Twins are nice

Lance F

Lance F

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Lance F
I got a little more left seat Navajo time tonight. Instructor didn't touch a thing from engine start to engine shutdown, so I definitely got the whole experience. No doubt it's something I could get used to. I can see why you twin drivers enjoy it. BUT when it goes to filling the gas tanks, I think I'll stay with the Mooney.
 
It's not just the gas tanks. I have a friend who used to own a Chieftain. He figured supporting it required a budget of $8K per month -- and this was a few years ago when fuel prices were half what they are now.
 
Lance, that's excellent. Are you training for AMEL rating ?
 
Ken Ibold said:
It's not just the gas tanks. I have a friend who used to own a Chieftain. He figured supporting it required a budget of $8K per month -- and this was a few years ago when fuel prices were half what they are now.
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Now that rots ! $8K/month is more than I make... much more. I wonder what that boils down to for an hourly rate.
 
Ken Ibold said:
It's not just the gas tanks. I have a friend who used to own a Chieftain. He figured supporting it required a budget of $8K per month -- and this was a few years ago when fuel prices were half what they are now.
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The funny thing is that the owner of this plane, which is a Chieftain version, uses it when he wants to save money. His other plane is a Cheyenne III! Everything is relative, isn't it?

I assume that some time I'll get a multi rating, but for now I'm just bumming rides. I'm lucky that my friend that flies these things is a CFI and is willing to log them for me.
 
I really like twins too.

Oh, you guys mean airplanes...
 
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tonycondon said:
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ack! Well, it was a picture of the Coors Light Twins, swimsuit competition.
 
oh no Bill, you dont get off that easy. find a good link!
 
I can't afford those kind of twins either :no: :no:
 
My Apache is 50 years old. You can look down your noses at me for flying an elderly member of the GA family, but I am having a great time.
You should see the look on people's faces when they hear that I have a twin-engined aircraft. It is definitely impressive.:blueplane:
ApacheBob
 
ApacheBob said:
My Apache is 50 years old. You can look down your noses at me for flying an elderly member of the GA family, but I am having a great time.
You should see the look on people's faces when they hear that I have a twin-engined aircraft. It is definitely impressive.:blueplane:
ApacheBob
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Hey, I don't look down my nose at any flyable airplane, it's just that you have to fly an Apache well below MGW if you want any kind of SE climb IME, and therefore I woudn't recommend one to someone that wants to carry a family very far. The same is true of the Dutchess (and Seminole IIRC).
 
lancefisher said:
Hey, I don't look down my nose at any flyable airplane, it's just that you have to fly an Apache well below MGW if you want any kind of SE climb IME, and therefore I woudn't recommend one to someone that wants to carry a family very far. The same is true of the Dutchess (and Seminole IIRC).
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IME, the same is true of all light twins built to Part 23 standards, especially the nonturbocharged ones. The advantage Lance Fisher has with his Baron is that you have to put a lot more in it to get it close to MGW than you do with an Apache, but in either plane, with a full gross load, single engine climb gradient is pretty shallow at sea level and gets worse as you go up.
 
I've often wondered why the Baron's SE service ceiling is only around 8000' and the Seneca is over 16,000' MSL.
 
Ha ! I never noticed that the Baron wasn't turbocharged. Thanks !


Baron G58
Engines
Manufacturer 2 Teledyne Continental
Model IO-550-C
Output 300 hp
Inspection Interval 1,700 hrs

Seneca V
ENGINE
Manufacturer Teledyne Continental
Model TSI0-360-RB / L/TSI0-360-RB
Horsepower 220 hp
 
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Lance F said:
The funny thing is that the owner of this plane, which is a Chieftain version, uses it when he wants to save money. His other plane is a Cheyenne III! Everything is relative, isn't it?

I assume that some time I'll get a multi rating, but for now I'm just bumming rides. I'm lucky that my friend that flies these things is a CFI and is willing to log them for me.
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Everything is relative. Some relatives are rich, some aren't ! :-D
 
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jdwatson said:
Ha ! I never noticed that the Baron wasn't turbocharged. Thanks !


Baron G58
Engines
Manufacturer 2 Teledyne Continental
Model IO-550-C
Output 300 hp
Inspection Interval 1,700 hrs

Seneca V
ENGINE
Manufacturer Teledyne Continental
Model TSI0-360-RB / L/TSI0-360-RB
Horsepower 220 hp
Click to expand...

