Trouble in Blue Angels land

S

slavinger

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yippie
Did you hear that the Blue Angels CO is getting his butt kicked over the naughty things going on on his watch? I get the male bonding thing and camaraderie, but somebody explain to me why a bunch of highly trained and self-respecting professionals need to get this low? Did you hear about the giant p****s painted on the roof of their hangar, even to be picked up by Google Maps satellite view? COME ON, acting like a bunch of insecure teenagers! Totally unbecoming of officers, IMHO. :mad2:
 
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I worry about them boys painting a big dick on top of the hangar.

If it were me, it would've been boobs. :goofy:
 
I remember when GHW bush and wife had the poor tail hook girl pilot to the White House and a collective sob was filmed as the three of them pondered the "unfairness of it all". ( not to mention that two other female pilots interviewed said they had a great time.) this went on and on. Many other instances of females beset upon. Too many for this captain not to have been well aware of the potential trouble he would cause with this stupid behavior. Hard to tell why he pushed this but the outcome was very predictable.
 
Jimmy cooper said:
I remember when GHW bush and wife had the poor tail hook girl pilot to the White House and a collective sob was filmed as the three of them pondered the "unfairness of it all". ( not to mention that two other female pilots interviewed said they had a great time.) this went on and on. Many other instances of females beset upon. Too many for this captain not to have been well aware of the potential trouble he would cause with this stupid behavior. Hard to tell why he pushed this but the outcome was very predictable.
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While I don't condone the conduct of the tail hook scandal the punishments involved were way too severe and in most cases completely inappropriate. Many fine aviators had their careers destroyed (CDR Stumpf) because of Ms Coughlin's agenda. She knew exactly what goes on that floor during tail hook and willingly went up there. She's no angel, just someone looking to make money off that situation. It worked.
 
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35 AoA said:
Though in fairness, she is now a yoga instructor in Jax so I guess it didn't work out that great for her
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Unless I'm confusing her with another former female Naval Aviator, she initially got out and tried to get an airline job but with so many former military pilots in the business, not surprisingly, she found many cockpit doors closed.
 
Velocity173 said:
While I don't condone the conduct of the tail hook scandal the punishments involved were way too severe and in most cases completely inappropriate. Many fine aviators had their careers destroyed (CDR Stumpf) destroyed because of Ms Coughlin's agenda. She knew exactly what goes on that floor during tail hook and willing went up there. She's no angel, just someone looking to make money off that situation. It worked.
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I've served with some Naval Aviators who had t-shirts made that said something to the effect of 'I was not at Tailhook!'
 
35 AoA said:
Though in fairness, she is now a yoga instructor in Jax so I guess it didn't work out that great for her
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Yeah she bought that with the 5.4 million that she got from the hotel and the tàilhook association.
 
Fearless Tower said:
I've served with some Naval Aviators who had t-shirts made that said something to the effect of 'I was not at Tailhook!'
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I've seen see that patch. It's like Bart Simpson or something. It's hilarious.
 
A navy captain, ( juicy rank) and in charge of the Blue Angels for the second time. Not very good judgement for this rank and position. It's just a shame. And yes, the females knew exactly what went on at tail hook so the so called shock factor seems like b.s. Punishment much too severe.
 
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political correctness bull****. They're ****ing fighter pilots. The WW2 generation is spinning in their graves right now.
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We're turning into a country of wusses. It may be too late to stop the trend?
Where's Steingar and some typical left wing blather?
 
I think this was around the time that in spite of navy instructors warning that she would eventually kill someone, a navy female pilot was allowed to graduate from flight school,( pressure from on high) and on a carrier landing, screwed up the approach. The backseater saw it coming , ejected and saved himself, she hit the carrier and died. May have been a tomcat she flew. Many excellent female military pilots however.
 
