Twin pilots, opinion on this approach

Don Jones

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I was flying with my cheif flight instructor yesterday, helping him prep for the ATP ride. He was flying this approach(we were visual with no hood) just trying to work the numbers. We were starting the approach at COSES at 9000(the mea) flying the Baron. WAAS 430. Problem we were having was getting the thing down to the glideslope intercept altitude outside of the FAF. We were running 15" mp, approach flaps(10) and finally had to drop the gear to get down in time. I know 9.8 miles sounds like plenty of time, but we sure were not doing something right. The only time we got it close to right just seemed extremely aggressive for an ATP ride. Any suggestions? I am going to be doing this soon in the multi ride so I am trying to get a handle on it now.
 

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If I'm reading it right, you're going to be coming from 9000' to 6400' in 9.8nm. At 150KTs, that's about 663fpm. Is it possible to get that in the Baron without the gear out without gaining speed? Does that rate itself just seem excessive to you? If so, request to hold as published at COSES to lose altitude. You could certainly slow down more before you reach the IAF to get a more sedate descent rate going. If you do it at 120KTs you're still about 20KTs above blue line (I think it's about 100KTs in the Baron) and can use a 530fpm descent rate.

OTOH, I'm not a "twin driver," so take it with a salt lick!
 
I was flying with my cheif flight instructor yesterday, helping him prep for the ATP ride. He was flying this approach(we were visual with no hood) just trying to work the numbers. We were starting the approach at COSES at 9000(the mea) flying the Baron. WAAS 430. Problem we were having was getting the thing down to the glideslope intercept altitude outside of the FAF. We were running 15" mp, approach flaps(10) and finally had to drop the gear to get down in time. I know 9.8 miles sounds like plenty of time, but we sure were not doing something right. The only time we got it close to right just seemed extremely aggressive for an ATP ride. Any suggestions? I am going to be doing this soon in the multi ride so I am trying to get a handle on it now.

Why wouldn't you normally drop the Gear at the FAF?
:dunno:

It's SOP in a Bonanza.
 
If I'm reading it right, you're going to be coming from 9000' to 6400' in 9.8nm. At 150KTs, that's about 663fpm. Is it possible to get that in the Baron without the gear out without gaining speed? Does that rate itself just seem excessive to you? If so, request to hold as published at COSES to lose altitude. You could certainly slow down more before you reach the IAF to get a more sedate descent rate going. If you do it at 120KTs you're still about 20KTs above blue line (I think it's about 100KTs in the Baron) and can use a 530fpm descent rate.

OTOH, I'm not a "twin driver," so take it with a salt lick!

Problem we had was keeping it below 165. Yes it was taking 600+ fpm to get down there and it sure felt really agressive(probably cause I am used to doing it at 90). I had visions of screaming passengers, not really, but you know what I mean. Sure would be spooky doing it in the soup. We spend all our time flying these approaches in 172's with students and it's definately difficult getting used to flying a slipery twin dang near twice as fast. I did tell my cfi to look at it on the bright side, the chances of him getting to fly this approach with both of them running were slim and none!:yes: It should be easier to slow it down then.
 
Why wouldn't you normally drop the Gear at the FAF?
:dunno:

It's SOP in a Bonanza.

We were having to drop the gear 10 miles from the FAF in order to get the rate of descent we needed and to keep the airspeed down to a reasonable number. Is that standard procedure in the Baron? Lance?
 
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663 fpm is not an overly aggressive descent rate. Slow it down far enough PRIOR to IAF to be stabilized at that speed, 120 KIAS would likely be better, and bring in approach flaps for the descent. Drop the gear at FAF as normal. 700-800 fpm descent rates are common even on the final approach segments of non-precision approaches. You just need to manage the power on a clean bird well before the descent begins.
 
Let's say you're at 150 KIAS at this point, to stay just under gear and approach flap speed. 8000 MSL, add 2% per thousand feet, that's an extra 16% for TAS. Now you're doing about 172 knots TAS. No wind, 9.8 miles will take you just under 3.5 minutes. 2600 feet in 3.5 minutes is about 750 fpm. You're NOT going to do that at 15" with just approach flaps without exceeding 150 KIAS in a Baron. You'll need the gear. 500 fpm is kind of a stretch at 15".

Even if you started at 120 KIAS, you'd probably find yourself accelerating through 150 without the gear.

