Turns around a point in a low wing

AV8R_87

Pre-takeoff checklist
Question for the CFIs here (but not limited to them), what is your method for teaching turns around a point (and S-turns) in a low wing?
On a high wing you can usually place the reference point on (or in the vicinity) of the main gear, but on a low wing your reference point is obscured by the wing.

How do you make a perfect turn without banking it 60 degrees?

I have ten hundred fifty billion hours in low wings and my 'point' has never been obscured by the wing.

Just like I would in a high wing. Eyeball it.
You shouldn’t be fixated on the single point. Look at the surrounding area. If the goal is to fly a consistent radius around that point, look at all of the thingies on the ground that intersect that arc circle, you’re about to fly. That barn, then that tree, then that cow pooping in the field, then that fence, etc.

You may lose sight of the point for a few seconds now, and again, but if you’re looking at the big picture, you shouldn’t wander off of your circle.

Same idea for S-turns on a road.

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I have ten hundred fifty billion hours in low wings and my 'point' has never been obscured by the wing.

Just like I would in a high wing. Eyeball it.
You shouldn’t be fixated on the single point. Look at the surrounding area. If the goal is to fly a consistent radius around that point, look at all of the thingies on the ground that intersect that arc circle, you’re about to fly. That barn, then that tree, then that cow pooping in the field, then that fence, etc.

You may lose sight of the point for a few seconds now, and again, but if you’re looking at the big picture, you shouldn’t wander off of your circle.

Same idea for S-turns on a road.

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That's similar to my current method - drop the wing some more, take a look, continue.
Wasn't sure if there was a better way.

Just like I would in a high wing. Eyeball it.
You shouldn’t be fixated on the single point. Look at the surrounding area. If the goal is to fly a consistent radius around that point, look at all of the thingies on the ground that intersect that arc circle, you’re about to fly. That barn, then that tree, then that cow pooping in the field, then that fence, etc.

You may lose sight of the point for a few seconds now, and again, but if you’re looking at the big picture, you shouldn’t wander off of your circle.

Same idea for S-turns on a road.

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This^^^

It can be extrapolated into traffic patterns, circle-to-land, cross-country flying, lots of things. Being able to scan rather than fixate is a basic flying skill, whether looking inside or outside of the airplane.

Turns around a point are about judging the effects of wind on bank angle and on maintaining a constant radius. You should be able to judge that radius without reference to a part of the airplane because you won't always be flying the same aircraft.

You could just drive the plane on the ground around the point. ;-> Seriously, altitude makes a big difference In TaP.

It is also possible to obscure the point with the wing of a Cessna, depending on altitude, radius from the point, & winds.

Put your reference point just off the wing tip. Imagine a string from your nav light the the point. Same with a S turns when your wing tips meet your line start or finish your turn. I find reference maneuvers waay easier in a low wing.

Put your reference point just off the wing tip. Imagine a string from your nav light the the point. Same with a S turns when your wing tips meet your line start or finish your turn. I find reference maneuvers waay easier in a low wing.

Just put the point on the wingtip. Works for high and low wing aircraft.

Just put the point on the wingtip. Works for high and low wing aircraft.
That’s not a turn around a point…at least unless it’s dead calm. You’re actually looking for a ground track that maintains a constant distance from the point, so actually seeing the point is largely irrelevant anyway.

That’s not a turn around a point…at least unless it’s dead calm. You’re actually looking for a ground track that maintains a constant distance from the point, so actually seeing the point is largely irrelevant anyway.
How is it not? Where you place the object doesn’t matter, you’re simply adjusting bank angle to maintain a constant radius turn around a chosen point.

How is it not? Where you place the object doesn’t matter, you’re simply adjusting bank angle to maintain a constant radius turn around a chosen point.
If you’re flying the segments of the circle that have crosswind, your wingtip will need to be either in front of or behind the point to maintain the proper radius.

If you’re flying the segments of the circle that have crosswind, your wingtip will need to be either in front of or behind the point to maintain the proper radius.
Right, but there’s nothing that says where the reference point has to be on the aircraft, as long as you demonstrate proper bank angle to maintain a constant radius around your point.

Bank angle for downwind/upwind segments. Crab angle for crosswind segments. On the crab segments the wingtip will be in front of or behind the point.

At least that is how it was taught in the 80’s.

Here is my crude description, you should only briefly looking at the center point. instead you should be looking at the points you are going to fly over and the direction you are flying.
points to fly over circled in red. Arrows showing direction you should be going which should be parallel to the section lines, if you have section lines available.

I prefer entering perpendicular to the Road rather than the 45deg entry the image above shows.

Brian
CFIIG/ASEL

Right, but there’s nothing that says where the reference point has to be on the aircraft, as long as you demonstrate proper bank angle to maintain a constant radius around your point.
Agreed. But ”put(ting) the point on the wingtip” and “simply adjusting bank angle” is definitely incorrect.

Agreed. But ”put(ting) the point on the wingtip” and “simply adjusting bank angle” is definitely incorrect.
Difference of opinion I guess.

Difference of opinion I guess.
so you’re saying the wingtip is never in front of or behind the wingtip?

so you’re saying the wingtip is never in front of or behind the wingtip?

I can confidently say the answer to this is a resounding no.

I can confidently say the answer to this is a resounding no.
Then why is there a “difference of opinion”?

Question for the CFIs here (but not limited to them), what is your method for teaching turns around a point (and S-turns) in a low wing?
On a high wing you can usually place the reference point on (or in the vicinity) of the main gear, but on a low wing your reference point is obscured by the wing.

How do you make a perfect turn without banking it 60 degrees?
Just out of interest, what airspeed are you using?

so you’re saying the wingtip is never in front of or behind the wingtip?
Wait, isn’t that what the rudder is for? LOL.

