Trouble Judging when to start Descending in pattern

[IlyaK18]

Hello all, Currently training in a Piper Warrior, the question I had was if there is any way to know when to start descending from traffic pattern altitude. I have no issue with it when doing a standard pattern, but when I am told to extend downwind or do a straight in , I get a little confused. Thanks

 

[warthog1984]

Straight-In: rule of thumb for 500fpm descent in light singles is [Alt to lose in 1000s of FT]*3 = [TOD in NM].

Extended downwind: delay for 2x the extension, then start normal descent. IE: if it is a 5 second extension, start descent 10 seconds after abeam the numbers.

 

[Jim Logajan]

Do a net search for TLAR and glider flying. For example:

http://home.comcast.net/~verhulst/GBSC/student/HowFarCanYouSpit.pdf

It is indeed relevant to landing powered airplanes.

 

[FastEddieB]

Hello all, Currently training in a Piper Warrior, the question I had was if there is any way to know when to start descending from traffic pattern altitude. I have no issue with it when doing a standard pattern, but when I am told to extend downwind or do a straight in , I get a little confused. Thanks

It will eventually become natural and obvious.

Until it does, not sure that formulas work that well. At least I never used them in the pattern nor exposed my students to them in that aspect of flying.

I would advise my students, if being forced to extend downwind or to do a straight-in, to maintain pattern altitude and slow down, then to imagine the standard pattern as a string which had been cut and stretched out to coincide with where they were. IOW, you might see that you're in a huge pattern but that right now you're about where you would be, distance wise, if you were abeam the numbers - hence, your speed and descent rate should coincide.

Similarly, if incrementally deploying flaps, they would go down at the same points on the "string" as you would in a normal pattern.

Like most things in flying, it eventually becomes second nature, but until it does sometimes visualization tricks like the above help.

But by all means run this by your instructor - he or she should be the first person you ask and you should weigh their input heavily.

 

[Geico266]

A Garmin GPS will calculate the rate of descent to pattern altitude. Its a good tool to use to help judge what is needed.

Also, you sould be at pattern altitude a couple miles outside of the pattern IMHO. Descending into the pattern can be interesting if you don't see the NORDOs.

 

[write-stuff]

I would advise my students, if being forced to extend downwind or to do a straight-in, to maintain pattern altitude and slow down, then to imagine the standard pattern as a string which had been cut and stretched out to coincide with where they were.

Yep, exactly what I tell them, too. Works well.

 

[FastEddieB]

A Garmin GPS will calculate the rate of descent to pattern altitude. Its a good tool to use to help judge what is needed.

Also, you sould be at pattern altitude a couple miles outside of the pattern IMHO. Descending into the pattern can be interesting if you don't see the NORDOs.

1) I do not think a student pilot should be referencing a GPS in the pattern. If that makes me a Luddite, so be it.

(Edited to add: I think I misread you. Yes, as shown below very handy to set up a vertical descent profile on a GPS and use it to manage descent. I would still hesitate to have a student relying on it too soon, however.)

2) My preference is to overfly the airport at least 500' above the pattern, and my GPS is set to get me there 3 miles from the airport. I then fly outbound to get clear of the pattern before descending to hit midfield downwind at about 45°. Just a personal technique that has served me well, and not the only way to do it.

 

[EdFred]

Well, there's a couple ways you can try out and see if they work.

When told to extend downwind, make a visual note of where you would be when you would normally start to descend. Don't bother descending on base, and when they have you turn final, keep your altitude until that place you visually noted is 45 degrees from your current position. (10:30 position for left patter, 1:30 position for right pattern) Then reduce power to what you would on downwind and you should be pretty close.

Or, the beauty of trimming for the correct speed. You have a sight picture in your head of where the runway numbers on in the windscreen when you are on final in a normal pattern right? You know when you seem high or seem low - or should, right? Well, when on a long final from either a straight in or from an extended downwind, you can do one of two things with that sight picture:

1) Pick a spot where you think you should start your descent. Reduce power to what you normally would for your descent from downwind. If the runway numbers are too high in the windscreen from their familiar place, you started too early. Add power to maintain altitude, wait a bit, and try it again. Of course if you reduce power and the numbers never make it up to their familiar spot in the windscreen, you waited too long. Now you get to practice slips or a go around.

