Trunkers

Discussion in 'Maintenance Bay' started by brien23, May 17, 2012.

  1. brien23

    brien23 Cleared for Takeoff

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    Trunkers a A&P / IA that works out of the trunk of his car at airports doing annual inspections. Is this fair to those busness that pay for insurance give a percent of their income to the airport along with other expences that trunkers do not have.
     
  2. SCCutler

    SCCutler Administrator Management Council Member PoA Supporter

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    Why not?

    The fixed shops have a fundamental advantage in that, with a fixed place of business, they can more easily establish a steady clientele, and benefit from business which arrives at the field away from their home base. They also have the ability to do a lot of higher-value work, the kind of stuff you can only do with heavy and bulky plant and equipment.
     
  3. Larryo

    Larryo Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Absolutely! This country is for free enterprise. The trunkers offer some advantages and the business that are established there have some advantages, too.

    Give a percent to the airport and insurance has NOTHING to do with providing a service, unless the customer requires it.

    Have at it!
     
  4. jhausch

    jhausch Cleared for Takeoff

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    No, it's not fair to the on-site shops. However, it is not their job to be fair to the on-site shops. Unless there are hangar rules or it is a private airport I am not sure how to fight it other than through superior service...

    How do you know they don't have insurance?
     
  5. Larryo

    Larryo Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Jhausch,

    Why fight it... just choose your mechanic, and who cares if a trunker provides a service to aircraft owners.

    And who cares about insurance? If you do, then ask for it, you are not obligated to do business with anyone and that's YOUR choice.... there's no law in not having insurance.

    I like competition...... and a lot of the established FBOs cant get the job done.
     
  6. nddons

    nddons Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Sounds like he's filling a need. He makes hangar-calls.

    What prompted the question?
     
  7. fgcason

    fgcason En-Route

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    Is it fair that a fixed maintenance shop with a building on the airport gets all the business just because they have unnecessary expenses and decided it's their turf?

    Aviation is going down the tubes because of high prices and minimal income. The small business mechanics with a truck that goes where the work is are probably the smartest people in aviation. Near zero overhead, minimal expenses beyond a vehicle and a bunch of tools, pull up to a hangar, work, get paid, go home and park in the driveway. Pretty damned smart if you ask me.

    Leave the little guys alone and let them do their thing.
     
  8. Tom-D

    Tom-D Taxi to Parking PoA Supporter

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    At some airports that is all you have. You should know from the experiences at OKH.

    Trunkers, we both are.

    For those who don't know Brien is my counter part here on Whidbey.
     
  9. Tom-D

    Tom-D Taxi to Parking PoA Supporter

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    More and more the airport owners think they have a liability with a Freelanced A&P working the airport, and want the A&P to provide the airport owner with insurance coverage.

    I have a business license, and Liability insurance, but I'll not make the owner of any airport named insured on my policy. So I simply quit working on those airports.
     
  10. Tom-D

    Tom-D Taxi to Parking PoA Supporter

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    Such as ?

    There is nothing I can't bring to the shop and repair and take back to the airport.

    The best Sheet metal man I know doesn't even live on an airport, A&P mechanics owners and any one with his address brings stuff to him to be worked on.

    Speciality shops Like Charley Malot, Aviation Nowthwest, Savage mag, and the multitude of others depend upon the Freelanced A&P to go to your hangar get the appliances and send them in to be repaired, and re-install.

    We can even transport your wreck to where it can be repaired even when it involves many shops to get it done.
     
  11. SCCutler

    SCCutler Administrator Management Council Member PoA Supporter

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    I sit corrected, then, Tom. I was all et-up with equanimity.

    I'm on your side, y'know!
     
  12. Tom-D

    Tom-D Taxi to Parking PoA Supporter

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    I know......

    We have a large variation of the self employed A&Ps.

    And there really is no realistic method of sorting out the bad from the good. except trial and error.

    That's one reason I am so adamant about owners knowing what should be written in their maintenance records.
     
  13. Skylane81E

    Skylane81E Final Approach

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    One of the reasons I got a larger car, so I have the option...
     
  14. Tom-D

    Tom-D Taxi to Parking PoA Supporter

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    Bigger trunk, more tools.
     