Fly safe!

David
 
If one plans ahead and slows to/configures for approach speed before reaching COSES (rather than blasting in at or near cruise speed), it's a piece of cake. Why try to fly it any faster? Maybe that was the point being made by doing this on an ATP ride -- ATP's should be thinking farther ahead of the plane than to hit COSES at cruise speed/configuration if they must maintain 9000 to that point.
 
In my P-Baron, normal approach speed is 120 knots, 21" of MP, approach flaps, gear down which gives 600 fpm which works great on an ILS. So, that rate of descent is pretty normal. Of course, if one goes faster, the rate of descent should be faster. I'm accustom to keeping MP up to do 150 knots if faster traffic is behind. Higher rate of descent of course.

Best,

Dave
 
A 3-degree normal rate of descent is 5 times your groundspeed so if you were doing 150 knots, the normal rate of descent is 750 ft/min. That should not have felt "aggressive" (as in a steep angle) although it might have felt "fast". If you slow down to 120 knots normal rate of descent would be 600 ft/min.
 
As an aside(?), I note that the LNAV/VNAV minima are 60' lower, but require an additional 1/4 mile visibility. For the military folk, the MDA is the same but the LNAV/VNAV still requires the additional 1/4 mile visibility. That isn't unique to this approach (see Bar Harbor GPS-22, http://204.108.4.16/d-tpp/0805/00992R22.PDF on the civilian side). Why is that?
 
The GPS 12R at KVGT is very similar. You have to lose 2300 feet in five miles, after a pretty tight turn. In the Seminole, you pretty much have to drop the gear at SAYQO to get down to 5000 by KIHMY and 3800 by BEWIH. I never could figure out any other way to make it down in time. Even starting at blue line around SAYQO or AMUWY, it's still just too steep without the gear. This was a very popular approach amongst DEs (I had to shoot it for my II ride). If you were doing good, you got vectors to KIHMY...if you had been struggling and needed to prove yourself, you started at AJPOG, and had to hang on for the ride!
 
If I'm reading it right, you're going to be coming from 9000' to 6400' in 9.8nm. At 150KTs, that's about 663fpm. Is it possible to get that in the Baron without the gear out without gaining speed? Does that rate itself just seem excessive to you? If so, request to hold as published at COSES to lose altitude.

Problem is, the hold at COSES is at 9,000 feet so you're not gonna get anywhere...

Sounds like slowing early is the ticket! I'm gonna have to get that pounded into my head, I'm the one that does cruise+5 down the glideslope to a mile final in the 182 drag-o-matic! :goofy:
 
Problem we had was keeping it below 165. Yes it was taking 600+ fpm to get down there and it sure felt really agressive(probably cause I am used to doing it at 90).

Why not keep the speed up? Either that or slow it down way back. 600-750 fpm is not particularly aggressive in my book.
 
I figured the rate of descent wasn't really that agressive, just felt that way to me being used to slower aircraft. Problem we were having is, we would slow to 140 before coses, put in approach flaps and start down. No way it was going to stay at 140. Yes at first he(chief cfi) was barreling into COSES at cruise. I talked him out of that. It became necessary to put the gear down to keep the speed below flap speed. So speed going up, needed rate of descent has to go up right? I will just have to spend more time before my ride to get a handle on flying that fast slippery bird. I will get some more time with him next week in it to see if we can work it out. If 15" isn't low enough is it kosher to pull power back more and just let the gear horn scream? Real problem is neither of us has much experience flying this plane on approaches. Practice makes perfect. He has been flying with a 20000 hour cfi airline guy and he hasn't helped him any either.
 
The GPS 12R at KVGT is very similar. You have to lose 2300 feet in five miles, after a pretty tight turn. In the Seminole, you pretty much have to drop the gear at SAYQO to get down to 5000 by KIHMY and 3800 by BEWIH. I never could figure out any other way to make it down in time. Even starting at blue line around SAYQO or AMUWY, it's still just too steep without the gear. This was a very popular approach amongst DEs (I had to shoot it for my II ride). If you were doing good, you got vectors to KIHMY...if you had been struggling and needed to prove yourself, you started at AJPOG, and had to hang on for the ride!

Sounds like the problem zactly!!
 
