TSA Hypothetical

murphey

murphey

Touchdown! Greaser!
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murphey
Let us assume there is a pilot who has no internet access (no email, no web, etc). The only information the pilot gets/acquires is thru the AFD, sectionals, weather reports, call to Flight Service and NOTAMs. (Have I left anything out?)

On June 1 this pilot travels from home (an untowered, no scheduled airline service) to one of the airports that only recently came under the aegis of the TSA Security Directive (you know that one - badges or escort).

Also, remember that not every airport with sporadic scheduled airline service has a tower (hard to believe, but true).

1. How is that pilot going to know the new rules? Will AFSS read them to him/her?
2. How is the pilot going to comply with the new rules if the tower (and FBO) is closed?

Just curious.
 
Not a problem -- the FBO provides an escort when a transient aircraft lands, whether there's an operating tower or not. The badges are only for based pilots desiring unescorted access. If you're looking at a no-tower airport when the FBO is closed, I suppose airport management will have to come up with a plan for that situation.

Remember -- this new rule only applies at airports with air carrier service with aircraft of more than 60 seats, and that's not a huge number of airports. I wonder how many airports with such service don't have someone on duty 24/7 to meet and escort transient pilots. The ones with "sporadic" service generally don't have aircraft that big.
 
My philosophy:

1) Ignore it. If they feel the need to escort you, fine, but I'm certainly not going to waste time figuring out if they are going to.

2) I bet that most FBOs won't bother.

That said, I find it to be very surprising that a 12,500lbs aircraft could carry 60 people. Incredible :p

-Felix
 
This is one of the cases where if they go hysterical and start screaming at me because they had to escort me and didn't, ... the 500 mile stare.

I once had a guy chasing me and screaming at me at a printing plant where I was let in to work because they weren't supposed to do that. "WE HAVE NEGOTIABLE SECURITIES IN HERE!" Well then, maybe you should have trained your staff to control access and explain the policy to visitors. BTW, thanks for telling me the stuff is valuable. What was I doing there? Servicing the security system. :dunno:
 
Ron Levy said:
Remember -- this new rule only applies at airports with air carrier service with aircraft of more than 60 seats.
Click to expand...

I've noticed you mention the 60 seat thing a couple of times now. Where is that part comeing from. AOPA said, in an email to me, that it was all part 139 airports.

This was a few weeks back.
 
Of course, FBOs and even airport police think this is a useless rule. So, they don't really care what you do and they make fun of the TSA.

Recently, I was at a major carrier airport in SoCal. They fly 737s in there all the time. It was 11pm, the FBO had closed (or so I thought, in fact they had stayed open for me), and so I was trying to figure out how to get to my plane. Stopped by the airport police station and told the two officers smoking outside that I needed to get over that fence and to my plane.

Officer: Ok, where's your plane?
Me: At XXX FBO.
Officer: Oh ok, umm, don't go to the TSA, they're just going to search you. Why don't you call this number to our dispatch, and ask for operations. They'll help you out.
...
Me: Hello? Yeah I need to get to my plane...could you open the gate for me?
Dispatch: Oh yeah, I'll send someone, just follow him.

5 minutes later, I was next to my plane in my car. The officer left as soon as we got through the gate.

Laughable.

-Felix
 
I'm waiting for this madness to reach Alaska, and have them try to control access to FAI or any of dozens of airports served by Alaska Air 737's. Some fencing contractor somewhere is going to stumble onto the mother lode.
 
alaskaflyer said:
I'm waiting for this madness to reach Alaska, and have them try to control access to FAI or any of dozens of airports served by Alaska Air 737's. Some fencing contractor somewhere is going to stumble onto the mother lode.
Click to expand...

LOL! Sounds like the TSA's brain surgeons really need to get out more.

BTW, I just emailed this to AOPA:
______________________

Dear AOPA,

On an AOPA Web page it is stated that

"Pilots should take note that SD-08F is not meant to affect pilots traveling from one GA airport to another; nor is its intent to impact GA pilots stopping at commercial airports for a touch and go or fuel stop."

http://www.aopa.org/advocacy/articles/2009/090409tsa.html

According to the version of the security directive that has been made public (against the TSA's wishes), this is incorrect. It directs airports to require badges for any individual who has unescorted access to the airport operations area. (See section IIC1.) Thus, the only way for an individual to be in the AOA without an escort will be to have a badge for that airport.

If it truly is the TSA's intent that this security directive not affect pilots who are based elsewhere, then the directive needs to say so.

This is the trouble with government in secret. The people who are making decisions about our freedoms behind closed doors simply have no way of anticipating the consequences.

One thing I can't figure out is, what would stop terrorists from disabling or killing their escort, and going where they pleased? The TSA really, really needs to require guards at the edges of the airline portions of the ramp, which are clearly marked with red lines on the pavement. Then they could leave the rest of us the heck alone.

