Transition from Cessna to Mooney or Aero Commander

[121Dispatch]

Well, my wife and a few friends were planning to fly from Atlanta to Charleston, SC for a weekend in April. We were on the schedule for the 172RG well in advance, then I got a phone call from the flight school stating the aircraft needs to be used for a checkride on the day we want to depart. Part of the agreement with the school is that checkrides always take priority. They offered several other aircraft, but unfortunately, none of them offer the payload capacity that we require. Now I am looking at some other FBO's and have come across an M20J and an Aero Commander 112A.

I am wondering how difficult the transition is from the Cessna to these others. I really don't want to load an aircraft up with wife and friends after a basic checkout unless I feel completely comfortable in the aircraft (especially if we will encounter IMC conditions enroute). I understand the M20J will be a bit cramped, and it is a "slick" aircraft, so it's difficult to slow down in comparison to the 172RG...I assume staying several steps ahead of the aircraft is the biggest difference (other than the placement of the wings of course). I have heard very little about the Aero Commander though.

Anyways, I will toss the question out to you guys...What have you experienced with a transition between these types of aircraft, and is one easier to fly than the other? We also need about 1000 pounds of payload capability, and I haven't even looked at the numbers yet to see how close these planes come to providing that.

 

[tonycondon]

ive never flown a mooney or a commander 112. I am amazed that a 172RG, or M20, or 112 can carry 1000 pounds though.

 

[SCCutler]

I'd expect little difficulty with the transition, especially with the 112, the performance of which is similar to a 172RG. Roomy, soundly-constructed, just remember you have left / right, not "both" for tanks.

 

[Fast n' Furious]

Mooneys are not cramped. You'll have 44 inches of cabin width and a ton of leg room. The roofline is lower so you might have a bit less headroom but as you will get where you're going soooooooo much faster than the other spam cans you won't really notice. The seating position is also more like a sports car than a family sedan. The tail is also pointing the right way on the Mooney despite what brands C, P and B tell you.

 

[TMetzinger]

Two issues with transitioning to a Mooney that you'll need to be aware of:

They are slick airplanes, and you'll need to plan your deceleration more carefully than you would in a Cessna or Commander. Under no circumstances should you try and force a Mooney to land - they will float forever and wheelbarrowing on the nosewheel is almost always a precursor to a prop strike and/or a porpoise that can seriously damage your airplane. Figure on 10 hours of dual with a mooney-savvy CFI if you transition to one of the earlier (C-J) models. The bigger models will require more. Your insurance company will probably insist on it anyway.

As mentioned - the Mooney's are sports car-like airplanes. They have plenty of room, but you wear one, rather than sit in one. I am 6'3" and at one time was 255 Lbs, and the Mooney was still comfortable for me and my wife in the front seat. Legroom in the back can be limited for big adults in the short-body models if you have someone tall up front.

The Commander is a fine airplane, but unless you get the latest STC for a new big engine, you'll be flying an airplane about 20 knots slower than it looks. What you get is a big, wide, comfy cabin (one of the reasons it's slow), and a higher fuel burn.

Both are good IFR platforms and serious cross-country machines. For me the ideal piston single always comes down to a toss up between a 182 and a J model Mooney. If you need an SUV/Minivan, buy the 182. If you need a car, go with the Mooney.

 

[121Dispatch]

Thanks for the replies guys...I am going to check on rates this weekend, and see what works best for our needs. I really want to get some time in a Mooney, but if there is a significant price difference, or daily minimum, I may go with the 112.

 

[TMetzinger]

Oh, one other thing. You can find some mooneys with 1000 lbs of payload, but that will include fuel. Fortunately they are efficient so you don't need a lot of fuel - you can get 150 KTAS on 10-11 GPH in a J.

Commanders may have more useful load, but I don't think it's THAT much.

 

[rpadula]

Brian,

Don't know if you remember from our chance encounter at WDR, but I own a 112A.

As far as transition goes, I mostly flew 172's, both straight leg and RG, before buying and had no trouble. The 112 will trim nicely and it really is as easy as a 172 to fly. Only thing: don't flare it like a 172; no need to with that trailing link gear.

Your big concern on the 112 will be useful load. Mine is pretty decent for the fleet, and I just have 879 lbs. available. Some are lower than that.

Yes, it'll get slagged for being slow, but on your 200 nm trip, the difference will be about 20 minutes. Total fuel will be higher, but it's the same IO-360 as the Mooney, so 10-11 gph. And Spike got it wrong - there is a both setting on the fuel selector, but we usually use left or right.

-Rich

 

[Henning]

Mooneys are not cramped. The roofline is lower so you might have a bit less headroom but as you will get where you're going soooooooo much faster than the other spam cans you won't really notice.