  15. denverpilot

    denverpilot Taxi to Parking

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    Some of the best CFIs aren't signed on as employees of any particular FBO/club either, so I see no reason mechanics should be any different.

    Is the airport assuming additional liability by allowing freelance CFIs to teach on the grounds? No.

    Why? Because the airport doesn't set any standards either one are measured by. They could require the freelancer to carry big fire extinguishers or something equally similar perhaps, if they require fire suppression at the big shop. Stuff like that. THAT would tie them in and create liability out of thin air since they call the shots.

    But liability for the work/service being paid for? No.
     
  16. Tom-D

    Tom-D Taxi to Parking PoA Supporter

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    In the case of OKH, it is private property, the owner can forbid any one he pleases from entering the property. He is just making excuses for not wanting me there.

    Rich guys don't like being told they are slum lords. But the only people he is hurting is his own tenants.
     
  17. jhausch

    jhausch Cleared for Takeoff

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    I think you mis-interpreted the intent of my post. Basically, I'm saying "life isn't fair". I like competition, too, that's why I said the only way to fight it is through superior service. If the onsite FBO needs to charge more to cover their overhead, they need to justify it. I mentioned insurance because the OP did.
     
  18. timwinters

    timwinters Ejection Handle Pulled PoA Supporter

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    I've had experience with two "trunkers." One was in NW AR and one in SW MO. Both were excellent pencil whippers. Good mechanics? Not so much.

    Just a data point.
     
  19. Steve Foley

    Steve Foley Pattern Altitude

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    Not entirely. A landlord cannot prevent a tenant from entertaining guests.

    If the aircraft owner is renting/leasing the tie-down/hangar, and the lease/rental agreement does not prohibit the owner from bringing in someone to work on his/her plane, then the owner cannot bar the trunker.

    On the other hand, the owner can change always add those restriction when the lease comes up for renewal, and a lessee who ****es off the lessor may find himself/herself with no renewal offered.
     
  20. Skylane81E

    Skylane81E Final Approach

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    And a valid data point, you the owner should be aware of work being done. Easier for the jypsy mechanic to get away with a pencil job than a repair station however.
     
  21. Tom-D

    Tom-D Taxi to Parking PoA Supporter

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    This guy will break a lease over a $20. bill, so he'd simply tell the tenant to take their aircraft and leave.
     
  22. gismo

    gismo Touchdown! Greaser!

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    This business of requiring others to add them to your insurance is getting out of hand. One FBO at my home base won't let their CFIs instruct in an owner's airplane unless the owner adds the FBO to his insurance as a named insured. As a result I no longer use their instructors for BFRs, IPCs etc. I had a potential client who's in the same line of work as me (independent contactor/consultant doing electronic design) insist that I had to add him to my automobile and general liability policies and agree that my insurance would be primary in any claim. I bounced that back at him saying that I'd do that if he'd do the same for me (he declined).

    I've seen plenty of other examples of this, why do people think I should buy their insurance protection for them?
     
  23. Dean

    Dean Pattern Altitude

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    Its my airplane, I should have the choice of who works on it and not forced to use the on field shop. What I do in my hangar is my business and not anyone else!
     
  24. Skylane81E

    Skylane81E Final Approach

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    Wow, we have had student pilots add us or the CFI as a named insured, but that's only because the CFI is who would be deemed responsible if they augered in as the only licensed pilot on board.
     
  25. Fearless Tower

    Fearless Tower Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Excellent point. Like anyone else in the aviation industry, an A&P IA without insurance is either dirt poor or an absolute fool.
     
  26. Tom-D

    Tom-D Taxi to Parking PoA Supporter

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    My PMI told me once a while back, your best insurance is a good job and a proper sign off.

    Of course having nothing anyone else wants is a help.
     
  27. brien23

    brien23 Cleared for Takeoff

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    Local airport put this in if you want to work on their airport.

