Trump to headline privatized ATC next week

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LongRoadBob said:
You are wrong. I pointed out his personal idiosyncrasies, not a political ideology.
It has nothing to do with political affiliations.
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Write to him, tell him how much we love him, and let him know he should reconsider? :dunno:
I've already written to my representatives about this.
 
Does anyone think the airlines will look out for GA? The pilot shortage that has need predicted for the last 20 years appears to actually be here. If the airlines push for something that makes training more difficult/expensive, they will be cutting their own throats. Doesn't mean they won't do it though.
 
blueskyMD said:
After watching Trump for couple of years one thing I can tell you is that he is a populist guy. If somehow he knows tnat GA pilots are his great fans then he will back off from this. Question is how we can convey this message to him. Cause he will do anything to please his base considering all the troubles he has right now
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I have always felt that GA is too small a constituency to have much influence on presidents regardless of their political leanings.
 
Topper said:
Does anyone think the airlines will look out for GA? The pilot shortage that has need predicted for the last 20 years appears to actually be here. If the airlines push for something that makes training more difficult/expensive, they will be cutting their own throats. Doesn't mean they won't do it though.
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Yeah, I don't think we can count on them being that farsighted. However, I do think it's important to point out to lawmakers that airline safety depends on having highly experienced pilots in the hiring pool, that those pilots have to come from somewhere, and that they have to get their 1500 hours somewhere other than the airlines.
 
LongRoadBob said:
You are wrong. I pointed out his personal idiosyncrasies, not a political ideology.
It has nothing to do with political affiliations.
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Fact is you have no clue how to negotiate things like he does. Other than a LOT better than most or they'd be too wealthy to blather on a forum. His record is pretty good and continual bellyaching about his idiosyncrasies by folk that are so ridiculously far below his accomplishments is just entertaining at best, really sad more likely.
Amazing when people assume so much and we know what "assume" does....

On a lighter note, any Canucks want to chip in on how it's working for you? Costs?
 
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We are all so jaded and divided that we fail to see that there can be privitization AND protection for GA at the same time. Am I being idealistic and not realistic? Is there a financial scenario where screwing GA is better for the country and economy, rather than just carving it out/exempting it?
 
Look what privatization has done to flying in Europe. It has marginalized GA and made it unaffordable according to every source I have ever read. I go back to Phil Boyer's mantra from AOPA: "don't let the camel's nose under the tent". You may not like the hump or two that follows.

Really, what good could possibly come from making GA privatized? At least now there is a means - a process - to voice your discontent/disapproval with the FAA's policies & procedures. There are special interests like EAA & AOPA to lobby for us. Once privatized, what is our recourse? And even if GA is carved out for a while, how long will it be until someone gets the bright idea to fold us in like all the others?

Bottom line: I'm a lowly 172 flyer. User fees will kill my kind of GA and I'll tap out from necessity. And that sucks.
 
Is there a privitatization scenario where there would be no user fees for GA (I.e, personal flights not for profit/income)?

I don't dispute that privatization could be bad from a safety standpoint if pure profit were the driver (you want it safer Mr./Ms. User, pay more for better equipment or more controllers).
 
Goofy said:
Fact is you have no clue how to negotiate things like he does. Other than a LOT better than most or they'd be too wealthy to blather on a forum. His record is pretty good and continual bellyaching about his idiosyncrasies by folk that are so ridiculously far below his accomplishments is just entertaining at best, really sad more likely.
Amazing when people assume so much and we know what "assume" does....

On a lighter note, any Canucks want to chip in on how it's working for you? Costs?
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How about this, get back to me when he makes his decision. Then you maybe can rub my nose in his Solomon like fantastic "deal" for ATC.

As far as I can see, he makes deals to gain the most benefit for himself, which isn't really the same as trying to solve a problem wisely.
 
