Training in Experimental?

hopmedic

hopmedic

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I was talking with someone this weekend, and the question that came up is this: If a group were to start a flying club, and that club decided to build an RV-12, would they be able to do instruction in it?

I was under the impression that an experimental could be used for instruction, but not rented. If you're a member of a club, you're essentially an owner, not a renter, right? Wouldn't using the plane for instruction be like bringing my own airplane to the instructor so he could instruct me in it?

The person who said no is a CFI, but admits that he has not flown in years, so the rules may have changed, but the way he understands it is that an experimental cannot be used for instruction.

Can an experimental plane be used for instruction?
 
There have been a few Vans RV owners that were given clearance (but I don't know how or what paperwork was required) to give dual in their RV's, but it's my understanding that now the burden for doing so is not worth the effort.
 
airguy said:
There have been a few Vans RV owners that were given clearance (but I don't know how or what paperwork was required) to give dual in their RV's, but it's my understanding that now the burden for doing so is not worth the effort.
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that is for renting out their airplanes to provide transition training.

in general there is no prohibition that I know of on receiving instruction in an experimental aircraft that you own.
 
You may learn to fly in an experimental airplane. You may run into some resistance from an inspector or designated examiner's willingness to give a check ride (practical test) in the aircraft.

You'll also need to ensure you have an instructor who is competent, experienced, and familiar with your aircraft.
 
hopmedic said:
I was talking with someone this weekend, and the question that came up is this: If a group were to start a flying club, and that club decided to build an RV-12, would they be able to do instruction in it?

I was under the impression that an experimental could be used for instruction, but not rented. If you're a member of a club, you're essentially an owner, not a renter, right? Wouldn't using the plane for instruction be like bringing my own airplane to the instructor so he could instruct me in it?

The person who said no is a CFI, but admits that he has not flown in years, so the rules may have changed, but the way he understands it is that an experimental cannot be used for instruction.

Can an experimental plane be used for instruction?
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CFI's can instruct in E-AB aircraft but Exp. aircraft can not be used in a Commercial purpose.

what's a commercial purpose?
 
Tom-D said:
CFI's can instruct in E-AB aircraft but Exp. aircraft can not be used in a Commercial purpose.

what's a commercial purpose?
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Well, I would have guessed that would be in part 91, but a quick search says it's not....
 
hopmedic said:
Well, I would have guessed that would be in part 91, but a quick search says it's not....
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FAR 1.1

Commercial operator means a person who, for compensation or hire, engages in the carriage by aircraft in air commerce of persons or property, other than as an air carrier or foreign air carrier or under the authority of Part 375 of this title. Where it is doubtful that an operation is for “compensation or hire”, the test applied is whether the carriage by air is merely incidental to the person's other business or is, in itself, a major enterprise for profit.

As close as I can get.


The way I read that is, the CFI can't own the E-AB he is teaching in and charge you for the service.

IOWs he is using the E-AB to make money.

I don't see that in your situation.
 
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Ok... My search led me to 91.319, but that just leaves me with more questions... Of course, right? ;)

(c) Unless otherwise authorized by the Administrator in special operating limitations, no person may operate an aircraft that has an experimental certificate over a densely populated area or in a congested airway. The Administrator may issue special operating limitations for particular aircraft to permit takeoffs and landings to be conducted over a densely populated area or in a congested airway, in accordance with terms and conditions specified in the authorization in the interest of safety in air commerce.
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I know that no definition of densely populated exists, but I would think that Lawrenceville, GA, KLZU would be considered to be in a densely populated area, but there are E-AB aircraft there - at least a half a dozen that I personally know of. Am I missing something that makes it legal for them to fly?
(e) No person may operate an aircraft that is issued an experimental certificate under §21.191(i) of this chapter for compensation or hire, except a person may operate an aircraft issued an experimental certificate under §21.191(i)(1) for compensation or hire to—
(1) Tow a glider that is a light-sport aircraft or unpowered ultralight vehicle in accordance with §91.309; or
(2) Conduct flight training in an aircraft which that person provides prior to January 31, 2010.
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Tell me if I get this right - an experimental CAN be used to tow a glider (blah blah blah) for hire, and could have conducted training for hire until 1/31/2010, but now cannot conduct training in a plane that the instructor provides (obviously, this does not preclude an owner getting training in his own plane)?

It looks to me like, if I were a member of such a group, which owned an E-AB (or in this case E-LSA), I could "bring" the plane to the instructor, and he could be compensated for training me in it. Is this correct? Would that change if the instructor was also a member of the group, and thus a co-owner of the airplane?
 
hopmedic said:
I know that no definition of densely populated exists, but I would think that Lawrenceville, GA, KLZU would be considered to be in a densely populated area, but there are E-AB aircraft there - at least a half a dozen that I personally know of. Am I missing something that makes it legal for them to fly?
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THAT has been my big question, too. An RV-10 looks like a dandy airplane, and even a -9 might be sufficient. But if I can't fly to and from where I want/need to, it's not terribly useful.
 
