Turning too slow

4

4RNB

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4RNB
I am 20+ hours into my IFR training. When I am using plane automation many of my turns are taking too long and further corrections are later required. It seems to me that the automation should work better or more smoothly. I know now to hand fly such turns. My plane is equipped with Garmin GNS 175 GPS, Dual Garmin G5s, and a Vizion Trutrak autopliot.

There are two switches for the autopilot power. The first is just for power, is normally left on for GPSS steering. The second turns on the heading based control, this gets turned on, mode button used to change to heading, I move the cursor/prompt to the desired heading, press the knob. Sometimes the turns really take a while to come in. Certainly NOT the immediate need being impressed on me by CFII and later the controller when they turn me again.

Moving the heading bug on either of the G5s thus far has not produced a turn.

Am I lacking in knowledge in some manner using this equipment or is this just how it is going to be with my set up? I've written to the former plane owner to ask his opinion.

Thank you.
 
I have no experience with that autopilot, though I do with most other common GA autopilots. But yes, the response to a heading change should be pretty immediate. Most autopilots have some kind of rate adjustment, either through entering a diagnostic mode or via internal adjustments (that would require an avionics shop).

However, it's also possible that you're just using it wrong. Most autopilots operate pretty similarly (I mean, there are only so many ways to tell it to track a heading or a course, right?) so an experienced CFI should be able to help even if they have no direct experience with this exact model. The former owner could be very helpful too, of course.

And the heading bug on the G5 not functioning could mean it's just not connected to the autopilot.
 
You should have a selector or toggle switch for EFIS or GPSS you can only run on one or the other. If EFIS is selected and the autopilot is engaged the autopilot will take its commands from the G5. If GPSS is selected and the autopilot is engaged it will take its commands from the 175.
Watch this video. It's the best video I've found on how the Trutrak works. He doesn't have the same equipment as you but it should work the same.
 
And, it looks like (I could be wrong), when using the Track selection knob on the A/P, I believe that gives you the GPS track; OK for your enroute flight plan, but not for vectors from ATC. When they say "fly heading xxx" they want a basic heading, not a wind corrected track.
 
Jim Carpenter said:
And, it looks like (I could be wrong), when using the Track selection knob on the A/P, I believe that gives you the GPS track; OK for your enroute flight plan, but not for vectors from ATC. When they say "fly heading xxx" they want a basic heading, not a wind corrected track.
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Yes that is true. If you use the track select knob it will fly a ground track. If you use the G5 heading bug it will fly a heading. So if you select EFIS and engage the autopilot it will fallow the heading bug on the G5 and the selected altitude on the G5 if you have an altitude bugged. It's a pretty easy autopilot to use but like any autopilot you need to understand what it will do depending on what you select.
 
You have to learn your knobology. The basics, for example, an STEC AP are this:

If the autopilot is put in "heading" mode the G5s can control the autopilot using heading commands. If GPSS is enabled on the G5s, they will issue course heading commands based on the selected route on the GPS navigator. (This is typical for enroute and approach ops.) If GPSS is disabled on the G5s, they will issue course heading commands to follow the heading bug. (This is a possible arrangement If maneuvering at the request of ATC and not hand flying.)

If the autopilot is put in "track" mode, it will follow the selected NAV track independent of the G5s but will ypically not have GPSS capability unless the AP has independent GPSS installed. (This is a typical mode for tracking a VOR signal. Not that there is much need for that.)

If the autopilot is put into its most basic mode, e.g. "wing leveler", then it can follow turn commands issued by the autopilot controls but will not track the GPS or VOR signals. (This is an alternative mode for manually maneuvering.)

Other rate-based autopilots will work similarly, but the names of the various modes may be different. It can be a bit complicated to sort out at first. For the G5/STEC combo, that's basically four different operational modes, which may require configuring three devices (AP, G5s, GPS) properly. I dont know how many times I set up the GPS to intercept the departure route and had the AP start to slew around to follow the heading bug in some other direction. (Forgot to enable GPSS on the G5s.) Or the AP did not respond. (Not in heading mode.) Darn knobology.
 
4RNB said:
Certainly NOT the immediate need being impressed on me by CFII
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Your CFII should know your equipment well enough to determine whether this is an equipment problem or an operator problem. If he’s not willing to educate himself or find someone who can, I’d say you also have an instructor problem.
 
MauleSkinner said:
Your CFII should know your equipment well enough to determine whether this is an equipment problem or an operator problem. If he’s not willing to educate himself or find someone who can, I’d say you also have an instructor problem.
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Harsh. I instruct in numerous different aircraft. I expect my students to know their equipment and how to use it. If they want to pay me to download the manual. Read it completely and thoroughly, spend 30 -60 minutes in their aircraft learning the button/knobs/settings, etc. I am happy to do that. But I don't work for free and don't expect others to do so.
 