2) Wait until the runway numbers get blocked by the cowl of the airplane. Reduce power slowly until the runway numbers are in the familiar spot in the windscreen. Make power adjustments to keep them in that spot.

Eventually, you will just know when to do it.

 

[MAKG1]

Since most students are taught to fly final slower than downwind by some 10 knots at least, the formula would appear to be a recipe for approaching short.

As a student, I was taught to unroll the pattern. These days, I do not descend until turning base (which is necessary most of the time because extensions are given as "I'll call your base") or even later if the extension is long. And then adjust power to intersect the runway by sight picture. This will differ from visual glideslope aids. If they are all white, that's fine. If they are all red, arrest the descent until that changes.

A rule of thumb is you should be descending when the threshold is one hands' width below the horizon, at arms length (that's about a 5 deg descent, slightly steeper than the usual 4 deg piston VASI -- start removing fingers if you don't like that). That may be difficult to do on a left base, but you'll quickly learn what it looks like.

It will come with practice.

 

[tehmightypirate]

My personal approximate rule-of-thumb has been that if you must extend your downwind then start the descent after you turn base, this way you'll probably be slightly high on final but with the long final this will work in your favor and you can easily settle down to the glide slope.

For VERY long extended downwinds or very wide patterns I basically don't start descent (if at all) until partway through the base leg, at which point you should easily be able to decide how high or low you are.

Generally this will get you pretty close and the wide pattern allows any loss of precision to be made up on final. The advantage of this is it keeps you high (in case of obstructions outside of the usual pattern), allows for better gliding to safety, and doesn't require any mental math or measurements.

 

[FastEddieB]

As a student, I was taught to unroll the pattern.

Nice way to put it that I had not heard before.

Same concept as I posted earlier, I think: "...imagine the standard pattern as a string which had been cut and stretched out to coincide with where they were."

 

[Owad1971]

This was a good question! At my airport, depending how busy it is, the "pattern" sometimes goes all the way to the inner- shore line. (Gotta love FRG in Apr-May). If there is tons of traffic, I like to keep at tpa until the tower calls my base...then its mostly by feel until I get back to my normal sight picture on the now long-ish final. We have some obstructions and politically active neighbors- as a newly minted airman I don't want to ruffle feathers in the neghborhood.

 

[spdracer888]

This was a good question! At my airport, depending how busy it is, the "pattern" sometimes goes all the way to the inner- shore line. (Gotta love FRG in Apr-May). If there is tons of traffic, I like to keep at tpa until the tower calls my base...then its mostly by feel until I get back to my normal sight picture on the now long-ish final. We have some obstructions and politically active neighbors- as a newly minted airman I don't want to ruffle feathers in the neghborhood.

My downwind for 19 was extended 2 miles north of the mall on Saturday. For every touch and go, I see another $40 (+$2.50 landing fee) out the window.

 

[Skyscraper]

If being instructed to extend down wind, I keep TPA until I get my next set of instructions. I don't want to be descending until I know my exact path and distance all the way to touch down.

 

[eetrojan]

If being instructed to extend down wind, I keep TPA until I get my next set of instructions. I don't want to be descending until I know my exact path and distance all the way to touch down.

Just as another data point, when asked to extend my downwind, I was taught to gently climb above TPA while extending, or request a left or right 360 as appropriate to the pattern, in order to stay within glide distance.

 

[EdFred]

Just as another data point, when asked to extend my downwind, I was taught to gently climb above TPA while extending, or request a left or right 360 as appropriate to the pattern, in order to stay within glide distance.

You were taught wrong. TPA is TPA.

 

[eetrojan]

You were taught wrong. TPA is TPA.

Can you help me reconcile your comment with this post?:

http://www.pilotsofamerica.com/forum/showpost.php?p=501143&postcount=51

In this thread?

http://www.pilotsofamerica.com/forum/showthread.php?t=31761

Thanks!

Happy to learn...

 

[Owad1971]

My downwind for 19 was extended 2 miles north of the mall on Saturday. For every touch and go, I see another $40 (+$2.50 landing fee) out the window.

At least you were airborne....one May weekend afternoon I waited on the Delta side of Rwy 32 for 35 mins.....

...after that episode I asked my instructior to start meeting me at 630am for our lessons! As a recently retired guy, he prefered the early times so he could have the rest of the day to himself! This worked beautifully over last summer as a student. I got to practice regular pattern work and Class E airport operations a little...plus landings before tower opens are free!!!!!

