Trump to headline privatized ATC next week

Status
Not open for further replies.
I wouldn't worry about it. Doesn't matter what he proposes. At this point, Trump could sign an executive order banning guns and the democrats would come out in support of the 2nd Amendment. The man has destroyed his credibility sufficiently that he isn't going to get anything accomplished good or bad.
 
I smell "User Fees"! The 2020 ADS-B mandate is a way to track your A/C movements from the time you start down the runway until you clear the "Active". After I installed ADS-B out my flight path is tracked from runway to runway and I'm at a PoDunk airport.
 
I wouldn't worry about it. Doesn't matter what he proposes. At this point, Trump could sign an executive order banning guns and the democrats would come out in support of the 2nd Amendment. The man has destroyed his credibility sufficiently that he isn't going to get anything accomplished good or bad.

Actually, I'd say that all sides are pretty paralyzed right now because of credibility. But I don't see sufficient support in Congress for user fees to pass. The factions are just too disorganized and everyone hates everyone else too much.
 
There is no evidence Trump or anyone else will privatize ATC and hand aviation over to the commercial carriers.
Except that they're doing everything they can to do exactly that. And anyone who thinks this will be a benevolent system like Canada's that is "fair" to GA is a complete fool. There is absolutely no reason whatsoever to do this. Our system is egalitarian and efficient. The only problem is congress, and now they're going to solve that by kicking the ball to big corporations. This is not going to work out well for GA.
 
I wouldn't worry about it. Doesn't matter what he proposes. At this point, Trump could sign an executive order banning guns and the democrats would come out in support of the 2nd Amendment. The man has destroyed his credibility sufficiently that he isn't going to get anything accomplished good or bad.

If folks keep buying the crap they see on the overly biased media they'll never see differently. Funny so many completely ignore all the dumb crap the last fool did and was not reported from that same media.
Glad I was taught not to buy BS as it's gotten out of hand in the last dozen years. But, as you see here, some aren't so particular.....
 
Last edited:
What portion of Avgas tax exclusively goes towards ATC? and the balance towards aviation infrastructure, ie: physical maintenance of airports, landing systems, GPS, VOR, ADS-B ground base and GPS interface broadcast services, etc.

Is he talking just ATC? If that's it, then what about the safety of just 'passenger flights'. John Q Public doesn't really understand the impact of GA, but everyone understands the 'Airlines', which by the way have recently given themselves a black eye. Both of which are political moves, IMHO.

Focus on the 'quality' of the system today, and what risk or improvement privatizing the system would impact. Taxes are here to stay, so it will no doubt increase the cost to fly if you want to be in the system (IFR). Guessing more VFR X/C's w/o flight following would result, and frankly with ADS-B at no less risk as it relates to traffic avoidance.
In Colorado, Dept of Transportation, Div of Aeronautics is funded 100% by avgas fuel tax. It receives 0 funds from the state. So only those who use airports and buy gas pay the bill. These funds are used for maintenance and improvements to the physical plant and infrastructure of 72 of 73 airports in Colorado. Items as trivial as runway lights in the boonies to the major resurfacing of a 10k runway at KAPA. Not sure how DIA funds because I never see $ requests from it on the grant reports.

So in Colorado, privatized ATC will be another tax. And dare I say it.....from an Administration that advocates for tax reform and reduce regulation.
 
I'm just not a fan of changing things which work, we got tons of crap in this country which doesn't work, let's worry about that stuff, and leave one of the only things which a works really well alone.
And this is probably the 2nd argument to use on your congresscritters. The one after the economic benefit.
 
back on the non political side of the topic

privatization will fail... probably quickly...

but an openly ran conglomerate ran by a multi party panel represent all the facets of aviation (except that guy that wants the circular runways,) that could work. Hell it might even work out in our favor.. its not like the don't already discourage GA traffic to busy airports with incredibly high Fees. TBH...pushing the little guys out to the smaller airports might just open up some of these thousands of smaller airports to more traffic (and customer potential for short hops)

idk.. im split on it. on one hand im not all that impressed by government run anything..on the other.. if its private it will quickly become about profits. Also....if it does become private.. who gets the technology? thats one of my biggest pushes against space x... nasa tech is owned by the public. if space x comes up with some new great IP.. they can keep it locked up, helping no one but themselves.


privatization. vote no
changing the structure and disassociation with the FAA... i vote maybe
 
Step 1 - Privatize ATC
Step 2 - Charge for all ATC services
Step 3 - Require ATC services for every fight

It's coming.
 