Everyone is all up in arms over privatization. Yes it has done damage to GA in Europe and Australia, but you have to consider that in those countries the vast majority of fields had control towers. I fly int the southeast and a quick look at the Atlanta sectional shows only a handful of controlled fields.The way the system is now VFR pilots flying in and out of uncontrolled fields are pay the same taxes for ATC to support a system that they don't use. Maybe I'm completely off base but I don't think that privatization will be the death knell that it is being made out to be. Yes it will probably get more expensive the fly IFR, but then You'll be picking up the part of the tab that guys like me have been paying all along. But hey I'm weird in that I fly a 1948 Vagabond with no electrical system, and avoid controlled airspace like the plague. I even hand propped by myself several times yesterday, how nuts is that. And don't even get me started about flying gliders around ( no engine, no transponder, no strobes ) I must be insane.
 
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What portion of Avgas tax exclusively goes towards ATC? and the balance towards aviation infrastructure, ie: physical maintenance of airports, landing systems, GPS, VOR, ADS-B ground base and GPS interface broadcast services, etc.

Is he talking just ATC? If that's it, then what about the safety of just 'passenger flights'. John Q Public doesn't really understand the impact of GA, but everyone understands the 'Airlines', which by the way have recently given themselves a black eye. Both of which are political moves, IMHO.

Focus on the 'quality' of the system today, and what risk or improvement privatizing the system would impact. Taxes are here to stay, so it will no doubt increase the cost to fly if you want to be in the system (IFR). Guessing more VFR X/C's w/o flight following would result, and frankly with ADS-B at no less risk as it relates to traffic avoidance.
 
Ravioli said:
Even Mari knows to close this thread post haste. Nothing but politics here. Starting with "Trump will host airline executives (no GA folks, apparently) at the WH to push for ATC privatization next week. It will be the "headline" of his infrastructure push. Looks like opposition will have to take place in Congress" as paraphrased from WAPO.
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Lest we have threads on pilots of America which directly address potential issues for pilots in America lol

BYW changing the best aviation system on earth, something which IS NOT broken, is stuuuuuupid
 
User fees are just another tax. Avgas taxes will never go away.

James331 said:
Lest we have threads on pilots of America which directly address potential issues for pilots in America lol

BYW changing the best aviation system on earth, something which IS NOT broken, is stuuuuuupid
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When has that ever impeded politicians? Look at the proliferation of sanctuary cities that shelter criminals. Stupid is as stupid does...
 
N659HB said:
User fees are just another tax. Avgas taxes will never go away.



When has that ever impeded politicians? Look at the proliferation of sanctuary cities that shelter criminals. Stupid is as stupid does...
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Indeed, however I'd imaging there is enough voice that trump might avoid destroying our aviation system, I mean he's used GA a bit too.
 
iflyvfr said:
Look what privatization has done to flying in Europe.
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Europe is an example of too much government control. Not less.

Why the paranoia? GA is not being attacked or threatened. Privatizing ATC is nothing more than changing who signs the controller's paycheck.
 
jkoper said:
Everyone is all up in arms over privatization. Yes it has done damage to GA in Europe and Australia, but you have to consider that in those countries the vast majority of fields had control towers. I fly int the southeast and a quick look at the Atlanta sectional shows only a handful of controlled fields.The way the system is now VFR pilots flying in and out of uncontrolled fields are pay the same taxes for ATC to support a system that they don't use. Maybe I'm completely off base but I don't think that privatization will be the death knell that it is being made out to be. Yes it will probably get more expensive the fly IFR, but then You'll be picking up the part of the tab that guys like me have been paying all along. But hey I'm weird in that I fly a 1948 Vagabond with no electrical system, and avoid controlled airspace like the plague. I even hand propped by myself several times yesterday, how nuts is that. And don't even get me started about flying gliders around ( no engine, no transponder, no strobes ) I must be insane.
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Yes, I've been up in arms about privatization for as long as I can remember; as I said above, I drank the AOPA koolade because it is believable based on observable evidence (the way the rest of the world works).

jkoper, you raise a good question because my assumption is that all those silly control towers for a bunch of Cessna 150s buzzing around a grass strip are a direct result of the privatization effort over there. ATC appears to exist so they can record and tax (fine?) you for flying.
 
Palmpilot said:
If I start lying about my politics, I'm afraid I might turn into a politician! :eek:
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By telling him you love him, you aren't lying about your politics, just who you like :aureola:
Sales reps do this all the time, as do CEOs and anyone else wanting to make a deal.
 
citizen5000 said:
Europe is an example of too much government control. Not less.

