Airlines jet that crashed in the Everglades working a gear problem. They were all heads down and no one noticed the plane was descending.
Click to expand...

and don't forget fuel state. United 173, PDX, 1978
 
I've got 10 hours in an Arrow now. I know how to work checklists, use my resources outside the cockpit, and work the emergency gear override. But because you brought it up here, if I ever get two greens, I've already had a chance to think it through before being at the controls on short final. @PaulMKE , @denverpilot - thanks for the public discussion. Very useful.

Now, here's an example of what NOT to do in an Arrow:

:
 
Anyone see a checklist anywhere in that video? Arghhh!!!

Lovely pre-crash brief, too. How about, "After the airplane comes to a stop I need you to pop that door open and get out and go toward the REAR of the aircraft, stay away from the propeller. I will finish securing the engine and fuel and will meet you back there."

Not, sit there for a bit and make camera remarks and then realize, "Oh hey we'd better get out." Beat head here.

Videos like that just get me grumpy. Very grumpy. That dude swapped his PIC duty for becoming a passenger along for the crash. If they'd have had a post crash fire, he and his passenger would have been in deep doo. Get the passenger out, secure the engine, electrics, and fuel and follow them out the door. Sitting in an airplane that just slid to a stop on a runway is a really bad idea. You can get back in and get your iPad later. Ha.

Note also another minor pet peeve of mine. My sun visors also like to droop down like that. If I suspect we are going to be in a scenario where someone's head could go forward I want that thing flat or pushed out of the way.

My dad saw a nice older lady in a very minor head on automotive collision have to be airlifted out because her head hit the damned sun visor in the car edge on and it jacked up her head and neck something fierce. That head on happened at only 10MPH combined. (Each vehicle creeping along doing about 5. A secondary accident caused by a lookie-loo at a high speed rollover. In fact there were two secondaries and the other one rolled a Grand Cherokee in the ditch.). He helped the line State Trooper block the rural highway so the helo could land.

If the seat is movable I also want the passenger slid all the way rearward and their belts tightened as much as they can stand it, too.

Details details. Sigh.

I'm not perfect about checklist use, and @jesse liked catching me not using it during instrument training when I would get overloaded and make me put it back into my workflow, but gear failure is one where unless you cut things way too close on fuel, you've got time to pull it out and run it correctly.

I'll also state for the record I haven't flown Piper retracts. Only Cessna. The emergency extension procedure is different but the bigger concepts of fly the plane, exit the pattern, get some altitude, check fuel quantity ("how long can we screw around with this?" - people have run out of gas, troubleshooting), spilt duties and know who's doing what, and working through the problem methodically, are all timeless -- and work for any aircraft emergency that isn't time critical.

Here's a change to the scenario for you. You start down an instrument approach in IMC and the same thing happens. Two green. What's the correct procedure? Missed approach. Climb up and out and come up with a plan. Going to hang out in IMC and troubleshoot? Hold? Can you get to VMC?

Workload is going to be pretty damn high if you're flying single pilot today... Choose how to manage it wisely...

(And maybe mutter to yourself, "I should have flown the fixed gear today..." Hahaha!)

The guy in the video just showed an excellent example of the "Resignation" Hazardous Attitude, too. He hadn't asked if there was something else he could still do before committing to the landing.

I'm not disrespecting him. He's a good enough pilot the thing slid to a stop on the runway and it didn't even sound like he had a prop strike. The problem was, someone didn't teach him to work the problem correctly. Or if they did, he fell way out of practice.

A good CFI can help. Go simulate the problem again (just have the CFI announce that one of the gear lights didn't come on) and re-run the scenario the next time you fly with him or her. Polish it up so you feel confident that the outcome would be a stress-free methodical approach to handling it, and good coordination of available cockpit resources. Can do it on any flight.

I like to whine that I never seem to have engine "failures" unless a CFI is on board, but we need those scenarios dropped in our laps from time to time in a controlled environment so we can knock the rust off the emergency procedures.
 
whereisrandall said:
I've got 10 hours in an Arrow now. I know how to work checklists, use my resources outside the cockpit, and work the emergency gear override. But because you brought it up here, if I ever get two greens, I've already had a chance to think it through before being at the controls on short final. @PaulMKE , @denverpilot - thanks for the public discussion. Very useful.