    SECTION 4 - MINIMUM STANDARDS FOR
    INDEPENDENT MECHANICS AND FLIGHT INSTRUCTORS​
    ***************************************************************​
    A. The following minimum standards shall apply to all prospective aeronautical service
    providers wishing to offer their services for compensation as an Independent Mechanic or Independent
    Flight Instructor at the Airport.​
    1. The applicant shall obtain an Independent Aeronautical Service Provider Authorization
    from the Airport Director.
    2. The applicant shall have such technical background and shall have demonstrated his technical
    capability to the satisfaction and in such manner as to meet with the approval of the Airport Director.
    This includes appropriate FAA certifications and stable work history. (Note: FAA certifications
    alone, without significant documented work history, will not meet this requirement,)
    3. Demonstrate adequate resources to realize the proposed business objectives. This includes
    finances, tools, FAA manuals and documentation for the proposed business.
    4. Provide a communications plan which allows customers to make contact within a reasonable
    timeframe.
    5. The applicant shall demonstrate his ability to acquire insurance coverage as stipulated in
    APPENDIX A. An applicant should make his own analysis to determine if more is needed. Higher
    coverage limits may be appropriate for some operations. Insurance coverage will be reviewed by
    the Snohomish County Risk Manager as applications are received. The Risk Manager may require
    different coverage based on review of the proposed business and the background of the applicants.
    6. The applicant shall possess a valid Washington State Tax ID Number, collect appropriate
    sales tax on revenue, file tax reports with the Department of Revenue and IRS and make all appropriate
    tax payments required by law.
    7. Additional specific requirements for Independent Mechanics and Independent Flight
    Instructors are listed in APPENDIX A.​
    B. Demonstration of intent to conduct a business operation at the Airport shall be by application
    to the Snohomish County Airport Director. The written application shall contain at
    the minimum:​
    1. The proposed name and nature of the business, including intended services.​
    - 10 -​
    2. The name of the person making the application. Copies of current FAA licenses, certificates,
    and currency records which would be required for the proposed business.
    3. A current financial statement for the business owner.
    4. A listing of assets owned, or being purchased, or leased which will be used in the business
    on the Airport.
    5. A current credit report.
    6. A list of employers or work history providing information covering last five years.
    7. An operations plan providing summary of intended use of airport facilities, including
    proposed environmental compliance plan.
    8. Evidence of ability to acquire required insurance coverage. Such policies shall not be
    for less than the amounts listed at APPENDIX A
    9. An operations and technical business plan forecasting business development and demonstrating
    the capability to meet FAA requirements for the proposed service. Independent mechanics
    will be required to present a plan for obtaining appropriate FAA documentation (manuals, AD’s, updates
    etc.) for the work they intend to perform.
    10. Such other information as the Airport Director may reasonably require.​
    C. All applications will be reviewed and acted upon by the Airport within 90 days from
    the receipt of the complete written application. Applications may be denied for one or more of
    the following reasons:​
    1. The applicant does not meet qualifications, standards and requirements established by
    these minimum standards.
    2. The applicant’s proposed operations will create a safety or environmental hazard on the
    Airport.
    3. The granting of the application will require the expenditure of airport funds, labor or materials
    on the facilities described in or related to the application, or the operation could have a negative
    impact on the Airport’s financial operations.
    4. There is no appropriate or adequate available space or building on the Airport to accommodate
    the activity of the applicant.
    5. The proposed operation does not comply with the approved Master Plan and Airport Layout
    Plan.
    6. The applicant has supplied false information, or has misrepresented any material fact in
    the application or in supporting documents, or has failed to make full disclosure on the application.
    7. The applicant has a record of violating the rules, regulations or minimum standards of the​
    - 11 -​
    Airport or any other airport, the Federal Aviation Regulations, the Snohomish County Code, or local
    health regulations.
    8. The applicant has defaulted in the performance of any lease or other agreement with the
    Snohomish County Airport or any lease or other agreement with another airport or entity.
    9. The applicant is not sufficiently credit worthy and responsible in the judgment of the Airport
    Director to provide and maintain the proposed business.
    10. The applicant does not have the finances necessary to conduct the proposed operation.
    11. The applicant has committed any crime, or violated any ordinance, rule or regulation,
    which adversely reflects on its ability to conduct the proposed operation applied for.
    12. The proposed business does not meet the local, state, and federal requirements for environmental
    compliance.​
    SECTION 5 - APPEAL PROCESS
     
  28. Henning

    Henning Ejection Handle Pulled

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    In my experience they aren't really in direct competition, if both are run well, they will attract different clients with hangar owns gravitating to trunkers and tie down and transients going to the shop. What I do find is that airports with some competition you get a better level of service from everyone, it's the forced monopoly airports where you get screwed.
     