 

[Matthew]

Just as another data point, when asked to extend my downwind, I was taught to gently climb above TPA while extending, or request a left or right 360 as appropriate to the pattern, in order to stay within glide distance.

Climbing above TPA at my airports puts you in with the jets. Depending on the tailwind I'll set up for slow flight or ask for a 360, or just keep flying.

 

[Sac Arrow]

As a student, I was taught to unroll the pattern.

I do the same thing. If I'm asked to extend my downwind, I'll just hold my altitude until tower says it's okay to turn base or I have the traffic I'm following, at which point it turns in to a straight in approach usually. I don't really apply formulas, I just visualize distances. Fairly non-critical in an Arrow since it will drop like a rock if I want it to. In a floaty 172 you have to think about it more.

 

[mtuomi]

At least you were airborne....one May weekend afternoon I waited on the Delta side of Rwy 32 for 35 mins.....

...after that episode I asked my instructior to start meeting me at 630am for our lessons! As a recently retired guy, he prefered the early times so he could have the rest of the day to himself! This worked beautifully over last summer as a student. I got to practice regular pattern work and Class E airport operations a little...plus landings before tower opens are free!!!!!

I was nr 6 for rwy 19 a few weeks ago. 45 minutes from Ventura to takeoff. Almost made me sick watching that Hobbs go round and round...

 

[eetrojan]

Climbing above TPA at my airports puts you in with the jets. Depending on the tailwind I'll set up for slow flight or ask for a 360, or just keep flying.

Just curious, I looked at one of your home airports, KOJC, or Johnson Executive in Kansas City, Missouri. (many of my relatives are from KC by the way!)

Relative to KOJC, are you talking about the jets bound for Kansas City Intl to the north, or the higher performance aircraft that are also bound for KOJC but, per the AFD, have a TPA of 2596 rather than 2096 that is assigned to "low performance acft"?

 

[EdFred]

Can you help me reconcile your comment with this post?:

http://www.pilotsofamerica.com/forum/showpost.php?p=501143&postcount=51

In this thread?

http://www.pilotsofamerica.com/forum/showthread.php?t=31761

Thanks!

Happy to learn...

What happens when you climb 500' into that turbo prop above you without letting the tower know?

 

[Matthew]

Just curious, I looked at one of your home airports, KOJC, or Johnson Executive in Kansas City, Missouri. (many of my relatives are from KC by the way!)

Relative to KOJC, are you talking about the jets bound for Kansas City Intl to the north, or the higher performance aircraft that are also bound for KOJC but, per the AFD, have a TPA of 2596 rather than 2096 that is assigned to "low performance acft"?

The jets going into MCI or MKC are well above the Class D. What I am talking about is TPA - there is one for pistons and another for turbines. This is pretty common at a lot of airports. There are enough turbines in the pattern, usually a little wider than the pistons, too, so that if you extend and climb, you may end up in the same place as the turbine the controller is trying tyo keep you away from.

PS - let us know if you visit the area.


Edit - what airport are you at, and what is the published TPA?

 

[eetrojan]

The jets going into MCI or MKC are well above the Class D. What I am talking about is TPA - there is one for pistons and another for turbines. This is pretty common at a lot of airports. There are enough turbines in the pattern, usually a little wider than the pistons, too, so that if you extend and climb, you may end up in the same place as the turbine the controller is trying to keep you away from.

PS - let us know if you visit the area.


Edit - what airport are you at, and what is the published TPA?

My home airport is John Wayne (KSNA) in Southern California. There are two parallel runways, usually operating as 19L and 19R. Small planes usually land on 19L which has left traffic and a published TPA of 856 (800) for small aircraft and 1556 (1500) for turbine aircraft over 12,500 lbs.

The airport is surrounded by suburban sprawl and, save for the shuttered marine base that is a couple of miles to the northeast and would be a good option if I went REALLY far, doesn't offer a lot of off-field landing sites.

When I climb on an extended downwind to stay within glide distance, rather than ask for a right 360, it’s a very subtle fraction of that 700 foot difference in TPA, say 1 to 300 feet or so, or about 1100 MSL max, depending on the degree of the extension. I have never even been close to the 1556 altitude.