Step 1 - Privatize ATC
Step 2 - Charge for all ATC services
Step 3 - Require ATC services for every fight

It's coming.
Reminds me of a line from a Beatles song: "If you take a walk, I'll tax your feet."
 
Step 1 - Privatize ATC
Step 2 - Charge for all ATC services
Step 3 - Require ATC services for every fight

It's coming.

youre thinking about it so negatively.. it could spur huge innovation.. just think.... Stealth Cessna's!
 
I don't love big government. Anything the government can do private industry can do better and they can do it for less money.
 
I don't love big government. Anything the government can do private industry can do better and they can do it for less money.
What things do you think could be better? Specifically. Get clearances faster? Get "direct" more often? Get additional services like Flight Following more often? Just what would be better if Air Traffic Controllers were employees of Acme Inc. instead of the FAA?
 
Private industry can do the same job for fewer of your tax dollars. Government has never been a model of efficiency and the FAA is no exception. I don't like paying more than something is worth and that's exactly what we do when evaluating government services. If government is so good maybe you'd like them to take over aircraft manufacturing, too. Would that make things better?
 
I think Trump's proposal to privatize ATC will have about as much luck as his tax proposal, travel ban, etc. have had.
 
Actually, I'd say that all sides are pretty paralyzed right now because of credibility. But I don't see sufficient support in Congress for user fees to pass. The factions are just too disorganized and everyone hates everyone else too much.

That pretty much sums up the entirety of American politics.

18622409_1027133650762354_6409685488747029113_n.jpg
 
Private industry can do the same job for fewer of your tax dollars. Government has never been a model of efficiency and the FAA is no exception. I don't like paying more than something is worth and that's exactly what we do when evaluating government services. If government is so good maybe you'd like them to take over aircraft manufacturing, too. Would that make things better?


so they are going to do it for cheaper... and still charge us more? sounds like a winner.

Just wait.. your going to be able to bypass the pattern and get priority landing "for a fee" pretty soon.
 
If folks keep buying the crap they see on the overly biased media they'll never see differently. Funny so many completely ignore all the dumb crap the last fool did and was not reported from that same media.
Glad I was taught not to buy BS as it's gotten out of hand in the last dozen years. But, as you see here, some aren't so particular.....
Sounds like your making some big assumptions. I don't buy anything the media sells, whether the vendor is CNN, NYT, Breitbart or Fox News.

It's all biased and full of spin. Some of it is factual, but distorted and full of heavy spin (CNN, NYT, Fox) and others are flat out peddling made up BS (Breitbart, Occupy Democrats).

But I'm talking about what the man himself has done to his credibility.

The immigration issue is a perfect example. Because Trump can't control himself on outlets like Twitter, his own words are continuously being used against him. He doesn't know when to shut up. Consequently, any lawyer worth his salt is going to use that against him to defeat the travel restrictions. And the sad thing is we really do need to put limits on immigration. We'll just never be successful as long as we have a President who can't articulate or control his message.
 
Sounds like your making some big assumptions. I don't buy anything the media sells, whether the vendor is CNN, NYT, Breitbart or Fox News.

It's all biased and full of spin. Some of it is factual, but distorted and full of heavy spin (CNN, NYT, Fox) and others are flat out peddling made up BS (Breitbart, Occupy Democrats).

But I'm talking about what the man himself has done to his credibility.

The immigration issue is a perfect example. Because Trump can't control himself on outlets like Twitter, his own words are continuously being used against him. He doesn't know when to shut up. Consequently, any lawyer worth his salt is going to use that against him to defeat the travel restrictions. And the sad thing is we really do need to put limits on immigration. We'll just never be successful as long as we have a President who can't articulate or control his message.
Here's another reminder not to make this thread about Trump or it will be closed and warnings given.
 
Who was is about when the OP wrote the thread title? :mad2:
 
Update on today's briefing from the WH. FAA/ATC high priority as part of Transportation changes. Stakeholders at the meeting with POTUS did not include NBAA, AOPA or EAA altho NATCA was there. Over on the stock market side, the CEO of MGM Grand pointed out that improvements and changes to aviation woud improve the bottom line for Las Vegas.
 
so they are going to do it for cheaper... and still charge us more? sounds like a winner.

