Twinkie's value.

Aztec Driver

Aztec Driver

Line Up and Wait
Joined
Mar 7, 2005
Messages
982
Location
Elizabethtown, PA
Display Name
Bryon
Home Airfield
LNS
Not that I am willing to sell my Precious, but since my partner no longer has a job, and I get very little time to fly it, I was wondering what my aircraft might actually sell for. There seems to be so much disparity between aircraft pricing and it is hard to tell what is a good price.

Unfortunately I am way behind the cost curve on it, but, hey,it has everything I like and flies the way I want it to.

1966B Twin Comanche serial 1154
4 seat model.
two IO320 160 hp engines, ~ 1300 hours SMOH
Good compressions and low oil usage
Props ~1300 hours
Gear bungees replaced 2011
Gear AD done in 2010, ~250 hours ago
Single panel Aspen PFD1000 unit
Garmin 430W
STEC30 w/alt hold linked to Aspen and 430W for GPSS steering.
KX155 nav/com
 
I'm sorry, but in this market, this being a twin and all, 50k is all I'm gonna be able to give you for it. Press down hard, top copy is yours :).



Sounds like a nice plane . Prices for PA30 are all over the map with condition ranging from junker to pampered pride and joy. Haven't looked in a while, with the current avionics you should get a good price, the 'seasoned' engines nonwithstanding.
 
Agreed, $50-60K or so, but with the Garmin, Aspen and S-tec all tied together, $70-80K?
 
A friend is interested. PM a spec sheet if you decide to sell.
 
Henning said:
Yep, see, no one will make it worth selling so you may as well keep it. :D
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Sure looks that way. Guess I'll have to pony up even more money and do the interior and paint, maybe put the new "WOW" cowls on, alternator STC, the list could go on and on....
 
Aztec Driver said:
Quite right, I'm sure, but I keep looking at single engines that are faster and keep thinking it'd be nice to trade.
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You'll be disappointed returning to a single after all your time in twins. It's just not the same once you get used to it. I'm about as biased towards twins as Gecko is towards experimentals, but when I get in a single it just feels wrong.

Now, if you decide that you don't want the plane anymore, that's another matter entirely.
 
Ted DuPuis said:
You'll be disappointed returning to a single after all your time in twins. It's just not the same once you get used to it. I'm about as biased towards twins as Gecko is towards experimentals, but when I get in a single it just feels wrong.

Now, if you decide that you don't want the plane anymore, that's another matter entirely.
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Basically I am trying to come up with a value to pay off my partner. Paying from what we have in it after it has devalued so much would cost me a lot more and I don't believe it would be fair to me.
 
AOPA has their valuation service if you're a member. At least it's neutral. I've used it in the past to determine what to charge partners. I suspect whatever you come up with will be a disappointment to your partner, so best to have it documented by a third party of some sort.
 
OTOH, you may find that it's a huge relief to be free of the extra expense and aggravation of a twin, and that flying is suddenly fun again. BTDT.

Ted DuPuis said:
You'll be disappointed returning to a single after all your time in twins. It's just not the same once you get used to it. I'm about as biased towards twins as Gecko is towards experimentals, but when I get in a single it just feels wrong.

Now, if you decide that you don't want the plane anymore, that's another matter entirely.
Click to expand...
 
Yeah, picking numbers out of a hat is better than pulling them out of thin air. Whatever you do, don't obtain a professional appraisal of the plane. Only banks and guys who want to remain friends after the buy-out do that.
steingar said:
AOPA has their valuation service if you're a member. At least it's neutral. I've used it in the past to determine what to charge partners. I suspect whatever you come up with will be a disappointment to your partner, so best to have it documented by a third party of some sort.
Click to expand...
 
wabower said:
Yeah, picking numbers out of a hat is better than pulling them out of thin air. Whatever you do, don't obtain a professional appraisal of the plane. Only banks and guys who want to remain friends after the buy-out do that.
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:rofl::rofl::rofl:
 
Aztec Driver said:
Not that I am willing to sell my Precious, but since my partner no longer has a job, and I get very little time to fly it, I was wondering what my aircraft might actually sell for. There seems to be so much disparity between aircraft pricing and it is hard to tell what is a good price.

Unfortunately I am way behind the cost curve on it, but, hey,it has everything I like and flies the way I want it to.

1966B Twin Comanche serial 1154
4 seat model.
two IO320 160 hp engines, ~ 1300 hours SMOH
Good compressions and low oil usage
Props ~1300 hours
Gear bungees replaced 2011
Gear AD done in 2010, ~250 hours ago
Single panel Aspen PFD1000 unit
Garmin 430W
STEC30 w/alt hold linked to Aspen and 430W for GPSS steering.
KX155 nav/com
Click to expand...

Between $65k & $110 depending on the difference in condition I can't see (if it's worth less, it's not worth buying, he'll have to give it to you or file a lien.) so long as the engines come back with a solid on inspection. Don't change the oil before I show up. What is the AD status on your props?
 