In my P-Baron, normal approach speed is 120 knots, 21" of MP, approach flaps, gear down which gives 600 fpm which works great on an ILS. So, that rate of descent is pretty normal. Of course, if one goes faster, the rate of descent should be faster. I'm accustom to keeping MP up to do 150 knots if faster traffic is behind. Higher rate of descent of course.

Best,

Dave

Wow that's interesting Dave, no way we could get that kind of rate without the airspeed being 160 or so and we had 15".
I am starting to wonder if we really had "approach flaps" It's been repainted and there are no flap indicators on it, hmmmm. I think he uses the old 1001, 1002, 1003 method. Light bulb is on!!!
 
Wow that's interesting Dave, no way we could get that kind of rate without the airspeed being 160 or so and we had 15".
I am starting to wonder if we really had "approach flaps" It's been repainted and there are no flap indicators on it, hmmmm. I think he uses the old 1001, 1002, 1003 method. Light bulb is on!!!
As far as I know, Vlo in Barons is between 130-152, depending on model. So I hope you weren't doing 160 with the gear down :no:

That aside, given a 600 fpm descent, I don't think the Baron would do 160 KIAS at 15'' MP, even without flaps. Something doesn't sound right.

I do now know that the "standard" approach speed on a 2 NM final for a Beech 1900 appears to be 200 knots. Quite surprising ;) :D

-Felix
 
Wow that's interesting Dave, no way we could get that kind of rate without the airspeed being 160 or so and we had 15".
I am starting to wonder if we really had "approach flaps" It's been repainted and there are no flap indicators on it, hmmmm. I think he uses the old 1001, 1002, 1003 method. Light bulb is on!!!

Don:

Which Baron are you flying? I found both the 55 and 58 will really come down with throttles back compared to my A-36. Take a look at the KSEE approach sometime. I could never get down on the step downs in the A-36 without the gear down; no problem in either Baron.

I'd suggest you get your numbers right on some normal ILS type descents.
Get the numbers at 120 and 150 approach speeds. Putting the gear down at FAF or GS intercept is normal and you should be able to have an approach MP, flaps setting that will give you 120 and 150 in either the 55 or 58. Keeping the gear up at FAF or GS intercept is unusual and a variation in procedure. I've done it with faster traffic behind me, but do several gear down checks at some checkpoint like breaking out with higher ceilings. Low ceilings mean normal 120 knot approach with gear down unless there's a lot of runway.

A lot of folks don't use approach flaps in the Baron. In the P, they are really useful in slowing the plane down and being able to maintain higher MP in the descent. At SIMCOM we had a big debate about approach flaps. The one place we found they really made some difference was on an IMC approach was if you lose one while descending. It's really difficult to tell which engine is out with power back. Approach flaps helped on differentiate better. I never used them in the 55, but they really make a difference in the P.

We do a lot of long descents with the P and keeping MP a bit higher can add flexibility.

Best,

Dave
 
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As far as I know, Vlo in Barons is between 130-152, depending on model. So I hope you weren't doing 160 with the gear down :no:

-Felix

Excellent point. Vlo in the P is 176 knots below 16,000 feet. In the 55 or my A-36, if I came down with the gear up (which I have done at busy airports with faster traffic behind) I had to nose the plane up on short final to get below gear speed. I did this at El Paso once in VMC conditions and kept 180 indicated until about 1/4 mile final, pulled the nose up, dropped the gear and flaps and touched down about half way down the long runway; was able to turn off to the FBO. But, it was VMC, very long runway and I knew the airport. Did something like that going into Lindbergh once.

Quite funny. The tower fella told me to maintain maximum forward speed as long as possible; jet traffic behind me. I turned off and while taxiing to the FBO asked ground where the jet traffic that behind me was. Three mile final and thanks was the answer.


Best,

Dave
 
Excellent point. Vlo in the P is 176 knots below 16,000 feet. In the 55 or my A-36, if I came down with the gear up (which I have done at busy airports with faster traffic behind) I had to nose the plane up on short final to get below gear speed. I did this at El Paso once in VMC conditions and kept 180 indicated until about 1/4 mile final, pulled the nose up, dropped the gear and flaps and touched down about half way down the long runway; was able to turn off to the FBO. But, it was VMC, very long runway and I knew the airport. Did something like that going into Lindbergh once.