If I’m told to extend, then the flaps stay in and I maintain TPA after being abeam the threshhold, rather than descending, and if I start to go long, will twist up my power and climb a little. This is what I was taught by a school that has been operating on this field for 25 or 30 years.

So, here are some dumb, recent-student questions for you and EdFred–

1. If tower has two TPAs, with aircraft in both patterns, how exactly does tower sequence and space them?
   
2. Does tower treat them as completely separate patterns and try to merge them together at some point on base or final?
   
3. Do I need to worry about a faster aircraft passing directly overhead by a couple hundred feet such that I can’t, as PIC, choose to gain a little altitude on an extended downwind for safety?
   
4. If the faster turbine aircraft are flying there in that higher TPA race track, aren’t they wider too, not directly overhead my tighter pattern?

Thanks for the invite! Someday perhaps. And, if you're ever out this way, give me a shout.

 

[JOhnH]

You were taught wrong. TPA is TPA.

I'm not sure how true that is. It may be, but at our class Delta airport, we are underneath a Class C outer ring, so if we fly 200 ft higher than TPA, we better be talking to Charlie.

For long straight ins, it might be helpful to use the Visual Approach Slope Indicator lights (if available and working). Ignore your VSI (well, don't really ignore it) but just make sure you are in the proper glide path.

 

[Matthew]

My home airport is John Wayne (KSNA) in Southern California. There are two parallel runways, usually operating as 19L and 19R. Small planes usually land on 19L which has left traffic and a published TPA of 856 (800) for small aircraft and 1556 (1500) for turbine aircraft over 12,500 lbs.

The airport is surrounded by suburban sprawl and, save for the shuttered marine base that is a couple of miles to the northeast and would be a good option if I went REALLY far, doesn't offer a lot of off-field landing sites.

When I climb on an extended downwind to stay within glide distance, rather than ask for a right 360, it’s a very subtle fraction of that 700 foot difference in TPA, say 1 to 300 feet or so, or about 1100 MSL max, depending on the degree of the extension. I have never even been close to the 1556 altitude.

If I’m told to extend, then the flaps stay in and I maintain TPA after being abeam the threshhold, rather than descending, and if I start to go long, will twist up my power and climb a little. This is what I was taught by a school that has been operating on this field for 25 or 30 years.

So, here are some dumb, recent-student questions for you and EdFred–

1. If tower has two TPAs, with aircraft in both patterns, how exactly does tower sequence and space them?
2. Does tower treat them as completely separate patterns and try to merge them together at some point on base or final?
3. Do I need to worry about a faster aircraft passing directly overhead by a couple hundred feet such that I can’t, as PIC, choose to gain a little altitude on an extended downwind for safety?
4. If the faster turbine aircraft are flying there in that higher TPA race track, aren’t they wider too, not directly overhead my tighter pattern?

Thanks for the invite! Someday perhaps. And, if you're ever out this way, give me a shout.

You're going to have to hear from a CFI or anybody else smarter than I am.

Sounds like you are being taught to cheat 'a little bit' on your TPA when extending downwind. Your local tower may be used to that behavior and take it into account - but then you may fly to another airport where the tower might not be so forgiving, and that controller may have told you to "extend downwind" and not expected you to "extend downwind and climb". Tower controllers will sequence traffic the best way they can, there really aren't 2 different patterns at two different altitudes. By climbing, you will end up at an altitude where other traffic in the pattern isn't expecting you to be. They'll usually expect to see you either at TPA for pistons or TPA for turbines, and not somewhere in between. In the pattern in VMC, even at a towered field, you are still responsible for traffic separation (see and avoid).

 

[zaitcev]

I just fly TPA until I see the same sight picture that I'd get on a good final doing a normal pattern. So, before that moment if engine quits I land in a field. After that moment, on runway. This creates a "stepped" profile but so what. I'm not in an airshow beauty contest.

I can also drag it in like airliner, using the numbers quoted above at first, then the sight picture of imaginary or actual PAPI/VASI, but I do not feel comfortable doing it in basic singles.

Anyhow, I find it easier to judge long straight in approaches than pattern. In the pattern there's wind that acts in various directions at various legs. I am a little surprised that original question was presuming that pattern was easier. In many cases at an unfamiliar field I have to slip on final or even add power at times. I practice and practice, and keep doing these ugly patterns... I logged more than 440 landings by now.