Now, here's an example of what NOT to do in an Arrow:

:
Click to expand...

Ha! I know the guy that owns that airplane now.
 
MAKG1 said:
A gear fault is not an emergency requiring any more immediate action than not landing. There is no reason to be in a hurry at all. You do not need to have the extension checklist memorized; in fact it's probably best not to unless you practice it regularly. You need to get to a safe altitude, open the POH, and take your time on each step.
Click to expand...
This.

And yet another reason to not cut things too close on fuel when flying a retract (always in the back of my mind). Not that this applies in any way to the OP's flight; just saying.
 
denverpilot said:
The problem was, someone didn't teach him to work the problem correctly. Or if they did, he fell way out of practice.
Click to expand...
Probably not the latter, at least he says in the beginning that he had been checked out the night before.

I have been checked out in the Arrow at two schools, one in Hungary and another in California. The first checkout, while done by an otherwise very experienced and good instructor, did not include the demonstration of the emergency gear extension procedure beyond looking at the lever and checking that the checklist is in the pocket on the left sidewall. The second checkout, however, included multiple simulated gear failures, all the way to completing the checklist with the emergency extension, then rocking the plane to make the gears lock. It surely gave me confidence when a "gear in transit" light came out in cruise over the Panamint Range that I can actually cope with the situation. (No action was required at the end.)
 
Jns_V said:
Probably not the latter, at least he says in the beginning that he had been checked out the night before.
Click to expand...

Oh boy. I didn't notice that. I bet the owner had some words with whoever checked him out. Ouch.

Jns_V said:
I have been checked out in the Arrow at two schools, one in Hungary and another in California. The first checkout, while done by an otherwise very experienced and good instructor, did not include the demonstration of the emergency gear extension procedure beyond looking at the lever and checking that the checklist is in the pocket on the left sidewall. The second checkout, however, included multiple simulated gear failures, all the way to completing the checklist with the emergency extension, then rocking the plane to make the gears lock. It surely gave me confidence when a "gear in transit" light came out in cruise over the Panamint Range that I can actually cope with the situation. (No action was required at the end.)
Click to expand...

I've had three retract checkouts and one was that sloppy style and two were "let's actually fail the gear by pulling the breaker and you get to put it down with the hand pump" type. I do wish the sloppy style wasn't done, but they're out there. In that airplane I had another CFI fly with me to do one and then did a couple more by myself later on.

The funny one was the Mooney M20C with the Johnson bar gear. "What's the emergency gear extension procedure?" says the CFI... "Push harder and hope whatever is stuck breaks before the lever does?" LOL...

Always loved that old Mooney gear though. It was pretty obvious if it was down or up, since you just moved it yourself with the "Armstrong" method. Also gave interesting feedback via your arm and how hard you had to push about the real forces involved in lowering gear at higher airspeeds. They'd fall halfway and the lever would be sticking straight up between the seats and then you had to puuuuuuuuuush.

Right before they locked they'd "take off" on you and your instinct was to try to slow the handle down. If you left your hand in the wrong place you could get a fingers smushed in the down lock for the handle. Hehe. Never managed to do that, was always leery of where I grabbed that handle. Did slow the handle down once enough that it didn't lock and then you have to tug it back up a ways and take another shot at it.

But as long as that lock engaged (just tug on the handle to make sure), you knew the gear was down. Lovely system. So simple.
 
whereisrandall said:
I've got 10 hours in an Arrow now. I know how to work checklists, use my resources outside the cockpit, and work the emergency gear override. But because you brought it up here, if I ever get two greens, I've already had a chance to think it through before being at the controls on short final. @PaulMKE , @denverpilot - thanks for the public discussion. Very useful.

Now, here's an example of what NOT to do in an Arrow:

:
Click to expand...

That's painful to watch
 
whereisrandall said:
I've got 10 hours in an Arrow now. I know how to work checklists, use my resources outside the cockpit, and work the emergency gear override. But because you brought it up here, if I ever get two greens, I've already had a chance to think it through before being at the controls on short final. @PaulMKE , @denverpilot - thanks for the public discussion. Very useful.