Why the paranoia? GA is not being attacked or threatened. Privatizing ATC is nothing more than changing who signs the controller's paycheck.
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Everything I've read says GA is unaffordable in Europe and articles have cited outrageous fees for doing TNGs. Isn't my paranoia (I'd call it concern since it appears to be a real phenomenon) warranted? Or am I way out in left field?
 
I think the fear of this change is worse than the actual change that will occur. I understand the concern that GA feels like it's hanging on by a thread, and this could push it over the edge. But no big decision seems to push the GA needle in either direction. Look at the "major" achievements for GA recently with the light sport category, medical reform, and part 23 certification changes. All hailed as major pluses, but at the end of the day, not a whole lot changes for GA.
 
citizen5000 said:
Europe is an example of too much government control. Not less.

Why the paranoia? GA is not being attacked or threatened. Privatizing ATC is nothing more than changing who signs the controller's paycheck.
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Yup. The precedent is already there. Contract Towers. Those are at slower Towers. They get by with fewer employees than would be there if they were run "directly" by the FAA. The FAA retains authority over the rules and regulations but the personnel headaches are taken care of by the contractor. This results in fewer employees with less payroll, less middle management and a CEO who hits the jackpot. Moving this personnel "model" up into the entire ATC system will likely result in a degradation of some services to some aspects of GA.
 
Cluemeister said:
I think the fear of this change is worse than the actual change that will occur. I understand the concern that GA feels like it's hanging on by a thread, and this could push it over the edge. But no big decision seems to push the GA needle in either direction. Look at the "major" achievements for GA recently with the light sport category, medical reform, and part 23 certification changes. All hailed as major pluses, but at the end of the day, not a whole lot changes for GA.
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But you forgot the ADSB which is going to hurt much of the fleet

All the new "security" BS for new student pilots to get their student pilot cert

The dumbing down of slow flight and stalls in the AC

Etc etc

I'm just not a fan of changing things which work, we got tons of crap in this country which doesn't work, let's worry about that stuff, and leave one of the only things which actually works really well alone.
 
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I haven't made up my mind on this. As a USAF pilot I saw the good and bad of the FAA running things. As an a aviation manager for my company's corporate jet, I don't like paying Canadian airspace fees when we have to fly up there.
 
Cap'n Jack said:
By telling him you love him, you aren't lying about your politics, just who you like :aureola:
Sales reps do this all the time, as do CEOs and anyone else wanting to make a deal.
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If I start lying about which politicians I "love," I'm afraid I might turn into a politician myself! :eek:
 
Palmpilot said:
If I start lying about which politicians I "love," I'm afraid I might turn into a politician myself! :eek:
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Yup, it's all about telling people what they want and appealing to their egos. This not only has to do with politics, as in government, but it's true in the private sector as well.
 
It seems like we're reacting based on assumption. The assumption is that there will be user fees and that they way they are assessed and the rates will make things unaffordable. Most fields private pilots operate out of are uncontrolled. Suppose fees only apply to controlled fees... or they just charge you a $100 yearly fee... or maybe they decide having the little airplanes talking to ATC is worth subsidizing the cost and we don't pay anything.

Heck maybe even the airlines have enough sense to know where their pilots come from and take that into consideration.
 
cowman said:
It seems like we're reacting based on assumption. The assumption is that there will be user fees and that they way they are assessed and the rates will make things unaffordable. Most fields private pilots operate out of are uncontrolled. Suppose fees only apply to controlled fees... or they just charge you a $100 yearly fee... or maybe they decide having the little airplanes talking to ATC is worth subsidizing the cost and we don't pay anything.

Heck maybe even the airlines have enough sense to know where their pilots come from and take that into consideration.
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Fees are not the only issue. There's also safety to consider. Are you aware of what a zoo it was when Flight Service was privatized? Can you imagine the possible consequences of privatized ATC having to climb a similar learning curve, with OUR lives at risk?