Quite funny. The tower fella told me to maintain maximum forward speed as long as possible; jet traffic behind me. I turned off and while taxiing to the FBO asked ground where the jet traffic that behind me was. Three mile final and thanks was the answer.


Best,

Dave
I had to go look at the book. It is a BE-55 and the numbers we were using were in MPH. Vlo is 150 mph and Vle is 165. So that wasn't an issue. The book I have here does not have the "approach flaps" number(or any other for that matter). What amount of flaps is it that you use Dave?
 
I do now know that the "standard" approach speed on a 2 NM final for a Beech 1900 appears to be 200 knots. Quite surprising ;) :D

-Felix

:rofl::rofl: Wow, whoever flies that must be a really good pilot! :goofy:

That said, our normal descent rate on a precision approach is in the 600-700fpm range, and significantly faster on most of the non-precision approaches we have out here (and when they tell us to "keep our speed up"). No one seems to mind - or know the difference - so long as the pitch over is smooth (so don't hit the waypoint and shove the nose down :hairraise:). A smooth reduction in power and a little bit of trim...no one is the wiser.
 
Excellent point. Vlo in the P is 176 knots below 16,000 feet. In the 55 or my A-36, if I came down with the gear up (which I have done at busy airports with faster traffic behind) I had to nose the plane up on short final to get below gear speed. I did this at El Paso once in VMC conditions and kept 180 indicated until about 1/4 mile final, pulled the nose up, dropped the gear and flaps and touched down about half way down the long runway; was able to turn off to the FBO. But, it was VMC, very long runway and I knew the airport. Did something like that going into Lindbergh once.

Quite funny. The tower fella told me to maintain maximum forward speed as long as possible; jet traffic behind me. I turned off and while taxiing to the FBO asked ground where the jet traffic that behind me was. Three mile final and thanks was the answer.
I'm jealous. 176 Vlo is impressive! Sigh....
 
Under most circumstances, there is no reason not to slow to appch speed PRIOR to reaching the IAF. Many twin pilots [and pilots of high-perf singles] do this. This means you are flying the procedure turn [if appropriate], holds, etc. at appch speed. Many Baron pilots use 120 kts. It isn't written in stone, which is why it is good you two are practicing this stuff now. It is also one reason why twins often have an appch flap setting which is higher than depicted on the white arc of the a/s indicator for flap operation. Slow down to appch speed before reaching the appch. This is what many of us do for generic pattern work: slow down to pattern speed before entering the pattern. A few trials will tell you when to begin this. It is how one stays ahead of the aircraft, particularly in IMC and under the pressures of a low-IMC inst. appch. Actually, someone going for the initial multi rating should know all this, so perhaps I am not answering the question....
 
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With the manifold pressure reduced to below governing range, pushing the props full forward will get you a ton of flat-plate drag....you can come back in with the props as you approach your target altitude. Just another tool if gear speed is a problem.

Bob Gardner
 
I had to go look at the book. It is a BE-55 and the numbers we were using were in MPH. Vlo is 150 mph and Vle is 165. So that wasn't an issue. The book I have here does not have the "approach flaps" number(or any other for that matter). What amount of flaps is it that you use Dave?

Yea, that always messed me up when flying the older 55s, but on some, there is also a knots marking on the indicator. 120 is a great speed because it converts to rate of descent so easily; as has been said, five times on the GS equals 600 fpm in a no wind condition.

The P-Baron has an approach flap position which is 15 degrees. One can go around with these flaps in and get a decent rate of climb on one engine (I'm not suggesting this); they slow the plane without adding the drag of full flaps. Approach flaps in the P can be deployed at 177 IAS below 21,000.

I completely agree with the point being made about slowing before the IAF or at least well before you will be making a decent. Some GPS approaches have long legs with little or no decent. I have the plane at 21" of MP, approach flaps and slowed to near 120 IAS before I will be descending. On an ILS, about 5 miles from GS intercept I put it in the approach configuration. When I intercept the GS, all I have to do is pitch down a couple degrees and extend the gear.

On long legs of a gps, I may keep speed up until 5 miles from FAF if the initial leg is level. Once again, 5 miles from the FAF or where the descent will begin, initial approach configuration.

