Training for PPL, having trouble looking for advice.

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greetings
I am working on my PPL, two months and 12 hours or so in, and I feel like I'll never master stalls. I am almost to the point of giving up I am so frustrated with them. Power off stalls are looking pretty good but I always screw up power on stalls. I'm having a hard time holding a heading in the power on stall. My instructor said I almost put us in a spin the last time we did one. Everytime I do one the plane yaws and rolls to the right. We're going to work on them again next week but I'm so nervous about it and screwing them up again that I don't know how I can enjoy the flight, I'm already dreading it to be honest.

I keep telling myself that GA and flying isn't about going out and doing stalls every flight. If I can just master them we can move on and keep my eye on the big picture I'll get there.

But then I started thinking about all the other stalls that I haven't even touched yet, cross controlled, turning, accelerated, etc and I just find myself thinking I cant even do power on stalls there is no way I can do the other ones.

I guess what I'm asking is, is it normal hitting a wall in my training and feeling overwhelmed before I'm even doing landings on my own? Am I not cut out for this? I want this and I try to keep my eye on the big picture but if I'm not cut out for this I'd rather cut my losses now rather than $5k and 15 lessons down the line.

Thanks for any input.
 
greetings said:
I am working on my PPL, two months and 12 hours or so in, and I feel like I'll never master stalls. I am almost to the point of giving up I am so frustrated with them. Power off stalls are looking pretty good but I always screw up power on stalls. I'm having a hard time holding a heading in the power on stall. My instructor said I almost put us in a spin the last time we did one. Everytime I do one the plane yaws and rolls to the right. We're going to work on them again next week but I'm so nervous about it and screwing them up again that I don't know how I can enjoy the flight, I'm already dreading it to be honest.

I keep telling myself that GA and flying isn't about going out and doing stalls every flight. If I can just master them we can move on and keep my eye on the big picture I'll get there.

But then I started thinking about all the other stalls that I haven't even touched yet, cross controlled, turning, accelerated, etc and I just find myself thinking I cant even do power on stalls there is no way I can do the other ones.

I guess what I'm asking is, is it normal hitting a wall in my training and feeling overwhelmed before I'm even doing landings on my own? Am I not cut out for this? I want this and I try to keep my eye on the big picture but if I'm not cut out for this I'd rather cut my losses now rather than $5k and 15 lessons down the line.

Thanks for any input.
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I think many many pilots run into trouble during initial training. I wouldn't give up on a dream because of temporary difficulties.

http://lisakovanda.com/content/modified-flight-plan
 
You'll get past it.

Stalls are scary in the beginning, but with practice they become a big pussycat. Just stick with it, maybe get some time with an instructor that's not afraid of a spin and know that you're not going to kill yourself in a stall at 3000'.
 
tell your instructor you want to put a hold on the power-on stalls and do some falling leaf maneuvers instead. Get comfortable with the plane bobbing and weaving. Cross your arms and only use your feet.
 
I think most people have a point they aren't sure they will get it all down or can, it will just click one day. In a year you will laugh about it. There is probably at last one thing everybody had trouble with at one time or another while training and later. Go do something else for a couple lessons and then it might be fun to try to hang it from the prop later.
 
You've been at the controls of an aircraft for 12 hours. Imagine a teenager (or yourself at that age) after they've been behind the wheel for only 12 hours. How fine-tuned are driving skills with 12 hours of experience?

Now add a third dimension to navigate, the need to keep the roll in check, the need to keep the pitch in check, in a machine that's got many more buttons and dials, with invisible boundaries that you can get in serious trouble for crossing, where people speak a special language and a mechanical failure that's an inconvenience on the ground can be a major emergency.

Yea, you might be a little out of your element right now. Hang in there, relax, it will happen.
 
bqmassey said:
...in a machine that's got many more buttons and dials...
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maybe that's part of the problem. Buttons and dials are not important. Eyes outside, feet on pedals. Once those two things are mastered, add some more stuff, but buttons and dials are pretty far down the list.
 
JHW said:
maybe that's part of the problem. Buttons and dials are not important. Eyes outside, feet on pedals. Once those two things are mastered, add some more stuff, but buttons and dials are pretty far down the list.
Click to expand...

you're missing the point.
 
Go take some spin training in an aircraft built for it. The first one will scare you and the rest are fun. You will learn what it feels like just befor the stall and how to correct a spin. Then routine stalls will be easy. Dont be afraid of stalls at altitude they will great traing to keep you out of trouble when low to the ground. I personally have learned to enjoy them. The thing that almost caused me to quit training was learning to land . I tried and tried and kept getting worse. And then I asked my instructor to go to a 5000 foot strip instead of his grass strip. He felt it was a waste of time but was willing if I wanted to go. 3 landings later something clicked !. I still do not know what it was. Maybe I learned that I had a left and right foot instead of two left feet. It is early in the game for you, give yourself time and try to relax and enjoy it. You WILL get there. I bet you fell off your bike when you were young like the rest of us, and got right back on until you succeded. Same goes for airplanes. GET on that horse and ride !!!!!
 