DaleB said:
THAT has been my big question, too. An RV-10 looks like a dandy airplane, and even a -9 might be sufficient. But if I can't fly to and from where I want/need to, it's not terribly useful.
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We have a couple of 7's in our chapter that I know of, and I think someone is working on a 9 or a 10 if IIRC, plus there are two Zeniths (one is E-AB and one is E-LSA, if I remember right)......
 
I'm still trying to figure out what a congested airway is. The only one I've ever seen that fits that description is the Ripon to OSH transition and if you took all the experimentals out of it, it wouldn't be congested.

Actually, there is no LITERAL ban on instructors providing flight instruction in experimentals. The rules say you can't carry passengers for hire, but that doesn't describe flight instruction. If it did they'd have worded 91.409(b) differently. However, we're stuck with some boneheaded FAA officail misinterpretation of the literal regs.
 
that restriction will be removed when the time assigned is flown off.

then you can go anywhere
 
Tom-D said:
that restriction will be removed when the time assigned is flown off.

then you can go anywhere
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Oh, so only during the prescribed test period (not sure that's what they call it), the 40 or whatever hours (I've heard it varies), it's not allowed over congested areas? Ok - that makes sense. I don't know if everyone does, but I do know that one pilot here moved his plane to another airport for his first 40 hours.

And yes, I do realize that the first 40 hours could not be instruction because it can only carry the pilot. :wink2:
 
hopmedic said:
Oh, so only during the prescribed test period (not sure that's what they call it), the 40 or whatever hours (I've heard it varies), it's not allowed over congested areas? Ok - that makes sense. I don't know if everyone does, but I do know that one pilot here moved his plane to another airport for his first 40 hours.

And yes, I do realize that the first 40 hours could not be instruction because it can only carry the pilot. :wink2:
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The FAA will assign a testing area. when testing is complete, you will get the airworthiness certificate and a letter of limitation that does not have that restriction, then you fly it pretty much as any other aircraft, with a non commercial usage restriction given in the FARs.
 
Tom-D said:
The FAA will assign a testing area. when testing is complete, you will get the airworthiness certificate and a letter of limitation that does not have that restriction, then you fly it pretty much as any other aircraft, with a non commercial usage restriction given in the FARs.
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Gotcha! Thanks!
 
Back to one of my prior questions - I have learned that it is ok to compensate a CFI in an experimental if he is not the owner/provider of the plane (i.e. I am member of a club that has an E-LSA), but what if that CFI is also a member of the club, thereby making him a part owner of the plane as well? Is it still legal to compensate him?
 
Tom-D said:
The FAA will assign a testing area. when testing is complete, you will get the airworthiness certificate and a letter of limitation that does not have that restriction, then you fly it pretty much as any other aircraft, with a non commercial usage restriction given in the FARs.
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Ah, so. Now that -7A is looking even better for "some day". I just figured out what it would cost to drop in a glass cockpit, 2-axis autopilot, backup steam 6-pack, nice stereo intercom, a few other goodies. Not too shabby at all.
 
hopmedic said:
Back to one of my prior questions - I have learned that it is ok to compensate a CFI in an experimental if he is not the owner/provider of the plane (i.e. I am member of a club that has an E-LSA), but what if that CFI is also a member of the club, thereby making him a part owner of the plane as well? Is it still legal to compensate him?
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He/she/it is getting paid for their time as an instructor, not for the use of the aircraft.
 
Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe said:
He/she/it is getting paid for their time as an instructor, not for the use of the aircraft.
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in the case where the student and the CFI are members of the same club that owns the E-AB aircraft, you best make it very clear who is providing the aircraft.

the student must pay all the rental fees and other charges, and have record to prove that.

Because if the CFI provides the aircraft we have other issues.
 
Tom-D said:
in the case where the student and the CFI are members of the same club that owns the E-AB aircraft, you best make it very clear who is providing the aircraft.

the student must pay all the rental fees and other charges, and have record to prove that.

Because if the CFI provides the aircraft we have other issues.
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Gotcha - thanks!
 
hopmedic said:
It looks to me like, if I were a member of such a group, which owned an E-AB (or in this case E-LSA), I could "bring" the plane to the instructor, and he could be compensated for training me in it. Is this correct?
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Correct.

