Turning crosswind....ASAP!

RyanB

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So I’ve been thinking, as we know, the engine failure on takeoff is one of the absolute worst times for a failure to occur. Most of us are taught to turn the crosswind leg when we’re 300’ below pattern altitude (or thereabouts). I don’t like this because it puts you too far from the airport environment and makes it unlikely to return to the runway if the fan ever decided to stop. If you have plenty of fields off the departure end of the runway, than great, but not all of us do.

My idea and many probably already do this, would be to turn the crosswind asap or a climbing turn right into the downwind (at the very least offset yourself 45deg from the extended centerline). By doing this, you keep the airplane close to the airport and have a much greater probability of being able to return to the runway.

Obviously it will not work at every airport or situation. Think of it like departing runway 1 @ DCA...that climbing left hand turn right after getting airborne.

What sayeth you? Nothing is foolproof, but what are the issues that I’m not thinking of with this idea?
 
I think if you're 300' below pattern you are somewhere around 700' AGL.

Depending how soon after that turn you lose the fan you should be able to declare and return to the runway.

Once you declare you don't have to turn to the back course final. You can continue your turn in the same direction and head for the pavement.

The other variables are the length of the runway and the height of the buildings on the airport, but it seems plausible to continue the turn and return to even the center of the runway to land. I'd rather do that and overrun the runway than land off field.

Next comes the CFI's thoughts...
 
I think if you're 300' below pattern you are somewhere around 700' AGL.

Depending how soon after that turn you lose the fan you should be able to declare and return to the runway.

Once you declare you don't have to turn to the back course final. You can continue your turn in the same direction and head for the pavement.

The other variables are the length of the runway and the height of the buildings on the airport, but it seems plausible to continue the turn and return to even the center of the runway to land. I'd rather do that and overrun the runway than land off field.

Next comes the CFI's thoughts...
Good point.

At 700’AGL I wouldn’t want to be making a 180deg turnback, though. At that altitude it would just be 30deg left and 30deg right or straight ahead. So my thinking is that by flying a climbing turn ASAP or offsetting yourself from the extended centerline, there would be less maneuvering needed to get yourself pointed back toward the airport. Like you say, it would all depend on where and when you would lose the engine.

As I say, nothing is foolproof but it’s just some food for thought.
 
You do not want to make a crosswind turn..ASAP. Just when is ASAP?
Depends on the runway, if on a 10,000ft runway, why turn away at 200ft AGL?
Most control tower operators will not want you to turn before the end of the of the runway.

Having climbed above pattern altitude by mid field, I have asked the tower for permission to turn on course.

I have had an engine roll back, lose power just below pattern altitude while on crosswind. Plenty of altitude to turn around and land opposite direction.
 
I think it’s always going to depend on climb performance of the aircraft you’re flying and the specific airport you’re flying from. If I don’t turn xwind until I’m at 700’ agl at the home field then I might be a CFIT statistic.
 
My instructor made me practice the impossible turn at altitude (with a pause) to see how much altitude I would lose. That way it would never be an impossible turn..
 
Depends a lot on your aircraft's performance. At SEE I'm basically at TPA by the end of the runway if I'm flying the 172N/180 at half tanks and only me..

PS, I'm not advocating it, but 700 should be plenty to make a 180. In a lightly loaded 172 I can do a full 360 power off and only lose about 700-800 (best glide, coordinated, standard rate). Worth trying these at altitude to get a better feel for your plane. AND, in a real engine out you'll know how many orbits to do above your field before attempting the landing
 
My home airport has a second runway, perpendicular to the "usual" one at the end of it, like an "L". It also has a third runway, gravel. And several very long taxiways, one of which would make a good 180-degree destination (without having to expend the extra 90 degrees to align with the departure runway).
There is also nothing good directly ahead after takeoff; you're aimed directly at a downtown full of buildings and cars and people.

So I, too, plan to turn back to the field. Maybe turn 90 degrees and make the other runway on the "L". Or 180 for a taxiway. In either case, I'm far less likely to hit a person on the ground. It's a big field with lots of taxiways and airplane parking, with far less density of human life than anything straight ahead.
...but of course all this is rather unique to my home field.
 
So I’ve been thinking, as we know, the engine failure on takeoff is one of the absolute worst times for a failure to occur. Most of us are taught to turn the crosswind leg when we’re 300’ below pattern altitude (or thereabouts).

My crusty musty old guy told me to turn crosswind when two conditions were met: at least 400' agl and reaching the opposite end of the runway.
 
The FAA recommends the turn to crosswind begin about 300’ before pattern altitude. The idea is to be at pattern altitude turning downwind so as not to still be climbing on the downwind, where you could climb into another plane already on downwind.

Such was not my practice. It is now.

And thanks to whoever pointed out the FAA guidance to me.
 
My idea and many probably already do this, would be to turn the crosswind asap or a climbing turn right into the downwind (at the very least offset yourself 45deg from the extended centerline).
In many planes at many airports that's going to have you entering the downwind midfield or sooner and very low. Probably not the best option for keeping the peace with the local pilots and residence alike.
 
The FAA recommends the turn to crosswind begin about 300’ before pattern altitude. The idea is to be at pattern altitude turning downwind so as not to still be climbing on the downwind, where you could climb into another plane already on downwind.

Such was not my practice. It is now.

And thanks to whoever pointed out the FAA guidance to me.
Yes, that is a concern that I thought about. As I mentioned it all depends on the situation.
 
I never understood the “don’t turn before 400’ agl” (not to speak of 700ft. agl) rule as whether to turn or not greatly depends on the environment. We have absolutely nothing good laying ahead of us on either runway heading. Actually, somehow making it back to the runway appears to be best option for a forced landing. I therefore don’t seen any point in putting more distance between me and runway than needed.