Just wait.. your going to be able to bypass the pattern and get priority landing "for a fee" pretty soon.

User fees and privatizing ATC are two different topics. We all pay for ATC with taxes. Privatized ATC could be funded by those same taxes.

Nobody believes user fees will reduce our tax burden so user fees represent a new supplemental tax. They just keep taking more. That's a government problem, not a private industry problem.
 
Who was is about when the OP wrote the thread title? :mad2:
The word "Trump" in the title is only a statement of who is having a meeting. The post I quoted goes into his tweeting habits, his credibility, and immigration. Sorry you can't tell the difference.
 
Sorry AOPA, but if you have a flight dept., paid pilots, and a jet, you are not GA.

No. If you are military or the airlines, you are not GA.

Flight department, paid pilots, and a jet, ie corporate aviation, is absolutely GA.

From the WAPO piece: "In the briefing for reporters, Cohn pledged that in Trump’s plan “there is money to make sure that rural airports get protected.”"

I hope they protect rural airports better than pre-existing conditions. :eek:

Privatizing ATC is simply part of moving government functions into the private sector and the ATC union supports the idea.

The ATC union supports the idea??? Doubt it. Got a reference?

The way the system is now VFR pilots flying in and out of uncontrolled fields are pay the same taxes for ATC to support a system that they don't use.

The fuel taxes do much more than support ATC. They also pay for things like new runways at all those uncontrolled airports, in addition to the $150,000 per year that each small airport can get to cover operating expenses.

With your plane, you don't burn much fuel and you don't use many services... So you are getting what you pay for. Upgrade to something bigger where you'd use more services, and you'll be burning more fuel and paying more for those additional services. Works well and is very efficient.

Privatizing ATC is nothing more than changing who signs the controller's paycheck.

Clearly you weren't around for the Flight Service debacle.

Private industry can do the same job for fewer of your tax dollars. Government has never been a model of efficiency and the FAA is no exception. I don't like paying more than something is worth and that's exactly what we do when evaluating government services. If government is so good maybe you'd like them to take over aircraft manufacturing, too. Would that make things better?

Nice attempt at equating government ATC to communism... But let me address the rest of your assertion.

Often, it is said that private industry is more efficient, more agile, more (insert good words here) than government. However, that's not always true. Large corporations tend to get less and less efficient, and they become just as bad as government, if not worse.

So, let's not simply assume that privatization = good. Explain how it will work - Will there be user fees, how will they be collected, what sorts of things would private enterprise do that the FAA can't/won't, and what are the safety implications? Will it really be better?

Frankly, I think the non-profit aspect of this automatically renders the privatization = better thing moot. It's just a matter of who's getting the money. I'd rather WE (the citizens) be in charge. This whole "board of directors" nonsense is simply a way to eliminate accountability.
 
No. If you are military or the airlines, you are not GA.

Flight department, paid pilots, and a jet, ie corporate aviation, is absolutely GA.



I hope they protect rural airports better than pre-existing conditions. :eek:



The ATC union supports the idea??? Doubt it. Got a reference?



The fuel taxes do much more than support ATC. They also pay for things like new runways at all those uncontrolled airports, in addition to the $150,000 per year that each small airport can get to cover operating expenses.

With your plane, you don't burn much fuel and you don't use many services... So you are getting what you pay for. Upgrade to something bigger where you'd use more services, and you'll be burning more fuel and paying more for those additional services. Works well and is very efficient.



Clearly you weren't around for the Flight Service debacle.



Nice attempt at equating government ATC to communism... But let me address the rest of your assertion.

Often, it is said that private industry is more efficient, more agile, more (insert good words here) than government. However, that's not always true. Large corporations tend to get less and less efficient, and they become just as bad as government, if not worse.

So, let's not simply assume that privatization = good. Explain how it will work - Will there be user fees, how will they be collected, what sorts of things would private enterprise do that the FAA can't/won't, and what are the safety implications? Will it really be better?

Frankly, I think the non-profit aspect of this automatically renders the privatization = better thing moot. It's just a matter of who's getting the money. I'd rather WE (the citizens) be in charge. This whole "board of directors" nonsense is simply a way to eliminate accountability.

Sorry, but I disagree with you. If you hire pilots to transport people or goods you are corporate aviation, which is something between GA and commercial. In any event, if you fly some over 6000 GTW you are going to start paying a lot with this proposed change.
 