Arnold said:
Harsh. I instruct in numerous different aircraft. I expect my students to know their equipment and how to use it. If they want to pay me to download the manual. Read it completely and thoroughly, spend 30 -60 minutes in their aircraft learning the button/knobs/settings, etc. I am happy to do that. But I don't work for free and don't expect others to do so.
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My experience is that students don’t have a clue, need guidance, and that should be part of the instructor’s job. This thread supports that experience.

I have no issues with instructors getting paid for what they do, but I have issues with ignorant indifference, particularly on the part of instructors. And apparently the OP’s instructor doesn’t know or care whether his student is mismanaging the automation, or whether the airplane is even technically airworthy. But he’s charging for giving instruction in it.
 
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Arnold said:
Harsh. I instruct in numerous different aircraft. I expect my students to know their equipment and how to use it. If they want to pay me to download the manual. Read it completely and thoroughly, spend 30 -60 minutes in their aircraft learning the button/knobs/settings, etc. I am happy to do that. But I don't work for free and don't expect others to do so.
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I am also an instructor who is rarely in the same model aircraft twice in a row. But I do expect myself to have a working knowledge of the equipment in any client's airplane. No, I may not know every possible setting and option for unusual equipment, but I should know at least the basics. And for common stuff (like the Garmin 430/530/650/750/G1000, retrofit glass panels like the G5 and Aspen, common autopilots like the Century, STEC and Garmin series) I expect myself to be extremely familiar and conversant in all major operating modes and settings and most minor functions. If a client came to me looking for training in their aircraft with a TruTrak autopilot, you can bet I'll be downloading the manual beforehand and reading through it.

Heck, I just looked. Assuming I got the right model, it's only 40 pages, and about 10 of those are table-of-contents and blank and such. I figure it would only take about 10 minutes to read through it, especially since lots of information will be similar enough or identical to what I already know that I won't have to read in any detail. I see that as my responsibility as a CFI, especially if I was instructing the OP, who is having problems operating his autopilot.
 
Hmm, don’t you think doing a little hand flying would better prepare you for instrument flying?
 
MBDiagMan said:
Hmm, don’t you think doing a little hand flying would better prepare you for instrument flying?
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As autopilot use in an airplane equipped with one is expected on the checkride, it seems like a reasonable question for an IFR student to ask.
 
RussR said:
I am also an instructor who is rarely in the same model aircraft twice in a row. But I do expect myself to have a working knowledge of the equipment in any client's airplane. No, I may not know every possible setting and option for unusual equipment, but I should know at least the basics. And for common stuff (like the Garmin 430/530/650/750/G1000, retrofit glass panels like the G5 and Aspen, common autopilots like the Century, STEC and Garmin series) I expect myself to be extremely familiar and conversant in all major operating modes and settings and most minor functions. If a client came to me looking for training in their aircraft with a TruTrak autopilot, you can bet I'll be downloading the manual beforehand and reading through it.

Heck, I just looked. Assuming I got the right model, it's only 40 pages, and about 10 of those are table-of-contents and blank and such. I figure it would only take about 10 minutes to read through it, especially since lots of information will be similar enough or identical to what I already know that I won't have to read in any detail. I see that as my responsibility as a CFI, especially if I was instructing the OP, who is having problems operating his autopilot.
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I didn't mean to suggest that an instructor should not have a working knowledge of routinely seen equipment. And if a student isn't able to figure out the equipment they have I'll certainly help them.
 
RussR said:
As autopilot use in an airplane equipped with one is expected on the checkride, it seems like a reasonable question for an IFR student to ask.
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I agree that the pilot should know and understand their avionics, this is a big part of any type rating these days. That said, they should be able to hand fly an ILS to mins if they have the equipment installed.
 
RussR said:
As autopilot use in an airplane equipped with one is expected on the checkride, it seems like a reasonable question for an IFR student to ask.
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I have the TruTrak in my plane. As far as I know it’s still not certified for coupled approaches. During my IFR check ride the DPE only let me use it while briefing approaches, basically straight and level. By the way. If Im ever in OKC I’m definitely going to book you for a few hours! I’m always impressed with your comments!
 
AlphaMike said:
.
I have the TruTrak in my plane. As far as I know it’s still not certified for coupled approaches. During my IFR check ride the DPE only let me use it while briefing approaches, basically straight and level. By the way. If Im ever in OKC I’m definitely going to book you for a few hours! I’m always impressed with your comments!
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Hah! Thanks, come on out any time!
 