Jimmy cooper said:
I think this was around the time that in spite of navy instructors warning that she would eventually kill someone, a navy female pilot was allowed to graduate from flight school,( pressure from on high) and on a carrier landing, screwed up the approach. The backseater saw it coming , ejected and saved himself, she hit the carrier and died. May have been a tomcat she flew. Many excellent female military pilots however.
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If you're referring to Kara Hultgreen, that happened a couple years after Tailhook. You'll also read a lot of conflicting reports on her flying abilities from people both in and out of her squadron. While I would agree that at that time there was pressure to get women in the fighter / attack pipeline, I think it's impossible to determine if she was forced into an aircraft that exceeded her abilities. What is true, is that she put the aircraft into a position (high yaw) that exceeded her ability to recover it. If her Tomcat had GEs instead of PWs, she'd most likely be alive today.
 
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Jimmy cooper said:
I think this was around the time that in spite of navy instructors warning that she would eventually kill someone, a navy female pilot was allowed to graduate from flight school,( pressure from on high) and on a carrier landing, screwed up the approach. The backseater saw it coming , ejected and saved himself, she hit the carrier and died. May have been a tomcat she flew. Many excellent female military pilots however.
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Kara Hultgren's death wasn't about being 'allowed' to graduate from flight school. It was more about the Affirmative Action and the Navy 'accelerating her life'. She was already an established A-6 pilot when the Navy decided to send females to F-14s. She was chosen and fast-tracked through the Tomcat pipeline and ultimately made a rookie error that got her killed when the engine failed (likely due to being rushed through the program). The RIO didn't 'save himself'. He simply survived and she died due to the designed delay in ejection sequence.
 
So your saying that the many articles published explaining her instructors warnings were not true, that she was well qualified, and it was not her fault. Correct?
 
Jimmy cooper said:
So your saying that the many articles published explaining her instructors warnings were not true, that she was well qualified, and it was not her fault. Correct?
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And you'll find just as many comments from instructors in her RAG and her squadron (VF-213) commenting on what a good pilot she was. I've read her biography "Revlon" and while it was written by her mother, you'll find plenty of supporting comments from fellow shipmates as to her competence.

Since I never served with her and never flew in the Navy, I tend to refrain from voicing an opinion on her abilities and an accident that took place 20 yrs ago.
 
Jimmy cooper said:
So your saying that the many articles published explaining her instructors warnings were not true, that she was well qualified, and it was not her fault. Correct?
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I thought "...made a rookie error that got her killed..." made it pretty clear that he believes it was her fault.
 
Jimmy cooper said:
So your saying that the many articles published explaining her instructors warnings were not true, that she was well qualified, and it was not her fault. Correct?
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That's probably not what he's saying, but Tomcat single-engine departures in the pattern were not limited to inexperienced or unqualified crew. She wasn't the first, she wasn't the last, and good pilots make mistakes too.

Nauga,
who has seen fireballs out of both ends of a TF-30
 
kyleb said:
I thought "...made a rookie error that got her killed..." made it pretty clear that he believes it was her fault.
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Exactly. My point is that it wasn't her decision to rush through the pipeline and skimp on the training that a contemporary male pilot would have had to go through.
 
If anyone cares to get back to the original subject....sorry 'fearless' knowitall.....

Harry Happersen*>*Support Boss Greg McWherter
The Admiral has spoken, I have read the report, and the Navy has thrown a man’s career under the bus, wasting the millions spent on his training—and for what? To satisfy political correctness and the miserable whining of some overly-sensitive woman who had no place in a Ready Room to begin with.*

Is it more important to the US Navy that no one died under Boss McWherter’s four years in command (the Blue Angels pilot mortality rate since they started is 10%)? Or is it more important that a crew chief slipped a photo into the cockpit similar to ones that thousands of soldiers and sailors have probably pasted by their bunks?*

Is it more important to the Navy that millions of American youngsters were thrilled by the Blue Angels under Boss McWherter’s safe leadership? Or is it more important that someone painted a dick on the top of the center point trailer at El Centro that probably threw some Google maps enthusiast into spasms of laughter when it was spotted from space? (I think that’s pretty funny actually—and I’m almost 70 so appreciation for “juvenile and sophomoric” behavior is not confined to young fighter pilots.)