The word "Trump" in the title is only a statement of who is having a meeting. The post I quoted goes into his tweeting habits, his credibility, and immigration. Sorry you can't tell the difference.

And it's only trolling, baiting, or politics when you say so. We ALL know the difference.
 
Except that they're doing everything they can to do exactly that. And anyone who thinks this will be a benevolent system like Canada's that is "fair" to GA is a complete fool. There is absolutely no reason whatsoever to do this. Our system is egalitarian and efficient. The only problem is congress, and now they're going to solve that by kicking the ball to big corporations. This is not going to work out well for GA.

Canadian here. The Nav Canada solution works well here, I have no issues at all.

However, the "Made in America" proposal most probably would be very different...

I note a difference in trust in the government in both countries. I hold the government to a reasonably high standard, and am occasionally disappointed.

Without putting words in people's mouths, I think my American friends hold the government to a (high or low) standard and are frequently disappointed. Basis for a trust issue.

I hope for the best, but prepare for the worst.
 
I think Trump's proposal to privatize ATC will have about as much luck as his tax proposal, travel ban, etc. have had.

Then you agree it's getting done. The travel ban blocked illegally by left-wing judges will be overturned this week or next. The tax stuff and Obamacare repeal are being blocked by Democrats in the Senate. We wait to see if McConnell will change the rules and bypass them. If not, 2018 will fix it when 12 Dem senators are fired.
 
Then you agree it's getting done. The travel ban blocked illegally by left-wing judges will be overturned this week or next. The tax stuff and Obamacare repeal are being blocked by Democrats in the Senate. We wait to see if McConnell will change the rules and bypass them. If not, 2018 will fix it when 12 Dem senators are fired.
I think he said the *proposal* has no chance of success. Not sure I agree... unfortunately. :(
 
User fees and privatizing ATC are two different topics. We all pay for ATC with taxes. Privatized ATC could be funded by those same taxes.

Nobody believes user fees will reduce our tax burden so user fees represent a new supplemental tax. They just keep taking more. That's a government problem, not a private industry problem.

This is a terrific point! User fees are a non-starter for me and I can't support any elected official who believes we should pay more for a service that makes everyone safer. Think of the side effects of user-fees. People if given the option, simply won't use ATC and I'll just fly between class g airports. It will be real simple-- but I don't think that's safe to avoid talking to ATC and neither will anyone with a common sense approach because along the way to my non- towered airports I will be crossing path with several airliners and all those ponying up to pay for the right to talk to ATC! For user fees to work, the entire FAR/AIM's will need to be re-written to require ATC communication for all flights leaving the ground from every airport in the United States. That's impossible and we know that. My prediction, just like basicmed, when it comes time for user fees, a exemption will be made for VFR flight operating from airports without a control tower and or operating as a non commercial/revenue producing flight so that it could possibly work from a logistical standpoint. This actually could be great for smaller airports as people will leave class c's and d's rendering those more efficient( to give the airline guys a spin take that works for their agenda!)

Another part of user fees that seems extremely unfair is it punishes people who fly in congested airspace way more than rural/ less used airspace. For example, I fly in the northeast-- highly trafficked airspace-- so I always use flight following because my perception is I'm safer that way. For those that fly in the Midwest or Plains or places with far less air traffic, I'm sure the needs for flight following are far less as the risk of not using flight following is far less than for me. Therefore, user fees are inherently unfair as the fee/tax will not be spread around evenly amoungst the people. A flat fee will never work and will just create a scenario in which VFR pilots simply don't use the service intended to make everyone safe.

All AOPA and other groups need to do is spread the lines up above in literature to the media and elected officials who all already believe is small plane pilots are just an accident waiting to happen anyway and the masses will run screaming and yelling to their officials to not support user fees.

Privatize ATC all you want-- just don't make me pay for anything else when I fly and I'm fine with that!
 
Last edited:
How is a federal judge's decision "illegal"?

When he/she ignores the constitution. The 9th circuit is overturned 80% of the time by SCOTUS. Horrific proof that 'some' federal judges should not be sitting on the bench.
 
Sorry, but I disagree with you. If you hire pilots to transport people or goods you are corporate aviation, which is something between GA and commercial.

I don't care if you disagree with me, because ICAO agrees with me, and defines General Aviation as "all civil aviation operations other than scheduled air services and non-scheduled air transport operations for remuneration or hire."

So... You're either military, or commercial, or GA. And the flight department is GA.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top