Yours truly,
Richard Palm
 
Ron Levy said:
Not a problem
Click to expand...

How easy that is to say!

-- the FBO provides an escort when a transient aircraft lands, whether there's an operating tower or not.
Click to expand...

In other words, saving money on self-serve fuel will be a thing of the past at places like Monterey, CA, because having an escort standing there while you're fueling will cost just as much as having someone pump the gas for you.

And what's this about an escort? Are you assuming that you will always be the only pilot on the ramp?

If you're looking at a no-tower airport when the FBO is closed, I suppose airport management will have to come up with a plan for that situation.
Click to expand...

Reminds me of a cartoon I once saw, where somebody had written a proof of something or other on a blackboard, and it concluded with "And then a miracle happens."

Rules imposed on the public need to be thought through BEFORE they are implemented. That's the problem with bypassing the NPRM process.
 
Ron Levy said:
The >60-seat criterion is in the "secret" TSA Security Directive, which you can find on line at http://www.abusivetsa.com/resources/tsa-directive-2008.pdf, cross-referenced to 49 CFR 1542.103, et seq. And I've confirmed this with my local Airport Manager: since we have air carrier traffic, but none with more than 60 seats, "we don't need no stinking badges."
Click to expand...


According SD posted above there is are dates that Part 139 Cat I, II, III, IV and X " must impliment the directives of the SD.

According to the FAA web site the catagories of part 139 airports are as follows.

The following table indicates the types of air carrier operations that each Part 139 airport class can serve. It doesn't jive with what you and your airport manager are saying.


Type of Air Carrier Operation Class I Class II Class III Class IV
Scheduled Large Air Carrier Aircraft (30+ seats) X
Unscheduled Large Air Carrier Aircraft (30+ seats) X X X
Scheduled Small Air Carrier Aircraft (10-30 seats) X X X
 
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We're in the process of getting these badges at ISP. They are charging $15 per badge. Those of us who are signing applications have to pay an additional $27 for fingerprinting and background check and we have to have SIDA training even though we don't get a SIDA badge. Let me tell you, if a renter comes back at 2am, there's no way in hell we're gonna have staff waiting just so they can be escorted.
 
FlyLI said:
We're in the process of getting these badges at ISP. They are charging $15 per badge. Those of us who are signing applications have to pay an additional $27 for fingerprinting and background check and we have to have SIDA training even though we don't get a SIDA badge. Let me tell you, if a renter comes back at 2am, there's no way in hell we're gonna have staff waiting just so they can be escorted.
Click to expand...
Do we know what the background check is for? Are convicted felons unable to get clearance or badges or is it only convicted terrorists?
 
thepetrostate said:
Do we know what the background check is for? Are convicted felons unable to get clearance or badges or is it only convicted terrorists?
Click to expand...
This is addressed in the SD. The criteria include verification of the person's identity, whether the person is legally in the US, and whether the person "poses a security threat." It appears, but does not specifically state, that those on the "no-fly list" will not be permitted these badges. In addition, a record of conviction for offenses listed in 49 CFR 1542.209(d) appears to be disqualifying:
49 CFR 1542.209 said:
(d) Disqualifying criminal offenses. An individual has a
disqualifying criminal offense if the individual has been convicted, or
found not guilty of by reason of insanity, of any of the disqualifying
crimes listed in this paragraph (d) in any jurisdiction during the 10
years before the date of the individual's application for unescorted
access authority, or while the individual has unescorted access
authority. The disqualifying criminal offenses are as follows--
(1) Forgery of certificates, false marking of aircraft, and other
aircraft registration violation; 49 U.S.C. 46306.
(2) Interference with air navigation; 49 U.S.C. 46308.
(3) Improper transportation of a hazardous material; 49 U.S.C.
46312.
(4) Aircraft piracy; 49 U.S.C. 46502.
(5) Interference with flight crew members or flight attendants; 49
U.S.C. 46504.
(6) Commission of certain crimes aboard aircraft in flight; 49
U.S.C. 46506.
(7) Carrying a weapon or explosive aboard aircraft; 49 U.S.C. 46505.
(8) Conveying false information and threats; 49 U.S.C. 46507.
(9) Aircraft piracy outside the special aircraft jurisdiction of the
United States; 49 U.S.C. 46502(b).
(10) Lighting violations involving transporting controlled
substances; 49 U.S.C. 46315.
(11) Unlawful entry into an aircraft or airport area that serves air
carriers or foreign air carriers contrary to established security
requirements; 49 U.S.C. 46314.
(12) Destruction of an aircraft or aircraft facility; 18 U.S.C. 32.
(13) Murder.
(14) Assault with intent to murder.
(15) Espionage.
(16) Sedition.
(17) Kidnapping or hostage taking.
(18) Treason.
(19) Rape or aggravated sexual abuse.
(20) Unlawful possession, use, sale, distribution, or manufacture of
an explosive or weapon.
(21) Extortion.
(22) Armed or felony unarmed robbery.
(23) Distribution of, or intent to distribute, a controlled
substance.
(24) Felony arson.
(25) Felony involving a threat.
(26) Felony involving--
(i) Willful destruction of property;
(ii) Importation or manufacture of a controlled substance;
(iii) Burglary;
(iv) Theft;
(v) Dishonesty, fraud, or misrepresentation;
(vi) Possession or distribution of stolen property;
(vii) Aggravated assault;
(viii) Bribery; or
(ix) Illegal possession of a controlled substance punishable by a
maximum term of imprisonment of more than 1 year.
(27) Violence at international airports; 18 U.S.C. 37.
(28) Conspiracy or attempt to commit any of the criminal acts listed
in this paragraph (d).
Click to expand...
I suspect that ugly galoot on the line to be one of Hedley Lamarr's mob would be quadruply disqualified for this badge.
Hedley Lamarr: Qualifications?
Applicant: Rape, murder, arson, and rape.
Hedley Lamarr: You said rape twice.
Applicant: I like rape.
Mel Brooks, et alia, "Blazing Saddles", 1974
Click to expand...
 