We all have trouble with something (generally before solo), sometimes several things...

Work on the stalls, if you have had a few lessons and still don't "get it", ask your cfi if you can move to something else and come back..

Other than that, i would suggest that another 8-10 hours (not of just doing stalls) and you will wonder what the big deal was..

Or your CFI may suck, that is a possibility as well. But don't give up on what you want to do, just because you hit the first hurdle..

"You almost put us in a spin", isn't the proper way to say "keep it coordinated through the whole manevuer".....

He might as well have yell "oh my god we are all going to die"..
 
Oh. And Power on stalls tend to break a little more than power off ones, but there is less to do to Fix the stall (cordinate it and push on the yoke)...

Is he asking you to hold a heading at this point, or just asking you to keep it coordinated?

I always found power-off to me much easier, even though you have to remember to push the throttle in... Less torque from the engine messing up everything
 
Power on stalls always scared me during training and were by far my least favorite maneuver to practice. The pitch up angle required to actually stall the plane seemed so severe that I always felt uncomfortable. My point is, everyone has the one part of training that gets them but you have to work through it.

I learned the technique to recover from the stall ad just got through it. When it came to the check ride I still disliked the power in stall but knew I needed to get through it, so I sucked it up and did. I'm sure you are capable of doing the same.

I'd ask your CFI to explain why the plane keeps yawing or rolling to the right as you said. Maybe that will help you understand what is going wrong. Also, I agree with those saying to make sure you are looking outside the plane during the stall. If you are staring at the panel in front of you focused in holding the heading, my guess is the recovery would be much harder.
 
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Old Geek said:
You'll get past it.

Stalls are scary in the beginning, but with practice they become a big pussycat. Just stick with it, maybe get some time with an instructor that's not afraid of a spin and know that you're not going to kill yourself in a stall at 3000'.
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+1 I agree with Old Geek !
 
Go do something else for a while then come back to the stalls.

Practicing crosswind landings will teach you how to use your feet and hands together - skills needed for a proper stall.

Power-on stalls scared the crap out of me at first, so much adrenaline I was literally shaking. We revisited them about 1/2 way through my training (post solo) and I wondered what the big deal was. The key for me was learning to use my feet and not being afraid to use as much rudder as required to stay coordinated (it's a lot more than you think). In the 172 I trained it the plane loved to drop the left wing and right before the stall it would yaw pretty hard if I wasn't ready with my feet. Took a few lessons but it eventually clicked.

Keep at it!!

Edit:
As for not dying, there's a video of Jessie (I believe) in a 172 holding opposite rudder and aileron. No spin, no fireworks. Just repeated benign stalls. Might be worth watching to boost your confidence that you're not going to kill youself. Anyone have that link?
 
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On the bright side, this is stuff you usually do when you get close to solo (at least it was for me!) so get your game face on, ask questions, enjoy the flying and enjoy every minute of it!
 
I think most people hit a "wall" at some point in their training. It's part of learning. You're not unique in this respect.

I will say this: it's partially on the CFI to instill some confidence in you. If you're scared to do them, there's a chance he/she might be part of the problem. However you also need to do what you can to give yourself some confidence. I had a similar experience the first time I tried to do a power-on stall. I didn't get enough rudder in to counteract the dropped wing and my instructor had to step in to pick it up. He said "That was the beginning of a spin." I was freaked, and psyched myself out the rest of the lesson. I'm sure he said something to try and get me back on track but I don't remember anything else. I just wanted to get back on the ground. Next lesson I was determined to get it right, and I did. But I made sure to ask my instructor lots of questions and educate myself beforehand to get some confidence back. And I second what others have said. You're not 120 hours in and still having trouble with stalls. You've been flying for 12 hours. You'll be fine. Just stick with it and give it some time.
 
Hi Greetings.

My advice, for whatever it's worth. When doing the power-on stalls, look out the front windscreen (may have to look close to the edge) and be sure you are going straight. Use your feet on the rudders to keep the airplane going straight. If the nose gets so high you cannot see out the front, you can look to your left and just be sure the wing is not moving backwards along the horizon. Keep using your feet, not your hands (i.e. no aileron--keep the ailerons neutral). If a wing starts to drop, use rudder to pick it up. Sometimes, it is very hard to get an airplane to do a power-on stall. Don't give up. Tell you CFI about your issue and let him/her help you through it. Stay at or above 3,000 msl.
 