The single engine ceiling of the non-turbo Seneca I is something like 3800 feet!
 
I live and fly right at the base of the Continental Divide, and I cannot count how many pilots over the years have told me they couldn't wait to get into multiengine a/c flying so they'd be safer over the mntns, be able to fly back out of them if an engine quits. I begin their training only after we take a look at SE performance and SE ceiling, etc. In non-turboed recip' light twins [I include Barons and 310s and Aztecs here], you will find single engine service ceilings significantly less than 10,000...often down around 7,500 or thereabouts. [I'm generalizing, don't have the exact book figures at hand.]

The hopeful, eager multi students still often don't get it until I point out that the ridges and passes in the Colorado Rockies, over which you must fly after the loss of one engine to get to a runway, are going to be 10,000+ and that's not counting the additional few hundred feet, or more, to clear the terrain. This simply means that you'll likely be landing that twin off-field up in the mountains when that remaining engine runs the fuel tanks dry, and you'll be landing with a higher stall speed [ergo, higher touchdown speed] than most light singles and there will be an unfortunate lack of airframe and powerplant material between your legs and the nose of the aircraft in the event you run into a rock or tree as compared with a single engine aircraft, one that has the engine bolted onto the front of the plane.
 
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Baron 55 said:
I live and fly right at the base of the Continental Divide, and I cannot count how many pilots over the years have told me they couldn't wait to get into multiengine a/c flying so they'd be safer over the mntns, be able to fly back out of them if an engine quits. I begin their training only after we take a look at SE performance and SE ceiling, etc. In non-turboed recip' light twins [I include Barons and 310s and Aztecs here], you will find single engine service ceilings significantly less than 10,000...often down around 7,500 or thereabouts. [I'm generalizing, don't have the exact book figures at hand.]

This issue came up during my multi training. As soon as you are down to one engine, the airplane doesn't immediately drop 5,000 feet. The airplane will lose altitude. But, with competence, the descent will be gradual. You may not get a second chance once you pick the landing area in the mountains. But you will have more time to pick that landing area after one engine quits if you still have another engine running.
If you only had one engine to start with, your range of options for landing areas will be much more limited.:blueplane:
ApacheBob
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I advise pilots moving to twins to go normally aspirated here in the midwest. But if they are going to the Rockies, Merlin Wastegates in the Seneca II are the MINIMUM acceptable "IFR at night in the mountains" equipment, for survival.
 
On the P-Baron, the single engine performance with just some fuel burn from a full gross takeoff is 13,000. Of course, lighter means higher.

As Bob said, even though that's the ceiling (meaning it will climb 50 fmp), it very much extends the glide down to that ceiling if you're higher allowing you to avoid some things on the way down or to get to an area where thing are lower.

It's all trade offs as we all know. Knowing one's plane and systems, staying proficient and planning for an out all improve one's odds in these situations.


Best,

Dave
 
The fact is that Part 23 light twins have two engines not for redundancy, but for performance, i.e., payload and speed. That's because technology (primarily a combination of materials and aero/thermodynamics) limits us to a little over 300 HP in a flat, opposed, air-cooled piston engine for reliable aircraft use, and to haul six people and bags at 170 knots or more requires more like 500 HP, and you can't get that out of one engine unless it is round (radial or turbine). Hence, light twins can't fly too well on one engine unless they're built to Part 25 standards which require enough power per engine to provide reasonably good one-engine-inoperative takeoff/climb performance under all authorized circumstances.
 
Seeing that Champion Lancer for sale a few months ago made me realize how perfect of a multi trainer it is. with a single engine service ceiling below sea level, it teaches you that if you lose an engine you are going down so you better get ready for it. no trying to hold altitude, just pick a field underneath you and put it down. Would build good habits for future multi flying, IMO. too bad the Lancer never caught on.
 
tonycondon said:
Seeing that Champion Lancer for sale a few months ago made me realize how perfect of a multi trainer it is.
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Unfortunately, it is not only imperfect, but inadequate, as a ME trainer, because it does not meet the FAA requirements for the ME practical test, since (if you look closely), you cannot feather the props, and feathering is a required element of the ME practical test.
01274192.jpg
 
bummer. maybe they could get an exception.
 
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