There's also the issue of governance. With government ATC, there is at least a possibility of GA influencing decisions through our elected representatives. And since ATC is inherently a monopoly, pilots can't even vote with their feet (or wings), because it will likely be one corporation nationwide (with the possible exception of control towers).
 
Is it now acceptable to post ones personal opinion about a politicians personal idiosyncrasies here?
 
Palmpilot said:
Fees are not the only issue. There's also safety to consider. Are you aware of what a zoo it was when Flight Service was privatized? Can you imagine the possible consequences of privatized ATC having to climb a similar learning curve, with OUR lives at risk?
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I think that was mostly due to a learning curve. They got better. Now they're obsolete. Most people get all their information and file electronically.
 
The other concern is that if privatization is written with a profit motive for ATC, or even a major push to keep costs down, the services provided for "small" GA could be cut/eliminated. VFR flight following as a big example. Just taking guesses of course since no details of even an initial proposal have been announced.



cowman said:
It seems like we're reacting based on assumption. The assumption is that there will be user fees and that they way they are assessed and the rates will make things unaffordable. Most fields private pilots operate out of are uncontrolled. Suppose fees only apply to controlled fees... or they just charge you a $100 yearly fee... or maybe they decide having the little airplanes talking to ATC is worth subsidizing the cost and we don't pay anything.

Heck maybe even the airlines have enough sense to know where their pilots come from and take that into consideration.
Click to expand...
 
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IDK, from what I've always heard VFR flight following can be as helpful to the controllers as it is to the pilots. Maybe they'll see it that way too...

But yeah we're all just guessing here. I don't think there's anything inherently bad about privatization, it's going to come down to how the rules are written and how it gets managed. Until someone puts down a detailed proposal we have no idea.
 
Palmpilot said:
If I start lying about which politicians I "love," I'm afraid I might turn into a politician myself! :eek:
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I don't think you read the next line in my post... Everskyward did...
Everskyward said:
Yup, it's all about telling people what they want and appealing to their egos. This not only has to do with politics, as in government, but it's true in the private sector as well.
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Every successful sales person I know does this- tell people what they want and appeal to their egos. Anyone who makes a deal for a corporate takeover, or corporate cooperation does this too. I don't think it's a bad idea to do unto politicians as they do unto us.
 
Palmpilot said:
Fees are not the only issue. There's also safety to consider. Are you aware of what a zoo it was when Flight Service was privatized? Can you imagine the possible consequences of privatized ATC having to climb a similar learning curve, with OUR lives at risk?

There's also the issue of governance. With government ATC, there is at least a possibility of GA influencing decisions through our elected representatives. And since ATC is inherently a monopoly, pilots can't even vote with their feet (or wings), because it will likely be one corporation nationwide (with the possible exception of control towers).
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On the other hand, if it's priced using a demand model (such as the pricing of the toll lanes in I95 and I495 in Virginia) with credits or price breaks depending on the number of SOB, then it may price GA out in many places. In Virginia, no legislative review was permitted, and the US DoT approved it. Side note: the private companies got effective subsidies as they tapped government backed bonds rather than full commercial bonding/borrowing.
atbroome said:
The other concern is that if privatization is written with a profit motive for ATC, or even a major push to keep costs down, the services provided for "small" GA could be cut/eliminated. VFR flight following as a big example. Just taking guesses of course since no details of even an initial proposal have been announced.
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Smaller towers might well be eliminated (or replaced by the kind of automated/non-manned tower that's being tested at JYO), too, and lower priority or higher prices for small GA. But we really don't know yet.

cowman said:
IDK, from what I've always heard VFR flight following can be as helpful to the controllers as it is to the pilots. Maybe they'll see it that way too...

But yeah we're all just guessing here. I don't think there's anything inherently bad about privatization, it's going to come down to how the rules are written and how it gets managed. Until someone puts down a detailed proposal we have no idea.
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Inherently, the cost of handling an aircraft is the same regardless of the number of SOB. One could argue that the demand on the system by a small/slower GA aircraft is higher because it is slower and remains in the system and/or sectors for a longer period of time. We will have to see what gets proposed, and by whom.
 
 
It's worth nothing that this didn't even make it out of committee last time. It's got widespread disapproval.

I do not think this will pass.
 
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