 

[NovemberZulu]

I learned the "string" method too, but I've found it really hard to visualize on long straight ins.

What's worked for me every time at my home airport is that I know what point I usually turn final at, and how high I am. If I'm extended on the downwind or have a straight in, when I get to that point it's easy to glance at the altimeter and know if I'm too high or low and still have plenty of time to adjust the sink rate.

Obviously it doesn't work as well at unfamiliar airports, but even then I've learned to estimate what my normal final distance looks like with reasonable accuracy.

 

[MAKG1]

I learned the "string" method too, but I've found it really hard to visualize on long straight ins.

Here's a trick.

A properly flown ideal pattern has a 1/2 mile downwind past the numbers, a 1/2 mile base, and a 1/2 mile final. That means 1.5 miles for the descent. About 8000 feet if you like.

Know your runway length -- mine is slightly less than1/2 mile at the home airport (most of the other runways in the region are longer). Use it as a yardstick. At PAO, start the descent 3 runway lengths out for a straight-in. For a 4000 foot runway, use 2 runway lengths.

You use a similar trick to space your downwind against the runway, at least in no wind. At PAO, I want to be one runway length away from the numbers when passing abeam.

As for the multiple TPAs, I've never noticed a difference nor a problem if you treat the approach visually. The higher TPAs will end up needing slightly lower throttle and slightly higher sink rate than the lower ones. The differences are not big, and you'll get much larger variance just from all the students flying B-52 patterns 2+ miles out.

PAO has 1000 and 800 foot patterns. They mesh without much difficulty. On the bayside, you need to know to look up a bit to find traffic on the cityside pattern, and to look down a little if it's the other way around. Not a big deal. Both OAK and HWD have 600 foot patterns as well, on one runway.

I don't think it's a good idea to exceed TPA even if the airspace allows it (MANY places do not). It makes it harder for you to spot traffic if it is below you against a cityscape. It is much easier if the other traffic is at or above your altitude. Though TPAs are advisory (except if you're on a check ride…), the point is to keep all aircraft approaching for a landing at the same altitude for a bit so that they are easier to spot.

 

[FastEddieB]

Anyhow, I find it easier to judge long straight in approaches than pattern. In the pattern there's wind that acts in various directions at various legs. I am a little surprised that original question was presuming that pattern was easier.

I have found pilots struggle with long straight in approaches, ending up higher or lower than they mean to.

One function of a rectangular pattern is to provide "key" points, that in my experience students, and pilots in general, find easier to hit. Generations of pilots have used traffic patterns to good effect, and they remain recommended*.

I suspect you're an exception, but whatever works for you!


*NOT required, so no need to go there.

 

[IlyaK18]

My downwind for 19 was extended 2 miles north of the mall on Saturday. For every touch and go, I see another $40 (+$2.50 landing fee) out the window.

I also fly out of FRG, was also flying on Saturday. Spent 20 mins holding short for runway 19, and the pattern was super busy. Yea the money is an issue, but I find its also good practice to fly around in a busy pattern and talk to ATC about the extensions and look for the traffic. Got used to flying around FRG , and when I went to a less busy field everything was easy and I felt more confident.

 

[mtuomi]

We seem to have quite a few pilots flying out of KFRG here.

Meetup for a few beers at the Hooters some day?

 

[Owad1971]

We seem to have quite a few pilots flying out of KFRG here.

Meetup for a few beers at the Hooters some day?

YESSSS!!!!

 

[mtuomi]

Hope FRG guys went flying today. It was an amazing day. Winds calm, sky clear. Couldn't have been better!

Perhaps we should start a thread somewhere to plan the day. Maybe go flying around, and then beers somewhere afterwards?

 

[jordane93]

Hope FRG guys went flying today. It was an amazing day. Winds calm, sky clear. Couldn't have been better!

Perhaps we should start a thread somewhere to plan the day. Maybe go flying around, and then beers somewhere afterwards?

It was really nice today at Republic. I flew a complex for the first time today for my Commercial training! It was pretty different but a lot of fun

 

[eetrojan]

You were taught wrong. TPA is TPA.

Hey EdFred and others - Just FYI, and I appreciate differences of opinion, but I went ahead and sent this question to a KSNA controller that has been super nice and approachable. Here's my question and what they had to say in response.