That depends on how far you have to go. The 112 has longer legs, so even giving up some speed, if the trip is outside the Mooney range, the 112 gets there quicker on endurance. I took of in a 112 from LGB same time as my buddy left in his Mooney and we were headed for St. Louis (he was picking me up from a delivery). He needed an extra fuel stop and was in St. Louis half an hour behind me.

 

[SkyHog]

Mooneys (M20s at least) are very fast, but I can say that the "Fits like a sports car" theme is a bit.....well, its hogwash.

They're small inside. If you are not flying, but riding in the right seat, the only way to not have sore knees from being jammed up against the bottom of the panel is to rest your feet on the rudder pedals, which is fine if you know enough to not resist the movement from the PIC in the left seat.

The back seat is very, very tight, and sitting sideways is the only way for a 6ft, 235pound adult to sit without having crushed knees. Getting into/out of the Mooney is fairly easy, at least as easy and ingress/egress from a Cherokee, but I would think that emergency egress would be dang near impossible, as you'd have to find a way to pull your legs from most likely being crushed under the panel.

Changing the fuel tank requires the ability to bend at the waist with the yoke jammed in your chest to reach a valve that is located much too far forward. Its not impossible, but it sure ain't comfortable.

They eat a lot of runway on takeoff, and IME, climb much more slowly than Cherokees or 172s. I've had a Cherokee 180 up to 13,999ft in the summer, had a 172 up to 12,500 in the summer. Getting above 9500 feet is a feat in a Mooney in the mild Arizonian winters.

But they're super, super fast, and burn as much fuel as a Cherokee or 172, which is much, much slower. You aren't going to find a more efficient, certified airplane than a Mooney, that's for sure. And those that own them are crazy obsessed with how great they are, which means there must be some sort of Je ne sais quoi about them.

But for me? I'll take slower and more comfortable, or faster and less efficient if I actually had a choice about which plane I owned.

My experience on Mooneys comes from time in 2 different M20Cs. Most of that time was as a passenger, only about 5 hours total as PIC in the left seat (combined between the two).

 

[121Dispatch]

Brian,

Don't know if you remember from our chance encounter at WDR, but I own a 112A.

-Rich

Yep, I remember, and I was hoping you would weigh in on this thread. If not, I was going to PM you to get your thoughts. I guess The Flight School sold their 112, so that knocks that out of the picture. I was actually looking forward to getting checked out in it if the price was right. I'll be at the airport today, so I'll check around to see what some of the other places have to offer.

 

[Bill]

My experience on Mooneys comes from time in 2 different M20Cs. Most of that time was as a passenger, only about 5 hours total as PIC in the left seat (combined between the two).

The F, J, K mid-body planes will have a good bit more back seat room. The short bodies are really like 2+2 cars, the backseat is there, but more suited to kids or one adult sidesaddle.

 

[wsuffa]

Any of the RG aircraft will require a bit of transition. The low-wing vs high wing will be a pretty short transition (several landings to get the sink-rate and sight-picture right). With the Mooney's in particular, you need to nail the approach speed. The Commander is a bit more forgiving, but not a ton.

I had to do 10 hours transition from a 172/182/172RG to my Commander as a requirement of the insurance company. The transition itself was relatively easy, but gaining the experience to be competant under a wide range of conditions (especially stiff cross-winds) took a bit longer. The Commander has a rudder that's a bit less effective in stiff cross-winds.

 

[Ken Ibold]

Mooney J model is a fabulous airplane. I wish I still had mine, but then I'd have to sell a kid and, well, that gets messy, what with the clouded title and all. While there is room for 4 adults, the baggage space will get tight, so pack light.

Anyway, flying the Mooney is easy. Landing it requires a great deal of precision on airspeed control. Come in a little fast and you'll float forever. Force it on and you'll bounce, porpoise or strike the prop, depending on how hard you have to do it. A no-break rule: If you porpoise, go around no later than after bounce #2. It WILL strike the prop on the third bounce.

My only RG experience before I bought my Mooney was 5 hours in a 172RG. The transition was a non-event, really, and I was a 110-hour pilot at the time.

 

[Lance F]

M20J owner here.
First, I will stay out of the "Mooneys are cramped arguement." Please make your own decision on that point. However, the J mode in back is considerably better than the C model which Nick comments about.
Second, I doubt that the FBO will let you do 2 T&Gs with an instructor and turn the Mooney over to you for an IFR cross country. Almost certainly his insurance will require a lot more time.
Third, 1000# aint gonna happen, but if you pack right Atlanta to Charleston should be doable. With four adults (say at least 600#) and a weekends worth of luggage (say 100#), I must limit my fuel to about 2 1/2 hours with IFR reserves. (With me solo I'll go 6+ hours, no problem) See picture. That's what you can do with a J and a 2.5 hour flight.
Fourth, I don't think the transition will be too bad assuming you have an instructor that knows Mooneys well. The keys to success are: plan ahead and nail your approach speeds.
Have fun.