Is it more important to the Navy that a leader keeps the team free of fraternization and adultery, or that he keeps porno-pumpkins out of the Ready Room?

Is it more important to the Navy that those who served and trained under Boss McWherter would follow him anywhere? Or more important that the one person who chose to surround herself with fighter pilots gets her definition of sexual harassment endorsed? Talk about putting yourself into the position to be offended! If you don’t like the high octane life of fighter pilots, then go and knit yourself a scarf and don’t even try to think you are in any way the equal to them in patriotism, valor, strength of will, duty, and loyalty to one’s shipmates. You, Miss K, are not worthy to serve with, those who put their lives on the line every day to protect our freedoms.*

Yet the irony is, that she and her ilk will wallow in their “rightness” and will be the “backbone” of our nation’s defenses in the future, while great leaders like Boss Greg McWherter are pushed out. Ridiculous! No, dangerous!

My son flew with Boss Greg McWherter. I am one parent who is very glad that CAPT McWherter was, and IS, the well-trained, skilled patriot and leader, exuding integrity and courage with every breath. I certainly forgive him for any of the minor transgressions that he allowed out of the sense that they were good for team morale. I trust his judgement. I respect his mission and vision.*

My son is alive and well after three years of thrilling the crowds with his courageous shipmates and a superb leader*
. . . and he will follow Boss McWherter anywhere. Who’s going to follow Miss K? Any volunteers?

Richard Simonsen
 
flyingriki said:
Is it more important to the US Navy that no one died under Boss McWherter’s four years in command (the Blue Angels pilot mortality rate since they started is 10%)? Or is it more important that a crew chief slipped a photo into the cockpit similar to ones that thousands of soldiers and sailors have probably pasted by their bunks?*
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Offhand, it's probably more important to the Navy that its officers follow orders. If the Navy says, "Don't do X" and the commander not only ignores that order but encourages the men under his command to do so, I don't know what other result one might expect.

Ron Wanttaja
 
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for what it is worth, LT Hultgreen's mishap SIR was illegally leaked to the press, and is available if you google it. I'd say that would probably be the most unbiased piece of reporting on the whole incident.
 
wanttaja said:
Offhand, it's probably more important to the Navy that its officers follow orders. If the Navy says, "Don't do X" and the commander not only ignores that order but encourages the men under his command to do so, I don't know what other result one might expect.

Ron Wanttaja
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Yeah this whole episode is quite predictable. I was shocked to hear the news not because of conduct but the fact that the commander let it go on as if nothing would happen.

Anyone who has served a day in today's military knows the outcome when this type of behavior goes on. Sexual harassment classes are never ending in the military and if you haven't seen a servicemember's career end because of it, well you just haven't been in long enough.

Boys will be boys but you have to be aware of your environment and modify your conduct depending on who's around you. What used to be acceptable and would be considered goofing around has now become a reportable offensive to others. Even if you have only one woman serving in a tight nit unit amoung men, there's no way you can pull this kind of stuff off and not get in trouble. I don't care how cool you might think the girl is and she's just one of the guys, she's not one of the guys and never will be.

Never forget your surroundings and never think that you're untouchable.
 
Some here may want to consider a new avatar. Here are a few that are available and appropriate:

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flyingriki said:
1.) Is it more important to the Navy that those who served and trained under Boss McWherter would follow him anywhere?

2.) ......If you don’t like the high octane life of fighter pilots...



3.) ....the sense that they were good for team morale. I trust his judgement. I respect his mission and vision.*
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Can't speak for the Navy but in the USAF....

1.) No one cares. Real leaders are rarely put in leadership positions, the yes men get the nod because while the guys who are respected we're earring that respect, the "future leaders" we're doing a master's program, being an exec or a congressional aide or otherwise busy pepper-grinding the establishment in order to get their career set. No time to earn respect - it's not needed anymore!