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wabower said:
Yeah, picking numbers out of a hat is better than pulling them out of thin air. Whatever you do, don't obtain a professional appraisal of the plane. Only banks and guys who want to remain friends after the buy-out do that.
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We will have no problems remaining friends. We both realize the market conditions, especially when it comes to twin values.

No need for a professional appraisal, unless I decide to sell, which, so far, I don't want to do.

My only concern is that it won't get enough use to justify ownership. Between primary work and charter flying, I don't have a lot of extra time for flying in my own airplane. I have only gotten 30-50 hours in each of the last two years.
 
Is that consistent with your "price not fair to me" in post #11?

Aztec Driver said:
We will have no problems remaining friends. We both realize the market conditions, especially when it comes to twin values.

No need for a professional appraisal, unless I decide to sell, which, so far, I don't want to do.

My only concern is that it won't get enough use to justify ownership. Between primary work and charter flying, I don't have a lot of extra time for flying in my own airplane. I have only gotten 30-50 hours in each of the last two years.
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I'm beginning to think that if I offered to pay someone to take my Warrior off my hands, I wouldn't be able to do it because we could never agree on the amount.

John
 
John Baker said:
I'm beginning to think that if I offered to pay someone to take my Warrior off my hands, I wouldn't be able to do it because we could never agree on the amount.
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No one bit yet? I'll happily take any non-negative amount your offering and the Warrior. ;)

(I may be dumb, but I'm not stupid! Haha!)
 
John Baker said:
I'm beginning to think that if I offered to pay someone to take my Warrior off my hands, I wouldn't be able to do it because we could never agree on the amount.

John
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Sorry you're having trouble unloading your aircraft. I imagine it isn't easy these days.

I haven't flown much mroe than 30-50 hours/year since I started flying.
 
Aztec Driver said:
Basically I am trying to come up with a value to pay off my partner. Paying from what we have in it after it has devalued so much would cost me a lot more and I don't believe it would be fair to me.
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I'd agree with that. We all know that if you spend $20,000 on a plane, you might be lucky for it to add $10,000.

I think more than anything, you need to find a price that both you and he will be happy with, which may or may not have much to do with market value.

wabower said:
OTOH, you may find that it's a huge relief to be free of the extra expense and aggravation of a twin, and that flying is suddenly fun again. BTDT.
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As with everything, depends on the specifics. No secret that I'm biased. And although I would have half the probability of having yesterday's magneto failure in a single (with the subsequent coughing and sputtering engine), in a twin it was a non-event. I'll stick to my bias for now.
 
Ted DuPuis said:
As with everything, depends on the specifics. No secret that I'm biased. And although I would have half the probability of having yesterday's magneto failure in a single (with the subsequent coughing and sputtering engine), in a twin it was a non-event. I'll stick to my bias for now.
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that is something that I try to bring up in the long term economics of a twin. The option of feathering a sick engine prior to destruction to instigate a minor repair to put back in service has a value over every event causing destruction.
 
Ted DuPuis said:
I'd agree with that. We all know that if you spend $20,000 on a plane, you might be lucky for it to add $10,000.

I think more than anything, you need to find a price that both you and he will be happy with, which may or may not have much to do with market value.



As with everything, depends on the specifics. No secret that I'm biased. And although I would have half the probability of having yesterday's magneto failure in a single (with the subsequent coughing and sputtering engine), in a twin it was a non-event. I'll stick to my bias for now.
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That's kind of what I am looking at. A middle ground. I am leaning to around 75K - 80K. VREF puts it at around 74K, we have 105K in it.

I am not really interested in "downgrading" to a single. :D I rarely fly just for the fun of it, I usually go to get somewhere, and when I do, I want to get there quickly and I don't want to drive. The fact that it is fun to go there is icing on the cake. I just get enough hours in the charters, and I am able to rent the charter planes occasionally, so I don't have a lot of use for it, except that it is waaaayyyy cheaper to operate than an Aerostar.
 
Aztec Driver said:
That's kind of what I am looking at. A middle ground. I am leaning to around 75K - 80K. VREF puts it at around 74K, we have 105K in it.
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Your numbers are probably reasonable given your situation. If you sold it, you might get Vref for it. But if you are happy paying your partner $35-40k for his half (and he's happy with that), then it seems win-win to me.

I am not really interested in "downgrading" to a single. :D I rarely fly just for the fun of it, I usually go to get somewhere, and when I do, I want to get there quickly and I don't want to drive. The fact that it is fun to go there is icing on the cake. I just get enough hours in the charters, and I am able to rent the charter planes occasionally, so I don't have a lot of use for it, except that it is waaaayyyy cheaper to operate than an Aerostar.
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That is, of course, another question and one to look at. I had, at one point, considered just flying the Navajo since that's something I have available to fly. Of course, then I would never fly because of the hourly operating cost. It is nice to have the option available, though, and I have taken advantage of it on a few occasions when it was warranted.
 