BTW, if you're in Atlanta, come on down to 9A1 and I'll fill you in a lot more about Mooneys

 

[Lance F]

Why did the smilie come uo on the thread title? Did I do something?

 

[Ken Ibold]

Third, 1000# aint gonna happen, but if you pack right Atlanta to Charleston should be doable. With four adults (say at least 600#) and a weekends worth of luggage (say 100#), I must limit my fuel to about 2 1/2 hours with IFR reserves.

I could tell a tale about a J owner taking himself and two other skydivers on a trip from the Northeast to Midwest, with the airplane full of gas and the cabin so full of bags the back seat passenger had a suitcase under her feet and still had to hold her rig on her lap the whole time, and said pilot reported a <200 fpm initial climb rate until some fuel burned off. But I won't.

 

[121Dispatch]

M20J owner here.
Third, 1000# aint gonna happen, but if you pack right Atlanta to Charleston should be doable. With four adults (say at least 600#) and a weekends worth of luggage (say 100#), I must limit my fuel to about 2 1/2 hours with IFR reserves. (With me solo I'll go 6+ hours, no problem) See picture. That's what you can do with a J and a 2.5 hour flight.

BTW, if you're in Atlanta, come on down to 9A1 and I'll fill you in a lot more about Mooneys

Thanks Lance...those numbers you mention are pretty much dead-on with our weights...of course I was basing the fuel requirement on the 172RG speeds/burns...without looking at the mooney numbers, I'd guess we could easily make CHS or JZI without a fuel stop.

I fly out of LZU, and have spent quite a bit of time at 9A1...next time I'm down there I'll check to see if your hangar is open...most western hangar is it?

 

[121Dispatch]

Anyway, flying the Mooney is easy. Landing it requires a great deal of precision on airspeed control. Come in a little fast and you'll float forever.

Force it on and you'll bounce, porpoise or strike the prop, depending on how hard you have to do it. A no-break rule: If you porpoise, go around no later than after bounce #2. It WILL strike the prop on the third bounce.

My only RG experience before I bought my Mooney was 5 hours in a 172RG. The transition was a non-event, really, and I was a 110-hour pilot at the time.

Thanks Ken. The trip will be within a couple weeks after my commercial checkride, so hopefully I'll still have the precision in place that I've been working on for the past couple months.

I've spoken with some of my friends who have flown Mooney's...the standard theme seems to be 'watch out for the prop strike.' The first time I fly a Mooney I'm going to end up flaring at 50' as I hear all those voices in my head warning me about the prop strike! (Dr Bruce, pretend you didn't hear me talking about voices in my head).

 

[gismo]

Thanks Ken. The trip will be within a couple weeks after my commercial checkride, so hopefully I'll still have the precision in place that I've been working on for the past couple months.

I've spoken with some of my friends who have flown Mooney's...the standard theme seems to be 'watch out for the prop strike.' The first time I fly a Mooney I'm going to end up flaring at 50' as I hear all those voices in my head warning me about the prop strike! (Dr Bruce, pretend you didn't hear me talking about voices in my head).

No need to fear the Mooney on landing (or flare early). Just hold the correct airspeed on final and don't let it land until the nose is pitched up a bit. I was able to transition to a M20J when I had about 150 TT and maybe 30-50 in a C177RG with nothing more than an hour of dual. Of course this was before the insurance companies ran the FBOs, but I really had no trouble and neither will you.

And it is a comfortable airplane. You do sit a lot more reclined than in any Cessna and the comment about the right seater needing to keep feet on the rudder pedals sounds familiar from my last time in the right seat of an M20J.

 

[Ken Ibold]

I've spoken with some of my friends who have flown Mooney's...the standard theme seems to be 'watch out for the prop strike.' The first time I fly a Mooney I'm going to end up flaring at 50' as I hear all those voices in my head warning me about the prop strike! (Dr Bruce, pretend you didn't hear me talking about voices in my head).

Lance is right. Don't fear the landing, just respect the final approach speed (I forget what that is now, it's been so long) and hold it to -0/+5 knots. Do that and you will be rewarded with a nice landing every time.

 

[Lance F]

I fly out of LZU, and have spent quite a bit of time at 9A1...next time I'm down there I'll check to see if your hangar is open...most western hangar is it?

Yep, that's the one. Come on by!

 

[ejensen]

They eat a lot of runway on takeoff, and IME, climb much more slowly than Cherokees or 172s. I've had a Cherokee 180 up to 13,999ft in the summer, had a 172 up to 12,500 in the summer. Getting above 9500 feet is a feat in a Mooney in the mild Arizonian winters.