My take away is that it's definitely OK to climb, provided that you are hitting TPA on the downwind, at the midfield point, as that is where they may direct a higher flying aircraft to cross over.

I wouldn't even consider a gentle climb until after I'm abeam the numbers, long after the midpoint.

Anyway, just some different input.

On Mon, Mar 3, 2014 at 3:11 PM, Joe wrote:

Hi XXXXXX –

If you find yourself with a moment or two, I’ve got a couple more dumb pilot questions for you.

Runway 19L has a published TPA of 856 for pistons and 1556 for turbines.

When the pattern gets a bit busy, and Tower says, “BugSmasher 345, extend your downwind, I’ll call your base,” is it ok for the pilot to gently climb by 2-300 feet while extending and without asking/advising Tower in order to maintain a safe gliding altitude back to the field if there is a loss of power?

This is what I was taught, but after receiving some water-cooler criticism from other pilots, I’m uncertain if it’s ok or correct from ATC's point of view given the two vertically-spaced TPAs.

As a follow up, assuming that you have turbine aircraft in the pattern, at their higher TPA and presumably in their wider pattern and at their higher pattern speeds, can you elaborate a bit on how you guys sequence/advise everybody?

Thanks!

Joe

From: Tower
Sent: Tuesday, March 04, 2014 9:43 AM
To: Joe

Hi Joe....

Never worry about asking questions! I've never had someone ask about the small climb to maintain a safe gliding distance, but it's a great question. The final and most important word comes from the pilot in command. If you feel you need to climb a bit to maintain safety, then you should do it. You are only talking about 2-300 feet, and presumably, would not do this till you have passed the midfield point in the downwind, and are beginning to extend. The reason I mention this, is because the altitude is most important to us when we have aircraft crossing over the top to join the left pattern. We tell them to stay at or above 1300, because the pattern is at 800. However, if we see that an aircraft is higher on the downwind, we will just tell the pilot crossing over the top to stay at or above a higher altitude, if necessary. A lot of the BL8's tend to fly a higher pattern, so this isn't unusual. Bottom line....You definitely should climb if you feel it's necessary, and you will not be doing anything incorrect. We are supposed to work around what is actually happening, vs. what the perfect normal pattern is.

As for the higher faster guys in the pattern, that's a matter of technique. I'll speak for myself and say....
-If my pattern is busy and the 19R controller has a spot, I'll try to bring the fast guy over the top to land 19R. Or left traffic for 19R can work too, based on traffic.
-I can extend someone's upwind to follow the fast guy in, small extension for the slower aircraft, but gets the fast one down and out of the way.
-I can extend the fast aircraft , or slow him, or both, to follow slower traffic.
-I can ask the slower one in front of him if they can make a short apch, which would reduce the downwind extension for the fast guy.

Those are some of the more common plans I use, but am always willing to go to plan E,F or G if necessary!

I've been here for so long, that I have a big "tool bag", but controllers do all sorts of (often creative) things to make a plan come together. When we train the new guys, we try to pass along any and all techniques that have ever worked, to give a sort of starting point!

Hope that gives you a little more insight....but if you need any more info, just let me know!

 

[EdFred]

Hey EdFred and others - Just FYI, and I appreciate differences of opinion, but I went ahead and sent this question to a KSNA controller that has been super nice and approachable. Here's my question and what they had to say in response.

My take away is that it's definitely OK to climb, provided that you are hitting TPA on the downwind, at the midfield point, as that is where they may direct a higher flying aircraft to cross over.

I wouldn't even consider a gentle climb until after I'm abeam the numbers, long after the midpoint.

Anyway, just some different input.

Then you shouldn't have any issue doing that at SNA. Other towers may have issues. I have heard a few around here remind pilots that TPA was xxxx.

 

[jordane93]

Then you shouldn't have any issue doing that at SNA. Other towers may have issues. I have heard a few around here remind pilots that TPA was xxxx.

Didn't someone on here bust a checkride because of not flying the published TPA?

 

[eetrojan]

Didn't someone on here bust a checkride because of not flying the published TPA?

If I recall correctly, the applicant didn't know or attempt to determine the published TPA, and just used the standard TPA.

In my opinion, being at the correct TPA when on the downwind, and climbing a little for safety if extended past the normal base turn, is not "busting" TPA.