Just out of interest, what airspeed are you using?

Guess we perform the maneuver differently. I pick a point, place it off the wingtip and adjust my bank angle accordingly to give a constant radius. Works exactly the same as if I place point on the main gear, halfway up the strut, etc.

Guess we perform the maneuver differently. I pick a point, place it off the wingtip and adjust my bank angle accordingly to give a constant radius. Works exactly the same as if I place point on the main gear, halfway up the strut, etc.
If you’re keeping the wingtip pointed at the point, you’re doing a different maneuver. If you’re keeping it halfway up the strut as you change bank angle, you’re doing something else entirely.

Here is my crude description, you should only briefly looking at the center point. instead you should be looking at the points you are going to fly over and the direction you are flying.
points to fly over circled in red. Arrows showing direction you should be going which should be parallel to the section lines, if you have section lines available.

View attachment 125604

I prefer entering perpendicular to the Road rather than the 45deg entry the image above shows.

Brian
CFIIG/ASEL
I think part of the problem is the distance to the center (reference) point. High wing training uses points closer to the aircraft (at least that was my experience). I got used to that specific distance when practicing those maneuvers. Should I increase that distance when practicing in a low wing?

Just out of interest, what airspeed are you using?
See the above comment. It's all a sight picture thing, I'd say my typical point is looking down 20-25 degrees at 1000-1500' AGL. That's about half to three quarters of a mile.

If you’re keeping the wingtip pointed at the point, you’re doing a different maneuver.
Works for 8’s on Pylon’s too.

Works for 8’s on Pylon’s too.
Works for 8s on, but not turns around.

See the above comment. It's all a sight picture thing, I'd say my typical point is looking down 20-25 degrees at 1000-1500' AGL. That's about half to three quarters of a mile.
How do you adjust your sight picture as You go around the circle to maintain a constant radius?

In the high wing it was a case of look ahead to see if there's any drift, with occasional glances at the reference point to ensure the radius stayed more or less constant.

In the low wing, I tend to pick a secondary reference in front of the wing (a crude case of trying to anticipate the curved path) and I lower the wing every now and then to make sure the turn radius is still the same.

In the "wild", it seems like 80% of pilots don't understand turns around a point. Years ago when I started my CFI training with a retired FAA ASI, the first maneuver he wanted me to learn how to teach was turns around a point because so many people get it wrong.

In the high wing it was a case of look ahead to see if there's any drift, with occasional glances at the reference point to ensure the radius stayed more or less constant.

In the low wing, I tend to pick a secondary reference in front of the wing (a crude case of trying to anticipate the curved path) and I lower the wing every now and then to make sure the turn radius is still the same.
So why not pick a path/spots on the ground to fly over to ensure your radius? That will be much more accurate than trying to judge distance by depth perception.

the first maneuver he wanted me to learn how to teach was turns around a point because so many people get it wrong
I'm pretty sure the way I was taught was a shortcut version that "worked" in the high wing but doesn't work in the low wing.
So why not pick a path/spots on the ground to fly over to ensure your radius?
See above. Never had a CFI explicitly mention "pick a path on the ground that follows your intended turn". The reference point was always the reference.

See above. Never had a CFI explicitly mention "pick a path on the ground that follows your intended turn". The reference point was always the reference.
See @dmspilot ’s post #32 above.

See above. Never had a CFI explicitly mention "pick a path on the ground that follows your intended turn". The reference point was always the reference.
Because there isn’t one specific way to accomplish the maneuver, which some here don’t seem to understand and that’s OK. It’s the same as having a variety of DPE’s interpreting regs differently.

You’re simply demonstrating the concept of adjusting bank angle to maintain a constant radius of turn around a point - that’s it. How you accomplish that doesn’t matter, as long as your altitude remains +-100ft. There’s nothing that states you must use a certain spot on the aircraft or follow a path that follows your intended turn. That’s just a technique, amongst lots of other things. I can’t tell you how many instructors have several different ways of setting up for and performing the same maneuver.

Because there isn’t one specific way to accomplish the maneuver, which some here don’t seem to understand and that’s OK. It’s the same as having a variety of DPE’s interpreting regs differently.

You’re simply demonstrating the concept of adjusting bank angle to maintain a constant radius of turn around a point - that’s it. How you accomplish that doesn’t matter, as long as your altitude remains +-100ft. There’s nothing that states you must use a certain spot on the aircraft or follow a path that follows your intended turn. That’s just a technique, amongst lots of other things. I can’t tell you how many instructors have several different ways of setting up for and performing the same maneuver.
Some also don’t seem to understand that, while different techniques are appropriate, there are things that are Actually incorrect ways to do them. If the point doesn’t move in front of or behind the wing (or whatever reference point you’re using), you’re not doing a turn around a point.

Some also don’t seem to understand that, while different techniques are appropriate, there are things that are Actually incorrect ways to do them. If the point doesn’t move in front of or behind the wing (or whatever reference point you’re using), you’re not doing a turn around a point.
Is the radius around the chosen point increasing or decreasing? No? Then you’re demonstrating the concept correctly.

Is the radius around the chosen point increasing or decreasing? No? Then you’re demonstrating the concept correctly.
Are you maintaining coordinated flight? No. The. You’re doing the maneuver incorrectly.

It's all a sight picture thing, I'd say my typical point is looking down 20-25 degrees at 1000-1500' AGL. That's about half to three quarters of a mile.

I will say if you do your ground ref maneuvers at 1500 AGL then you’ll get to watch the DPE start filling out the notice of disapproval on the way back to the airport…

The payoff for these maneuvers is in the traffic pattern. So, do them at traffic pattern altitudes.

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