After takeoff, I therefore initiate only a shallow climb, clean up the plane, accelerate to Vy and then initiate a shallow turn while continuing to climb at Vy. That way, I climb at the best rate, what also happens to be the best glide speed and stay relatively close to the runway.

Sure, if our airport would be 10,000 ft. long and / or surrounded by farmland I would continue on the runway heading, Ours is however only 2,300 ft. long and embedded in an urban environment, what also means whatever runway I have left become useless pretty much the moment I take off.

Mettetal.jpg
 
I never understood the “don’t turn before 400’ agl” (not to speak of 700ft. agl) rule as whether to turn or not greatly depends on the environment. We have absolutely nothing good laying ahead of us on either runway heading. Actually, somehow making it back to the runway appears to be best option for a forced landing. I therefore don’t seen any point in putting more distance between me and runway than needed.

After takeoff, I therefore initiate only a shallow climb, clean up the plane, accelerate to Vy and then initiate a shallow turn while continuing to climb at Vy. That way, I climb at the best rate, what also happens to be the best glide speed and stay relatively close to the runway.

Sure, if our airport would be 10,000 ft. long and / or surrounded by farmland I would continue on the runway heading, Ours is however only 2,300 ft. long and embedded in an urban environment, what also means whatever runway I have left become useless pretty much the moment I take off.

View attachment 67248
How does a shallow climb help?
 
How does a shallow climb help?

I want to accelerate to Vy as fast as possible for a number of reasons: Best climb performance, but also for better control over the plane and because I want to have a comfortable margin to stall speed in case the engine fails during climb out. At Vx for example, our plane is climbing at a very steep angle and would in case of an engine failure rapidly decelerate and stall, unless I aggressively push it over pretty much immediately. Also, in case of an engine failure at Vx I would first have to dive to accelerate to best glide speed.

Edit: Speed can always be converted into altitude, I am therefore not giving anything up by accelerating first and climbing later.
 
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I do what the terrain and surroundings dictate. Coming back isn’t always a wise option. Know your surroundings and have a plan. Piloting 101.

This.

I can't say I do the exact same thing every time because every situation is different. Even at familiar airports when the wind changes from normal it will be different.
 
My CFI has me turning Cross-Wind once flaps come up, so 500ft AGL.
 
My solution is to perform a reverse overhead break, especially in the 172. :) Also helps me work on my accelerated spins from trying to climb like a fighter jet!
 
The general guidance is well established and has been for many decades. Few seem to be aware of it or, even if they are, follow it.

The wheel was invented long ago. We do not need to continually try to reinvent it.

I never understood the “don’t turn before 400’ agl” (not to speak of 700ft. agl)
400' AFL comes from TERPS and applies to instrument departures and how obstacle clearance is calculated.

The AIM recommends that aircraft remaining in the pattern fly the departure leg until within 300' of the traffic pattern altitude prior to turning crosswind. The reason for this recommendation is so that the airplane will be at TPA about the same time that they are turning downwind so as to avoid continuing to climb on downwind creating a collision hazard. Many mistakenly learned this as "500' AFL" back when most TPAs were 800' AFL.
 
Speed can always be converted into altitude, I am therefore not giving anything up by accelerating first and climbing later.

While speed can be converted to altitude, doing so isn't as efficient as climbing at Vy. Over a given time interval, you will always be at a lower altitude if any speed other than Vy is used during any part of the climb. Vy is the best rate of climb.
 
I never understood the “don’t turn before 400’ agl” (not to speak of 700ft. agl) rule as whether to turn or not greatly depends on the environment. We have absolutely nothing good laying ahead of us on either runway heading. Actually, somehow making it back to the runway appears to be best option for a forced landing. I therefore don’t seen any point in putting more distance between me and runway than needed.

After takeoff, I therefore initiate only a shallow climb, clean up the plane, accelerate to Vy and then initiate a shallow turn while continuing to climb at Vy. That way, I climb at the best rate, what also happens to be the best glide speed and stay relatively close to the runway.

Sure, if our airport would be 10,000 ft. long and / or surrounded by farmland I would continue on the runway heading, Ours is however only 2,300 ft. long and embedded in an urban environment, what also means whatever runway I have left become useless pretty much the moment I take off.

View attachment 67248

Wellll you know, there just might other planes entering the pattern or established on downwind. So what the FAA 'recommends' in AC 90-66B basically strives to keep everyone apart.

https://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/media/Advisory_Circular/AC_90-66B.pdf
 
Starting an early turn will cost you altitude. If you're worried about staying close to the airport climb out at Vx. Either way, it's really not going to buy you that much...
 
My instructor made me practice the impossible turn at altitude (with a pause) to see how much altitude I would lose. That way it would never be an impossible turn..
My instructor also had me practice the "impossible turn". But being the sadistic bastard that he was, we did it under actual conditions. :eek:
But I learned that with proper training, the turn is not "impossible" after reaching decent altitude, for the airplane involved. (they are all different)
 
I don't care what I'm flying or where.
I stay a little high and a little fast until I know I'm home.
Then I figure out the details before I get to the ground.
Going out I just reverse the process.
 
My instructor also had me practice the "impossible turn". But being the sadistic bastard that he was, we did it under actual conditions. :eek:
But I learned that with proper training, the turn is not "impossible" after reaching decent altitude, for the airplane involved. (they are all different)
Altitude is not the only factor. If the climb angle is less than the minimum achievable glide angle under existing conditions, then depending on the runway length, there may not be ANY altitude that will work, unless you climb in the pattern.
 
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