  29. wabower

    wabower Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Maybe, maybe not, depending on the language in your hangar lease.

     
  30. wabower

    wabower Touchdown! Greaser!

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    And the best mechanic in the Kansas City area hasn't worked in a shop since the late 70's.

     
  31. RotorAndWing

    RotorAndWing Final Approach

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    You get what you pay for.

    There is a certain clientele that's attracted to the "quick in and out" type annual where the only tool used is a pen. As long as the demand is present there will be the unscrupulous IA's to fill the need.

    Not saying that the free lance guys are bad, there are some really good ones.
     
  32. Bob Noel

    Bob Noel Touchdown! Greaser!

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    What makes the Airport Director qualified to assess the CFI's or A&P's abilities?
     
  33. Tom-D

    Tom-D Taxi to Parking PoA Supporter

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    They can't, what this is, is an attempt to satisfy the FBOs on the field to keep self employed A&P-IAs out of their turf.

    I have checked with the Wa state attorney's office, they say the airport has no liability from the A&P-IAs working on the airport.

    The example given by them was, the owner of a rental home can't dictate who the renter has work on the renters car in the garage of the rental home.
    But they do have the right to collect damages when any occurs, so the owner of the rental home can insist that the mechanic has insurance to cover that case.
     
  34. wabower

    wabower Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Bottom line of this discussion, like many others, is a thinly-disguised and poorly-concealed "show me the money."

    Any meaningful discussion of this subject must be accompanied by a discussion of relative cost.

    For example, if a $30/hr trunker who had provided excellent MX service for 10 years annouced that he was tired of the grind and was hiring on with the local on-field shop (less than 100 yards away) that would charge $80/hr, would those who use trunkers follow the mechanic or find another $30 trunker?


     
  35. Fearless Tower

    Fearless Tower Touchdown! Greaser!

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    That's when the truth comes out.




    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD
     
  36. RotorAndWing

    RotorAndWing Final Approach

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    Very true.
     
  37. Tom-D

    Tom-D Taxi to Parking PoA Supporter

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    The problem at Paine Field where this requirement was posted, is simple. The Airport belongs to the County and the county lawyers are influenced by the FBO owners (Crown aviation & Regal Aviation) into believing there is a risk of the airport loosing property when the self employed A&P causes a fire or ???

    read the whole thing
    http://www.painefield.com/pf_pdf/PAE_Minimum_Standards.pdf


    SECTION 1 - BACKGROUND AND POLICY
    ********************************************************************************
    The Airport has been working on a project to develop Minimum Standards for aeronautical ser- vices for several years The Minimum Standards were developed using an Advisory Group of air- port users and tenants, the County Risk Manager, County Insurance Advisor and an outside consult- ant as a sounding board for the complex issues involving aeronautical services at the Airport. There have been multiple advisory group meetings which have included speakers from the FAA and the aviation insurance industry. This effort has been delayed several times by other projects, but it is now basically complete:
     
    Last edited: Jun 2, 2012
  38. Jay Honeck

    Jay Honeck Touchdown! Greaser!

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    As someone already said, most airports ONLY have trunkers. Our island airport has no shop -- but our mechanic makes house calls.

    And, interestingly, he's kind of a "hybrid-trunker". He's got a shop in Alice...but also has a truck that he uses for servicing outlying airports.
     
  39. Tom-D

    Tom-D Taxi to Parking PoA Supporter

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    The serious difference between BVS and PAE

    http://www.portofskagit.com/images/uploads/e-3_airport_minimum_standards_for_website_2010.pdf

    Notice


    1. The types of service providers include:

    a. Fixed Base Operators-Full Service General Aviation-Recreational General Aviation-Corporate

    b. Fixed Base Operators- Limited Service Aircraft Maintenance and Repair Aircraft Rental
    Flight Instruction


    c. Independent Providers – At this point we are not addressing Independent Providers

    Mechanic Flight Instructor
     
  40. steingar

    steingar Taxi to Parking

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    After a $4K month and a half annual on a Cherokee 140, I would welcome such a mechanic. Couldn't be that much worse.