And to which nobody but you and a few other twin zealots pay any attention because your "immediate destruction" scenario is a bogus argument. Twin owners seem to look for situations where precautionry shutdowns can be performed in order to brag about the redundancy. Classic case of bulls-eyes around the bullet holes. I have some of those those stories too. Single owners just fly home and get it fixed.

Henning said:
that is something that I try to bring up in the long term economics of a twin. The option of feathering a sick engine prior to destruction to instigate a minor repair to put back in service has a value over every event causing destruction.
Click to expand...
 
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If I had my druthers, I 'd have a four engine C-130. I'd outfit 3/4s of the cargo bay into a flying home. The other 1/4 would be where I parked my Jeep. Flying to exotic destinations would be a lot of fun. You'd have a place to stay, and wheels for ground operations.

However, due to my economic situation, I fly my Warrior now and then, sometimes even stopping for a hamburger at places like Borrego Valley or French Valley, but usually Brown Field.

So far this year, I've flown 2.3 hours. I think my enthusiasm might be starting to wane.

-John
 
wabower said:
And to which nobody but you and a few other twin zealots pay any attention because your "immediate destruction" scenario is a bogus argument. Twin owners seem to look for situations where precautionry shutdowns can be performed in order to brag about the redundancy.
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I may have in the past, but my current philosophy is not to shut down a running engine unless I have reason to believe it will stop running. Example: catastrophic oil leak (not minor oil leak). On my mag failure the other day which had the left engine bucking like a rodeo bull, I left it running, diverted, and landed. In a single I would've needed new shorts.

Classic case of bulls-eyes around the bullet holes. I have some of those those stories too. Single owners just fly home and get it fixed.
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If they make it. A mag failure by FAA regulations is allowed to reduce your available power by up to 15%. Doesn't sound like a big deal until you've got some other problem that goes with the mag failure, and ends up reducing power further. Dropped or detonating cylinders come to mind (both of which have happened to me on mag failures).

Failed alternators and vacuum pumps are other examples where redundancy is nice. Of course, these are possible to backup on a single, but typically aren't.
 
A good friend of mine practically had to give his stunningly gorgeous Aerostar away last year. He couldn't even get a nibble until he put a $50K glass cockpit in the thing, and then it was all low-ball offers -- one of which he eventually took.

You would have to pay me to take a twin, with avgas at $6/gallon and rising.
 
Ted DuPuis said:
If they make it. A mag failure by FAA regulations is allowed to reduce your available power by up to 15%. Doesn't sound like a big deal until you've got some other problem that goes with the mag failure, and ends up reducing power further. Dropped or detonating cylinders come to mind (both of which have happened to me on mag failures).
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Well, this is certainly fresh for me, as I just yesterday got my plane back after experiencing a complete mag failure on my Lycosaur O-540. (The coil, which my A&P gave back to me, has a hole burnt right through the side. The electricity decided it would be more fun to arc through the side of the coil, into the mag housing, rather than going down those boring old wires...)

The only symptom (other than a failed mag check, pre-flight) was a more leisurely rate of climb. Nothing on the JPI or fuel flow indicated a problem. The redundant system worked as advertised.
 
Jay Honeck said:
Well, this is certainly fresh for me, as I just yesterday got my plane back after experiencing a complete mag failure on my Lycosaur O-540. (The coil, which my A&P gave back to me, has a hole burnt right through the side. The electricity decided it would be more fun to arc through the side of the coil, into the mag housing, rather than going down those boring old wires...)

The only symptom (other than a failed mag check, pre-flight) was a more leisurely rate of climb. Nothing on the JPI or fuel flow indicated a problem. The redundant system worked as advertised.
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What brand of spark-plugs ?
 
weilke said:
What brand of spark-plugs ?
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Um, hmmm. They're fine-wire. Can't remember what brand off the top of my head.

Why, can spark plugs cause the coil to fail? If not, what DOES cause a coil to do what this one did?
 
Jay Honeck said:
Um, hmmm. They're fine-wire. Can't remember what brand off the top of my head.

Why, can spark plugs cause the coil to fail? If not, what DOES cause a coil to do what this one did?
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There has been an issue with some fine-wire plugs in that they develop high resistance accross the resistor pack. It should be 1.5 kOhm or so, some have been found to have 50 kOhm or more. If you have high resistance accross the plug, the electricity will search itself a different path some of the time. In addition to engine roughness, this is believed by some to cause damage to the magnetos. Pull the plugs and measure their resistance from the contact to the electrode. If they are not up to spec, replace them.
 
Jay Honeck said:
A good friend of mine practically had to give his stunningly gorgeous Aerostar away last year. He couldn't even get a nibble until he put a $50K glass cockpit in the thing, and then it was all low-ball offers -- one of which he eventually took.

You would have to pay me to take a twin, with avgas at $6/gallon and rising.
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I use 21gph at 180kts a 210 uses 17 at 160. On a 540nm trip that's 63 gallons or $378. The 210 will take 58 gallons or $348, a difference of $30 or five and a half cents a mile extra.
 
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