Nick, this is just flat wrong. Something must have been wrong with that C. Were you at gross weight? Even so a C should easily out climb a 172. I have no trouble getting to 14 in the summer when a couple hundred undergross in my F. Been over 16 in the winter. The J goes even higher. I left TUS last summer at 113 and made it over Mt Lemmon direct (not by much ).

Like Lance I won't argue on the comfort of Moonies. Width does matter more than height. I'm 6'2"/190 and have no trouble.

 

[Michael]

Nick, this is just flat wrong. Something must have been wrong with that C. Were you at gross weight? Even so a C should easily out climb a 172.

I am afraid Nick is basing his opinion on my climb out. I climb shallow for heat and visibility reasons. Not too many FAA regulation sized trees out this way to watch out for.

 

[ejensen]

I am afraid Nick is basing his opinion on my climb out. I climb shallow for heat and visibility reasons. Not too many FAA regulation sized trees out this way to watch out for.

OK, yeah so do I. 120 mph usually keeps the max CHT below 380. Sure don't use Vx or Vy very often.

 

[Ed Guthrie]

That depends on how far you have to go. The 112 has longer legs, so even giving up some speed, if the trip is outside the Mooney range, the 112 gets there quicker on endurance.

You'll need to explain your logic.

Mooney M20J has 64 gallons useable; the 112 has at most the same or 68. Both are running Lycoming IO-360 engines. The Mooney cruises at ~155 kts; the 112 cruises at ~125--a full 30 kts slower.

IOW, how to you possibly figure the 112 has longer legs? Both will exhaust fuel at the same time, but the 112 will do so ~200 nm short of where the Mooney will land.

 

[Capt Kirk]

Two issues with transitioning to a Mooney that you'll need to be aware of:

They are slick airplanes, and you'll need to plan your deceleration more carefully than you would in a Cessna or Commander. Under no circumstances should you try and force a Mooney to land - they will float forever and wheelbarrowing on the nosewheel is almost always a precursor to a prop strike and/or a porpoise that can seriously damage your airplane. Figure on 10 hours of dual with a mooney-savvy CFI if you transition to one of the earlier (C-J) models. The bigger models will require more. Your insurance company will probably insist on it anyway.

Slick airplanes...agreed.

Don't try to force a Mooney to land...agreed.

10 hours of dual...maybe. It all depends on your attitude, overall experience and ability to fly the right speed from the time you start down, enter the pattern and until you turn off the run way.

Len

 

[flyingcheesehead]

I am wondering how difficult the transition is from the Cessna to these others.

Well, ask Ed Guthrie. I flew his M20J when I had about 150TT and most of my time was in 172's and Cherokees at that point. I *loved* it!!! Handled well, fun to fly, and was one of the most comfortable planes I've ever flown despite all the rumors to the contrary. As far as how easy it was to fly, well... Ed did let me land it on the tiny strip at Smoketown.

I understand the M20J will be a bit cramped,

Hogwash. 6'4" 285 lbs, and like I said.. One of the most comfortable 4-seaters I've been in. The whole "Mooneys are small thing" is more OWT than fact except maybe in the case of some very wide individuals. (I'm certainly nowhere near "skinny" )

 

[AirBaker]

Mooneys (M20s at least) are very fast, but I can say that the "Fits like a sports car" theme is a bit.....well, its hogwash.


My experience on Mooneys comes from time in 2 different M20Cs. Most of that time was as a passenger, only about 5 hours total as PIC in the left seat (combined between the two).

I kept waiting for someone to chime in on this.

 

[Capt Kirk]

I kept waiting for someone to chime in on this.

The short body Mooney aircraft M20C and M20E are really 2+2 aircraft when it comes to seating room.

I am about 5 feet 5 inches tall and put the left front seat of my M20C on the second notch from the front...my wife (similiar height) does the same for her right front seat. There is room enough for our kids in the back. I could probably sit in the back if similar sized folks were up front.

With a 6+ footer in the front seat the seat would be extended almost to the point where the back of the front seat touches the front of the rear seat. There would be no room for a full size person, perhaps not even a child.

Len

 

[Michael]

I kept waiting for someone to chime in on this.

I think its really going to depend on the plane you are transitioning from. 1 50 to a mooney, you will find it acceptable, a 177 or 182 to a mooney you may feel cramped at first, stick around for a while and you will notice how well it fits you. The only time i have an issue with two fat people up front, is when i need to raise or lower the gear (JBar model). Even then its not too bad, just shove the fat passengers shoulder away and do your business.

 

[ejensen]

The only time i have an issue with two fat people up front, is when i need to raise or lower the gear (JBar model). Even then its not too bad, just shove the fat passengers shoulder away and do your business.

And be careful not to undo their (or your) seatbelt. The Js recessed the arm rests so they feel wider than the older models.