Transitioning LA airspace from SNA?

GeorgeC

GeorgeC

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GeorgeC
Is there an easy way for the VFR pilot to transition the Los Angeles bravo from the south, e.g. from SNA to SBP?

Specifically, looking at the TAC, it looks like one could leave SNA, avoid the Disney TFR, north to EMT <3500, and then NW >5000.

Are there any idiosyncrasies that one should be familiar with before attempting such a flight?
 
In Florida, the Disney (World) TFR is irrelevant when one's receiving flight following...e.g. one will be cleared right through it. Or at least that's what ATC told me when I inquired, as my flight path would take me near the TFR. May or may not be similar out west.
 
There are many routes and I refuse to keep doing work for pilot who should know how to read a chart before flying in complex airspace . . .

There is no need to even worry about the Class Bravo if you know how to read a chart and no need to ask us if you know how to perform a search.

That all said - you can easily transition the approach paths to LAX at an appropriate altitude and turn northwest - and after turning NW why would you think that 5000 would be an appropriate altitude . ..
 
If you are comfortable talking with ATC, the most direct way is get yourself an LA TAC and pick one of the VFR transition routes.

If you don't want to do that, then the route you suggested will probably be your best bet.

If you have a good VFR GPS, or you are familiar with the area, you could cut it a little closer by overflying SLI and FUL then drop down to 1500-2000' passing southwest of the BUR Class C and south of VNY. That will get you som nice views of Hollywood Hills.


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comanchepilot said:
There are many routes and I refuse to keep doing work for pilot who should know how to read a chart before flying in complex airspace . . .

There is no need to even worry about the Class Bravo if you know how to read a chart and no need to ask us if you know how to perform a search.

That all said - you can easily transition the approach paths to LAX at an appropriate altitude and turn northwest - and after turning NW why would you think that 5000 would be an appropriate altitude . ..
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You're rather full of yourself. What is wrong with a guy who may not be familiar with the area asking on this board for advice from those who might know the local area better? Yes, you can safely navigate using the chart, but I see nothing wrong in his post.


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Fearless Tower said:
You're rather full of yourself. What is wrong with a guy who may not be familiar with the area asking on this board for advice from those who might know the local area better? Yes, you can safely navigate using the chart, but I see nothing wrong in his post.


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Well, for one thing, one must understand the TAC in order to successfully navigate the airspace. Among other things, that chart (and the FAR/AIM) says you have to have it in the aircraft for certain parts of the airspace. This is one of very few charts required explicitly by regulation.

Seriously, if one can't get the relevant information from the chart, it's a much better idea to dodge the airspace entirely. If you have questions in the air, that chart is your only guaranteed resource. You MAY get help from flight following, or they may be too busy. What do you do then? Complex airspace cannot always be predicted.

Example: I gave a San Francisco Bay tour last weekend. That works better with a clearance through KSFO Class B, but such a clearance may or may not be forthcoming. So, I have to be ready to replan instantly if KSFO or NorCal workload precludes my presence in Class B.
 
GeorgeC said:
Is there an easy way for the VFR pilot to transition the Los Angeles bravo from the south, e.g. from SNA to SBP?

Specifically, looking at the TAC, it looks like one could leave SNA, avoid the Disney TFR, north to EMT <3500, and then NW >5000.

Are there any idiosyncrasies that one should be familiar with before attempting such a flight?
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I have found the ATC crew in that area to be very professional, but like any busy professional they do not suffer fools well. Study the TAC and follow the VFR transition routes and you should have no issues.
 
Thanks to those who responded constructively. I am indeed unfamiliar with the area and was hoping to get the information that cannot be gleaned from the charts; that is, of the available flyways, transitions, and SFRA, in practice, are some better than others?

Aside from the marine layer, are there weather/terrain issues that one should be familiar with in a normally-aspirated piston single in this area? Does the San Gabriel range constitute mountain flying, and if so, would it behoove the low-time pilot to hug the coast instead?
 
Mountain flying means you push the limits of you or your aircraft. The highest peaks in the San Gabriels are the order of 8000 feet. This is on the TAC as well. Is that a problem for your aircraft? How about you? Can you navigate it accurately (hint: following the magenta line may or may not be the best idea)?

I wouldn't hesitate given adequate weather, but there is nothing within 2000 miles of DC with 8000 feet altitude. And the transitions are all discussed on the chart. You have one, right? Get ahold of it and THEN start asking questions about it.
 
Why is it that the california pilots always want to complain about people asking questions about their airspace and not answering questions, but the NYC'ers never seem to have problems answering the question.

Long story short, if you can deal with the SFRA in DC, SoCal is easy.
 
The San Gabriel's can get some turbulence. Depending on what you are flying, check and make sure the winds aloft are below 30 KTS in that area and climb up to give yourself a cushion (you can lose altitude quickly at times). Yes, these are real mountains.
 
I'm based at SNA. Getting through the Class B airspace is pretty simple.
The big challenge is getting to the higher altitudes required prior to entering the VFR routes. There is a low altitude corridor but you are not on flight following only a common frequency when transitioning this route.
Going from memory, I think the LAX route is 4500 and Hollywood park route is 6500. Check me on those but either way, its pretty hard for a normaly aspirated airplane to get to those altitudes before getting to the entry points when departing SNA.

The controllers vary and some nice some AHs. I have had both. Just know that you are not allowed into Class B without hearing the words: Cleared into Class Bravo airspace. If its marginal VFR and you find it difficult to maintain the transition route altitudes don't attempt it. The controllers have no patience for this and will make you pay.

Watch the Marine layer in So Cal. It is an ongoing factor in VFR flying. It will definitely play a roll in your scheduling. I'm looking at it as I write this.