Now, here's an example of what NOT to do in an Arrow:

:
Click to expand...
I hope the FAA examiner didn't see that video before he gave him his 709 ride.........

bob
 
have been told it is very important to be in basically level slow flight, then release the gear. As others have said it is gravity drop with a spring assist. Pictching the nose may also help. From what I have been told the tail wag maneuver is more for the mains than the nose.
 
PaulMKE said:
Moreover, to @denverpilot's points, I think I'm aggravated with myself for not knowing the procedure cold.
Click to expand...
Don't be. As MAKG said, failure of the gear to extend is not an emergency. The Arrow procedure is relatively simple but it can be more complex in other aircraft. No need to memorize immediate action "bold" items when you have plenty of time to work the problem and a written checklist to guide you.

The only real first procedure is, as Nate said, to get away from traffic and into and area an altitude where you can give proper attention to both flying the airplane and dealing with the issue.
 
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I never get but two greens. :)

I've had two gear failures. Both ended being non-events and no emergency. As said, departed the pattern and flew around and worked the issue. Understanding the hydraulic system and alternate extension method saved the day when a micro-switch failed and only one gear extended. Cycled the flaps, repress uridine the system and the right gear extended and locked.

The other time, manually cranking gear worked as advertised when I lost all hydraulics due to electric pump failure. Fifty-two turns and I got the gear safe light and landed normally. At night.
 
I only have one green light and sure enough, one time it didn't come on. This was on a VOR approach over the Ohio River, flying out of WV to an airport on the north bank. Total electrical failure as I passed over the VOR and dropped gear to start descent. Thankfully I had broken out of the clouds just before starting the outbound turn, under the hood with my CFII. I finished the manual extension, pulled the Owners Manual for the -II, leveled off, removed foggles and started troubleshooting and discussing options.

Don't turn it into an emergency. I just flew home along the river, nice and slow below Vg with Approach flaps out. After a while, I tried resetting again and the radios turned on, so I called Approach to let them know what happened, and touched nothing else electrical until we were back in the ground. That 20 minute slow flight home took a l-o-n-g time . . .
 
Paul, glad you got it resolved, and with a CFI nonetheless.

As for the goof in the YT video, these guys give us a bad name. All show and no go. Unfortunately, I have to confess that I know some pilots like that. :(

I agree with everybody else here, when it comes to gear extension failure, stop di*king around, climb out and solve the problem in peace and away from TPA.
I still remember my complex training. We are coming in, I push the gear lever down, feel the deceleration but don't hear the hydraulic pump and no greens. CFI asks "what do you do first?" and my answer made him smile "nothing ... but I'll tell you what I will NOT do ... which is land .... *click* Podunk traffic, BirdChaser 123 going around on 28, Podunk. *click* Emergency checklist please!" Another smile. :)
Then he started getting smarter: "can we afford to d*ck around with some stupid checklist?" - "My fuel gauges say yes, sir" - "Okay"
"Are you sure we can climb out of here? The DA is over 6000" - "Yessir, if we couldn't, I wouldn't have attempted to land in the first place" - "Good"
"Do we really have enough fuel to play around with the gear?" - "If we cannot get the dang gear down in 3 hours, I am landing on the belly" - "Alright"
"What if we can't get 3 green, how do we know whether the gear is down for real?" - "After exhausting the checklist, pumping manually and swapping bulbs etc, we can do a flyby and ask for gear down confirmation either from the ground or another plane" - "Works for me"
"But seriously, what if we don't have one down for real?" - "Then we're leaving Podunk and hopping over the hills to the International place and ask for all the fire trucks, ambulances and foam they got" - "Nice"
"But what if ..." - "I got 3 green, we good?" - "We good" :)
Aaaaah, good times.
 
@BigBadLou's description is very similar to one that happened to me in real life. My wife and I were flying to visit friends who lived at a private strip Yellow Hat, just southeast of Silver West -C08 - for those interested in seeing where it is. As we approached the airfield, I put the gear down. No light.

Everything else told me the gear was probably down. The right drag was there and the gear lever was in the right place. But, especially given the nearest airport with service facilities was a long truck haul, elected to turn around and head home.

Arriving there, I told the tower I was not sure the landing gear was down. On downwind, tower said. "Gear appears down. Say you intentions." "Landing," I replied.

Turned out it was the light. Never regretted the decision.
 
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