What used to happen at KSEE (San Diego, Gillespie) was there was a long decent from the intersection off the airway (Baret) with step down fixes. If I came off the airway at cruise speed and immediately began a decent, airspeed would get high and rate of decent would go up. Good VFR day or high ceilings, I'd just keep power up, nose over clean and reduce power later, raise the nose, extend the gear and put in approach flaps. If it was low IMC, I'd slow down about 5 miles from Baret on the airway and put it in the initial landing configuration. Seemed to take forever to get down at 120 knots, but completing the approach was first and foremost.

Barons have a wonderful ability to lose altitude if need be: as Bob said, props forward, MP back, approach flaps and a slip if it's VMC. I can come down 4,000fps straight ahead as stated above. Put in a slip and you can come down more.

Sounds to me as if you just need to get used to the speed and configuration. I'd really suggest you try a couple with approach flaps and without. Most folks I know that fly the 55 don't use approach flaps, but you should know what they can do for you and when they could be helpful. Practice two approach speeds: 120 and one faster, say 150. Not for your ATP ride, but for practical reasons when mixing with faster traffic.

Best,

Dave
 
Why not keep the speed up? Either that or slow it down way back. 600-750 fpm is not particularly aggressive in my book.
Problem is that eventually you'll have to slow down to get the gear/flaps down, and then you'll be time-compressed, requiring a big throttle chop -- not good for engines. If you see this coming, better to slow down and configure early.
 
I'm jealous. 176 Vlo is impressive! Sigh....

Hey, how about the TwinStar - Vlo=Vle=Vne=194 KIAS. While crawling all over a DA42 the other week to get to know it, I really looked hard at the gear and it is a very stout system. :yes:
 
Hey, how about the TwinStar - Vlo=Vle=Vne=194 KIAS. While crawling all over a DA42 the other week to get to know it, I really looked hard at the gear and it is a very stout system. :yes:
That's not bad, but Vne=194 and the tiny cabin of the DA42 would be a step in the wrong direction..... B)
 
That's not bad, but Vne=194 and the tiny cabin of the DA42 would be a step in the wrong direction..... B)

Slow (cruise), yes... Tiny, no. Cabin is quite a bit wider than the Beeches, and at 6'4" I actually fit quite comfortably even in the back seat. I wouldn't suggest anyone taller than me get into one, though... :no:
 
Slow (cruise), yes... Tiny, no. Cabin is quite a bit wider than the Beeches, and at 6'4" I actually fit quite comfortably even in the back seat. I wouldn't suggest anyone taller than me get into one, though... :no:
Wider, maybe, but much shorter. Overall, the cabin volume is tiny, compared to a 6 seater Bo/Baron. Kind of reminded me of an SR22 with it's tiny cabin. Personally, I like having space for 5 suitcases in the back + 4 people who have 4' of legroom. I guess it's not a fair comparision since it is a 4 seater.

Anyways, sort of besides the point :) Sorry.
 
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Don, three things come to mind about your question.

1) You must be aware of your groundspeed. At 9000 MSL your groundspeed would be almost 180 Kt in still air and with a 15 Kt tailwind component you'd be close to 200 Kt groundspeed. This will have a noticeable effect on your feet per mile of descent.

2) Approach flaps are between 12 (half) or 20 degrees in a Baron depending on the model. Some of the earlier models don't specify that you can lower any flaps above Vfe (around 120 KIAS in the B55) but IME there's no harm in lowering up to half flaps at or below Vle (152 KIAS).

3) If your IAS starts to climb above 150 Kt you can further reduce power a couple ways. One is to decrease the RPM to the bottom of the governing range (2100) and the other is to lean the mixture aggressively as far as you can without making the engine run rough.

4) If that doesn't work, drop the gear. I would expect that on this approach, you would need the gear out unless there was at least a 10-15 Kt headwind, especially if you left the mixture fairly rich and were running more than 2100 RPM. I generally plan on 120-180 feet/nm (20 kt TW to 20 Kt HW) on a descent in a clean configuration and near cruise power. Reducing power to min RPM, MP, and fuelflow should almost double that and I think that half flaps would add another 10-20% (assuming you wanted to stay below Vle whether or not you had flaps out). That means you ought to be able to achieve 300-350 ft/nm which would lose 2900-3400 ft (you needed 2600) in 9.8 nm assuming you were already slowed down prior to crossing COSES on this approach. Not much margin for error but doable. Another option (in smooth air) might be to leave the flaps up and run the airspeed up to the top of the green arc. This will give you a steeper descent angle but it also means a much higher vertical speed, something that's not very passenger friendly and you would then have to fight with getting slow enough to lower the gear at the FAF.
 