I find the ipad w/foreflight to be invaluable when flying our airspace. It really helps to see your plane in relation to all the different airspaces.
And we have a bunch.

Good luck. PM me if you want additional info.

Andy
 
Ive flown directly over LAX using the special VFR corridor and it was pretty simple. Fly at 4,500 on the SMO 132 radial, squawk 1201, and listen on 128.55...dont have to talk to anyone.
 
The Hollywood Park transition is 8500 northbound. There are three other transitions plus the SFRA.

It may be tempting to ask the crowd, but a Class B violation is going to be your responsibility, not POAs. Use the chart; this forum is not doing you any favors. It is not authoritative information and anything you hear here might be wrong without any consequence to the provider.
 
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I fly into Hawthorne from time to time basically just as the OP proposes. Technically, since you'd be heading N.W. you may want to stay at 3,000 until you start climbing around EMT. Keep your eyes peeled around EMT for traffic.
 
KSCessnaDriver said:
Why is it that the california pilots always want to complain about people asking questions about their airspace and not answering questions, but the NYC'ers never seem to have problems answering the question.

Long story short, if you can deal with the SFRA in DC, SoCal is easy.
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I was wondering the same thing.

Yes, charts are essential. Read and understand. However, local knowledge and advise is always useful, as well. And I'm seeing some in the helpful posts.
 
KSCessnaDriver said:
Why is it that the california pilots always want to complain about people asking questions about their airspace and not answering questions, but the NYC'ers never seem to have problems answering the question.
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Easy! That's because, beneath our sour façades, us New Yorkers are sweetness and light inside, while the reverse is true of Californians :)

Seriously, though, I read both sides of the TAC before posting, which is where the >5000' flyway altitude came from.

The back story is that I have inlaws in southern California, so it occurred to me to use this as an opportunity to travel to foreign lands, meet interesting airplanes, and fly them.
 
Folks should at least be somewhat familiar with an area before they ask a question . ..

To get from SNA to SBP you can:

1. Depart downwind to Lake Irvine to 5500 to JOGIT PRADO then climb to 6500/8500 DARTS VNY RZS and up to SBP or

2. Hollywood Park transition LHS AVE and cut over from there

3. SFRA to SMO CMA RZS and up

4. IFR to lord knows what they'd give you [prob whatever the TEC is to SBA]

5. some combination of any of the above.

Which is why - not knowing what the OP is flying or what is purpose is other than getting to SBP - there are so many choices - I don't consider 8500 to be mountain flying - when I used to live back east and fly the NYC [JFK DIXIE CYN] corridor all the time I would want to be as high as I could easily get because you get above all the garbage weather, turbulence and similar down low and are on top of the indian traffic. . .

I kind of expect someone to do a little self help and a little work in complex airspace before asking an open ended question which was basically what do I do . . . there are so many choices in SoCal that whats the point . . . if you just want us to tell you what to do - then option 1. You won't get in anyones way and dont really have to learn anything.
 
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KSCessnaDriver said:
Why is it that the california pilots always want to complain about people asking questions about their airspace and not answering questions, but the NYC'ers never seem to have problems answering the question.

Long story short, if you can deal with the SFRA in DC, SoCal is easy.
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Californians are truly a helpful friendly bunch for the most part. As far as the San Gabriel's being mountains, I fly a fairly anemic normally aspirated Cherokee and have experienced rate of climb issues versus downdrafts going through there. I also have friends (more than one) who have experienced dramatic loses of altitude through there with even more capable planes. I suppose if you hop on up to FL 200, you probably won't have an issue. I live in Northern CA, so I know what a mountain looks like. I would say fly early (might be difficult with the marine layer) and check the winds aloft. If you are VFR and not used to dealing with the marine layer, my advise is to be extremely flexible on your departure time and you may even need to be flexible on the day.
 
comanchepilot said:
I kind of expect someone to do a little self help and a little work in complex airspace before asking an open ended question which was basically what do I do . . . there are so many choices in SoCal that whats the point . . . if you just want us to tell you what to do - then option 1. You won't get in anyones way and dont really have to learn anything.
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And that was my point. He did look at the TAC, saw that the airspace was obviously complex and even picked out a possible route and asked for opinions. His original post was not that of someone saying..."hey LA airspace is scary, can someone talk me through it"
 
KSCessnaDriver said:
Why is it that the california pilots always want to complain about people asking questions about their airspace and not answering questions, but the NYC'ers never seem to have problems answering the question.

Long story short, if you can deal with the SFRA in DC, SoCal is easy.
Click to expand...

Affirm. I never had any bad dealings with socal (or LA center for that matter). This includes flying Hornets around in formation VFR through various parts of LA's airspace and adjacent fields. They were always more than helpful. Don't get scared, they are "there to help" :) Of all the places in the US I have flown, I'd say Houston was actually the snippiest, controller/ATC wise in terms of VFR transiting. Haven't done much in DC or NY though, so I'd guess they are probably the most intense.
 
I also fly out of KSNA and just last weekend flew to Camarillo (KCMA) in a C172. It was very easy to transition the Bravo airspace via the LA Special Flight Rules transition. Depart KSNA and climb to 4500 - join the SMO VOR 132 radial - squak 1201. Fly at 3500' on the return.
 
Wound up flying a DA40 out of KSNA. East departure, picked up flight following. El Toro, Dana Point, Huntington Beach, and then back to KSNA. 0.9 on the Hobbs, and one happy father in law who hadn't flown in a GA plane in a few decades.
 
Nice.. Glad to here you safely navigated the airspace. Just reading this for the first time. and all I can say is WOW. A few Richards came out of the Woodwork.
 
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