Ron Levy said:
This is addressed in the SD. The criteria include verification of the person's identity, whether the person is legally in the US, and whether the person "poses a security threat." It appears, but does not specifically state, that those on the "no-fly list" will not be permitted these badges. In addition, a record of conviction for offenses listed in 49 CFR 1542.209(d) appears to be disqualifying:
I suspect that ugly galoot on the line to be one of Hedley Lamarr's mob would be quadruply disqualified for this badge.
Click to expand...

I don't understand why half of those things are on the list. What difference does it make to the TSA if a GA pilot has assault or battery on their background?

What's next, they going to add "speeding" and "DWI" to their list of disqualifiers?
 
SkyHog said:
I don't understand why half of those things are on the list. What difference does it make to the TSA if a GA pilot has assault or battery on their background?
Click to expand...
Perhaps their concern is airport security, and they think that known felons (note that only felony aggravated assault is on the list, not misdemeanor or simple assault/battery) shouldn't be allowed unrestricted access to airports full of valuable and life-critical things, regardless of whether they're pilots or mechanics or dump truck drivers.
What's next, they going to add "speeding" and "DWI" to their list of disqualifiers?
Click to expand...
They seem uninterested in misdemeanors and noncriminal civil offenses, and while it's hard to prove a negative as far as possible future actions, this list hasn't changed since it was published shortly after the time TSA stood up several years ago.
 
Ron Levy said:
Remember -- this new rule only applies at airports with air carrier service with aircraft of more than 60 seats, and that's not a huge number of airports. I wonder how many airports with such service don't have someone on duty 24/7 to meet and escort transient pilots. The ones with "sporadic" service generally don't have aircraft that big.
Click to expand...

Our Part 139 airport is on the TSA list because there is one company here that maintains a Part 121 certificate and makes "one scheduled flight per week" to keep his certificate.

The tower shuts down at night, the "FBO" is the County Department of Aviation and they don't stay here all night either. So between about midnight and 6AM there is no one on the airport except a roving security patrol.

No information forth coming yet about badges or how to handle late at night transients.
 
SkyHog said:
What's next, they going to add "speeding" and "DWI" to their list of disqualifiers?
Click to expand...

DWI or more recently known as DUI is currently taken care of by the FAA. They pull your medical certificate which would invalidate most pilot certificates.

And for you LSA types, the State DMV will pull your auto drivers license for a DUI which will invalidate your LSA pilot certificate.
 
BillTIZ said:
Our Part 139 airport is on the TSA list because there is one company here that maintains a Part 121 certificate and makes "one scheduled flight per week" to keep his certificate.
Click to expand...
If your airport manager has chosen to have a full security plan for ths/at one flight a week, he is a masochist. I suspect that s/he isn't, and you won't need badges -- ask your manager what's happening.
The tower shuts down at night, the "FBO" is the County Department of Aviation and they don't stay here all night either. So between about midnight and 6AM there is no one on the airport except a roving security patrol.

No information forth coming yet about badges
Click to expand...
If nobody's said anything yet, I doubt you're getting them.
or how to handle late at night transients.
Click to expand...
I suspect that "roving security patrol" will be tasked to escort those folks upon landing.
 
BillTIZ said:
DWI or more recently known as DUI is currently taken care of by the FAA. They pull your medical certificate
Click to expand...
Not for first offenses. However, since TSA hasn't written anything less than a felony into the rules, a DUI/DWI won't make you ineligible for an AOA badge.
 
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