AlphaMike said:
You should have a selector or toggle switch for EFIS or GPSS you can only run on one or the other. If EFIS is selected and the autopilot is engaged the autopilot will take its commands from the G5. If GPSS is selected and the autopilot is engaged it will take its commands from the 175.
Watch this video. It's the best video I've found on how the Trutrak works. He doesn't have the same equipment as you but it should work the same.
Click to expand...

So he adjusts the track at about 7:56 in the video, it seems to turn slowly, though I am sure the video is edited.
If anyone goes and looks near that time stamp, does it seem to turn right away? Watch the track on the GPS...
 
AlphaMike said:
Yes that is true. If you use the track select knob it will fly a ground track. If you use the G5 heading bug it will fly a heading. So if you select EFIS and engage the autopilot it will fallow the heading bug on the G5 and the selected altitude on the G5 if you have an altitude bugged. It's a pretty easy autopilot to use but like any autopilot you need to understand what it will do depending on what you select.
Click to expand...

Is this the AP you have or use? How QUICKLY does it turn? My CFII is not happy with speed and ATC has twice commented on turns being too slow.

I need to try another thing. There are two toggle switches for the AP. My assumption has been that one was for power, the other for heading mode. Perhaps I need to see what happens when just the heading mode switch is on and the other one is off.
 
MauleSkinner said:
Your CFII should know your equipment well enough to determine whether this is an equipment problem or an operator problem. If he’s not willing to educate himself or find someone who can, I’d say you also have an instructor problem.
Click to expand...

I've owned the plane since December so I will take the blame for this. This is the fifth flying instructor I've had and I would judge this one as highly competent. He normally flies in school planes, up to 8 hours a day. no instructor problem in my book.
 
AlphaMike said:
.
I have the TruTrak in my plane. As far as I know it’s still not certified for coupled approaches. During my IFR check ride the DPE only let me use it while briefing approaches, basically straight and level. By the way. If Im ever in OKC I’m definitely going to book you for a few hours! I’m always impressed with your comments!
Click to expand...

How quickly does it turn in heading mode? Can you tell me how the power switches are set up on it? Mine has two, I put them both on to try and fly heading mode.
 
4RNB, yes I have the Trutrak in my 182. I've had it for about a year in a half (around 220 hours). I have 2 toggle switches. One is a power on/off switch. The other is a selector switch for EFIS or GPS. EFIS is my G5s and GPS is the GTN750 in my plane. If I put the selector switch on EFIS and engage the autopilot the plane will turn and fallow the heading bug on the G5. It turns almost instantly with no noticeable lag.
 
Your G5 has a gain setting. It controls how aggressively it follows a GPS track. I think the Garmin default setting is 1.0. Sounds like you need to bump it a bit. You should work with your avionics shop to get it sorted.
 
Hang 4 said:
Your G5 has a gain setting. It controls how aggressively it follows a GPS track. I think the Garmin default setting is 1.0. Sounds like you need to bump it a bit. You should work with your avionics shop to get it sorted.
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thank you, should I suspect this when it functions well in gps mode but not heading mode?
 
Other way around. I think there’s a similar setting for your AP. Think this is an equipment issue not an operator one.
 
4RNB said:
I've owned the plane since December so I will take the blame for this. This is the fifth flying instructor I've had and I would judge this one as highly competent. He normally flies in school planes, up to 8 hours a day. no instructor problem in my book.
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It’s your money. You can set the bar wherever you like.
 
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MauleSkinner said:
It’s your money. You can set the bar wherever you like.
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When I was introduced to my CFII she asked for a list of equipment that I had installed in the plane. She had never used a JPI 900 or the Trutrak autopilot. Before we had our first lesson she made sure she understood how to use everything. Now she's flying for Delta, but whenever she's home she always texts me to go shoot some approaches or work on commercial maneuvers. I have no intentions of ever flying as a commercial pilot but she is always pushing me to get the rating.. says it will make me a better pilot.. Anyway good CFIIs are hard to find!
 
Well, while I have not flown it yet, I think I have figured out the AP turn issue. I hate to say it here, publicly, it is a real doozy.
So, I've got an AP manual, but it did not have this page in.
I was searching for the manual to send to a safety pilot/CFII. While looking at the table of contents, saw something different, listed like G5 mode. The page is attached.
I swear I've seen this EXT HDG stuff before on the GPS.

But I've always read it as "exit" HDG, ie exit using the autopilot. So I panicked and pressed more buttons to make that go away.

EXTernal HeaDingG EXTernal ALTitude!

I hope my sharing this gives you a chuckle. I will certainly enjoy having the system work better! And I will likely print out this better manual!AP.PNG
 
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