2.) No longer allowed! For some time we were just isolated from the mainstream and able to still act like fighter pilots (sorta); it was a "break glass in time of war" type thing, but that's now gone. If the USAF had to choose between rough around the collar guys who get the job done, kill every bad guy, fight like there no tomorrow and make bold decisions when required or a finely creased shirt with lots of ribbons who does great work at a cocktail party on the hill but used to fly a jet once upon a time and makes sure to ask his boss before he allows himself a bowel movement, the latter would get the job ~94% or the time. (Guesstimate in my 15 years of AD service)

3.) Also no longer important. Everyone being demotivated is much less important than one person having their feelings hurt. (It's a lot like kindergarden). Leaders are no longer trusted by the establishment - otherwise how would "trust but verify" have gained so much traction. It's disappointing to say the least.

I suspect there are similarities in the other services. Yes sometimes I'm a caveman - proud of it. Have we created anything that has changed the world on the same scale as when those crazy cave dwellers made fire? Sometimes you need those types of people.
 
35 AoA said:
for what it is worth, LT Hultgreen's mishap SIR was illegally leaked to the press, and is available if you google it. I'd say that would probably be the most unbiased piece of reporting on the whole incident.
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One of the interesting things in that report is that she had over 700 hrs in the A-6/EA-6 but only 10 traps when she was sent to the Tomcat.
 
Fearless Tower said:
One of the interesting things in that report is that she had over 700 hrs in the A-6/EA-6 but only 10 traps when she was sent to the Tomcat.
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Until her Tomcat transition she and all other female tactical jet Naval Aviators were only flying with shore-based squadrons.

Nauga,
who flew a few with a VAQ
 
Fearless Tower said:
One of the interesting things in that report is that she had over 700 hrs in the A-6/EA-6 but only 10 traps when she was sent to the Tomcat.
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Yep, she was assigned to VAQ-33. In her book I don't recall her ever being able to get any traps in that unit.

She didn't exactly have a smooth first assigment down there either. She rubbed a lot of people the wrong way because she almost looked at the assigment as a second class citizen flying the A-6. To me it seemed like she spent more time concentrating on moving out of that community instead of just being thankful for being a Naval Aviator and getting paid to fly a jet. She had a few incidents while there as well. She was accused of over stressing an A-6 while doing the break, almost crashed because of spatial D during a GCA into NZC and landed an A-6 with a broken main landing gear.

To me, it's clear that she died due to pilot error. As Nauga said, good pilots have commited the same type of error with TF-30s as well. Willow Grove air show comes to mind. Whether or not her error was one an average aviator with her hours would make, is debatable. Even the recovery from the engine stall is debatable. The follow on sim test showed only like one person being able to recover the aircraft in that configuration. However, you'll read other reports saying that they were given restrictions on how to recover???

Like I said, just too much conflicting information to form an opinion on Lt Hultgreen's competence.
 
nauga said:
Until her Tomcat transition she and all other female tactical jet Naval Aviators were only flying with shore-based squadrons.

Nauga,
who flew a few with a VAQ
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That makes sense. So it was kind of like how female SWOs back then were only billeted to auxiliary ships.
 
Velocity173 said:
She rubbed a lot of people the wrong way because she almost looked at the assigment as a second class citizen flying the A-6.
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A (male) VAQ-33 NFO once said to me, "We fly Whales here. That means somewhere, somehow, every one of us has ****ed somebody off." Remember, VAQ-33 flew EA-6A's (and A-3's, what the guy I quoted was referring to), not exactly the tip of the medium attack spear. I only knew a handful of female pilots back then but every one of them was banging on the door to get combat duty.

Velocity173 said:
Like I said, just too much conflicting information to form an opinion on Lt Hultgreen's competence.
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I agree with pretty much everything you've said but this part bears repeating. Both sides had an agenda and were ramming it down the throat of anyone who stopped to look.

Nauga,
a long way from Key West
 
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