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Don, three things come to mind about your question.

1) You must be aware of your groundspeed. At 9000 MSL your groundspeed would be almost 180 Kt in still air and with a 15 Kt tailwind component you'd be close to 200 Kt groundspeed. This will have a noticeable effect on your feet per mile of descent.

2) Approach flaps are between 12 (half) or 20 degrees in a Baron depending on the model. Some of the earlier models don't specify that you can lower any flaps above Vfe (around 120 KIAS in the B55) but IME there's no harm in lowering up to half flaps at or below Vle (152 KIAS).

3) If your IAS starts to climb above 150 Kt you can further reduce power a couple ways. One is to decrease the RPM to the bottom of the governing range (2100) and the other is to lean the mixture aggressively as far as you can without making the engine run rough.

4) If that doesn't work, drop the gear. I would expect that on this approach, you would need the gear out unless there was at least a 10-15 Kt headwind, especially if you left the mixture fairly rich and were running more than 2100 RPM. I generally plan on 120-180 feet/nm (20 kt TW to 20 Kt HW) on a descent in a clean configuration and near cruise power. Reducing power to min RPM, MP, and fuelflow should almost double that and I think that half flaps would add another 10-20% (assuming you wanted to stay below Vle whether or not you had flaps out). That means you ought to be able to achieve 300-350 ft/nm which would lose 2900-3400 ft (you needed 2600) in 9.8 nm assuming you were already slowed down prior to crossing COSES on this approach. Not much margin for error but doable. Another option (in smooth air) might be to leave the flaps up and run the airspeed up to the top of the green arc. This will give you a steeper descent angle but it also means a much higher vertical speed, something that's not very passenger friendly and you would then have to fight with getting slow enough to lower the gear at the FAF.

Awesome info Lance, I will get a chance to work on this next week with him so hopefully we will get it figured out.
Thanks everyone for the info
 
I have no input of any value--as I've never flown a plane that I need to worry about speed until I cross the runway numbers. But this thread made me realize a few things I hadn't before.
 
You need either flatplate drag or gear. Gear down would be the simplest solution.......BTDT.
 
You need either flatplate drag or gear. Gear down would be the simplest solution.......BTDT.
Except when the hobbs meter is wired to the gear up light, and you get paid by the hobbs hour. Then you put the gear down at the normal FAF and not a second before!
Plan ahead and bring in full prop drag and partial flaps.
 
as I've never flown a plane that I need to worry about speed until I cross the runway numbers. But this thread made me realize a few things I hadn't before.
and you're a smart guy for thinking about it now. You'll likely get the chance to fly bigger & faster planes. Getting down & slowing down, whether enroute or shooting an approach, is an important piloting skill and essential to staying ahead of the airplane.
 
and you're a smart guy for thinking about it now. You'll likely get the chance to fly bigger & faster planes. Getting down & slowing down, whether enroute or shooting an approach, is an important piloting skill and essential to staying ahead of the airplane.

Boy I had never really thought about it Lance. I didn't have any trouble learning to stay ahead of it just flying around VFR, but shooting approaches is another ball of wax entirely. It sure will keep you on your toes trying to keep up with one of these planes, and the old BE-55 Baron isn't all that fast. I can't imagine what it's like to fly the jets you and Dave Taylor have been flying.
 
Boy I had never really thought about it Lance. I didn't have any trouble learning to stay ahead of it just flying around VFR, but shooting approaches is another ball of wax entirely. It sure will keep you on your toes trying to keep up with one of these planes, and the old BE-55 Baron isn't all that fast. I can't imagine what it's like to fly the jets you and Dave Taylor have been flying.
I hadn't previously thought much about staying ahead either. It's really opened my eyes (and made my Mooney flying a lot better). I like the mental exercise of having to start a descent 135 miles out, going down 6000 fpm with spoilers out and engines at idle and still being too high cause ATC couldn't let us start down sooner, planning to be at 250 kts when we hit 10,000' and being at 200 kts when I'll need flaps. I get a little better each flight, ask a lot of questions about using the tools the airplane has available, and continuously going over the various handbooks we have to know the operating limitations. Oh, and to get down in a Learjet slipping is NOT an option :p.
 
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