Would that change if the instructor was also a member of the group, and thus a co-owner of the airplane?
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If the instructor is actually a "co-owner" of the plane, then yes, it would change. However, clubs are rarely formed as "co-ownership" operations. The fact that the instructor is a member of the club should not in and of itself create a problem, depending on the club's structure. Because this is not a clear area, you might want to discuss it with your FAA Regional Counsel before doing it.
 
flyingron said:
I'm still trying to figure out what a congested airway is. The only one I've ever seen that fits that description is the Ripon to OSH transition and if you took all the experimentals out of it, it wouldn't be congested.

.
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:thumbsup::thumbsup:...... Very good point..:idea::yesnod:
 
Ron Levy said:
Correct.

If the instructor is actually a "co-owner" of the plane, then yes, it would change. However, clubs are rarely formed as "co-ownership" operations. The fact that the instructor is a member of the club should not in and of itself create a problem, depending on the club's structure. Because this is not a clear area, you might want to discuss it with your FAA Regional Counsel before doing it.
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Wouldn't it simply depend upon what the aircraft registration say's in the "Owner" block?
 
Tom-D said:
Wouldn't it simply depend upon what the aircraft registration say's in the "Owner" block?
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No, it would not be that simple. Not all clubs involve equity, but if there is any ownership stake to the individual members, and the CFI is an owner to any extent via that membership, you need to get the FAA Regional Counsel to give a reading on your plan before you execute it. And the name in the "Owner" block doesn't by itself resolve that issue.
 
Ron Levy said:
No, it would not be that simple. Not all clubs involve equity, but if there is any ownership stake to the individual members, and the CFI is an owner to any extent via that membership, you need to get the FAA Regional Counsel to give a reading on your plan before you execute it. And the name in the "Owner" block doesn't by itself resolve that issue.
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If it belongs to the club the club's name will be on the registration.

If it is co-owned the CFI's name better not be any of the names written there.

seems simple enough.
 
Ron Levy said:
Fine, but who owns the club?
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Why would it matter to the FAA agent on the ramp, doing the ramp check?

Unless you really did some thing to make them investigate farther he's going to hand you back your certificates, have you replace the registration and walk away.

But if they see "Joe The CFI" on the registration and he is holding the certificate of "Joe the CFI", they are going to say WTF. and start the 20 questions about a commercial operations.

So it all starts with the registration we have a problem there? or we don't have a problem at all.
 
Ron Levy said:
Time for another fishing trip, Tom. See you when you get back.
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As a matter of fact, we were thinking about going to Ross Lake,

But I see no problem using common sense in teaching in a E-AB aircraft.

when block 1, square 1, passes the sniff test there won't be any problems.

I believe the rule is very clear, be legal in both rules and you are good to go.

you are allowed to receive training in a E-AB and there is no Commercial operations.

Pretty simple to me.
 
tonycondon said:
that is for renting out their airplanes to provide transition training.

in general there is no prohibition that I know of on receiving instruction in an experimental aircraft that you own.
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None. Build it and train in it.
 
You can't rent out an E-AB or E-LSA for training, you must be the owner. Put the plane in a LLC, each member buys stock in the LLC and go train in it
 
Dean said:
You can't rent out an E-AB or E-LSA for training, you must be the owner. Put the plane in a LLC, each member buys stock in the LLC and go train in it
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I know that's not a problem for the owners to get training from a third party instructor, but I'm not sure that's legal if the instructor is one of the stockholders. As I said earlier, I'd ask the RC before putting any money into such a plan.
 
DouglasBader said:
http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org...interpretations/data/interps/2010/Simmons.pdf

http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org...nterpretations/data/interps/2009/Anderson.pdf

http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org...retations/data/interps/2006/Wilson-Interp.pdf
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None of those say squat about congested airways. They're discussing the reference of being OVER a congested AREA in 91.119. In this case the area is the ground.
There's no indication anywhere as to what a IN congested AIRWAY is.
 
Ron Levy said:
I know that's not a problem for the owners to get training from a third party instructor, but I'm not sure that's legal if the instructor is one of the stockholders. As I said earlier, I'd ask the RC before putting any money into such a plan.
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Then how does this work??
 
Ron Levy said:
I have no idea, unless he falls under that special exemption the FAA gave Van's for some factory-built planes.
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He is on his own waver, the FAA thinks of it as a safety thing getting pilot owners a check out prior to them jumping in their own RV and crashing.

There are a couple Canard types that do it too.
 
Tom-D said:
He is on his own waver, the FAA thinks of it as a safety thing getting pilot owners a check out prior to them jumping in their own RV and crashing.

There are a couple Canard types that do it too.
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Yep,

In general the FAA is not out to get you. Talk to them before committing, I'm sure you can find someone happy to help you out.
 
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