Definitely ask your instructor to move on to other things and come back to stalls later. S/he gets to choose between losing a student and being flexible.

Bob Gardner
 
Power on stalls are more nerve wracking than power off ones. You have the noise and vigration from the engine, and the uncomfortable pitch angle. You have to pull back hard, so you tend to strain, which results in unintended twisting of the yoke as well as overcorrecting, all the while the plane is mushing, and pretty sloppy in its response to control inputs. Just give yourself permission to be nervous, and give your self permission to keep trying and not getting it exactly right. If it takes you 20 times instead of 10, so be it. You will eventually get more comfortable with more exposure. Just try to stay with it, and eventually it will come. You might just take a glance down to see if you really are pulling straight back on the yoke. I know that was an issue I had.
 
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Do something else and come back to the stalls. Make sure to have your CFI demonstrate AND verbalize everything as a maneuver is performed, with your hands and feet on the controls, multiple times, as needed.
 
Most of the time folks have this problem, it's because they are looking inside and don't catch the early cues that the airplane is starting to yaw left or right. If you keep your eyes outside, and watch the clouds and ground for any sign of the nose starting to swing left or right, and use your feet on the rudders to keep the nose from moving, that wing drop issue should go away and you'll be a better pilot for it, too.
 
My problem with power on stalls is that I really didn't want to pitch the nose up far enough to make it stall. The sight picture looks totally wrong.

If you're rolling and yawing to the RIGHT, you're overcorrecting. The trick is calming down (yeah, I know, easier said than done) and making much smaller inputs.

If your nerves will handle it, I'd suggest stalling it with NO rudder and then correcting the dipped wing with the rudder alone. That's not an intentional spin; a 172 or Warrior won't spin that easily; they actually move fairly slowly in this regime, so you can take your time correcting it. Some falling leaf practice would be helpful here as well (as was suggested earlier). Once you get that down, try coordinating it correctly. If your instructor is nervous about that, use another instructor (if just for this exercise).

Maybe that bears some repeating. Try another instructor for one lesson. The different perspective can sometimes make a massive, even instant, difference.

To a large extent, 172s and especially Warriors will recover themselves if you let go of everything. You only need to fine tune that.

And has been said before, just about everyone gets stuck at something during training. You WILL get past it.

Edit: Capn Ron has a really good point. Eyes outside. That applies to lots of other maneuvers as well. Like steep turns.
 
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Ron Levy said:
Most of the time folks have this problem, it's because they are looking inside and don't catch the early cues that the airplane is starting to yaw left or right. If you keep your eyes outside, and watch the clouds and ground for any sign of the nose starting to swing left or right, and use your feet on the rudders to keep the nose from moving, that wing drop issue should go away and you'll be a better pilot for it, too.
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This is how I was taught. Made a world of difference, including during initial climb out after takeoff! Use those clouds:wink2:
 
greetings said:
....My instructor said I almost put us in a spin the last time we did one....
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Keep the ball in the center and you won't spin but aside from that tell your instructor that you want to do spins because you don't want to have some bug-a-boo monster lurking in a closet that scares the bejezus out of you and you don't even really know what it is.
 
Are you flying at hub city aviation? Which instructor are you using? Just curious.... Bart the big guy flies a Pitts at competitions.. He can take you up and help you feel less scared.

Heck, I could come up sometime and help you out for that matter. What are you flying - a 172?

Take a break from it and then when you start again just approximate it looking at the wing, feel the edge of it and recover before the break. Ease the yoke back, release it over and over till you know where the edge is. Then do it to the break and as it goes neutralize the rudder you're holding and it probably won't break to the right so badly. Sounds like your instructor might be a little worried about spins... Might not, don't know and really shouldn't judge from just what we read.

Hitting a wall on a maneuver or two is to be expected. Learning plateaus are normal. Like folks said, take a break, practice landing and the other pre solo stuff and came back to it later.
 
Old Geek said:
You'll get past it.

Stalls are scary in the beginning, but with practice they become a big pussycat. Just stick with it, maybe get some time with an instructor that's not afraid of a spin and know that you're not going to kill yourself in a stall at 3000'.
Click to expand...
He's said a couple of time he's not scared of stalls and that day I didn't take it as he was scared really. I took it as "hey dumbass, you almost spinned the aircraft". I guess thats what has me so worked up over doing them again. Its not an easy feeling doing them to begin with and to add to it I'm not doing them right and feeling belittled by the CFI because of it.

JHW said:
tell your instructor you want to put a hold on the power-on stalls and do some falling leaf maneuvers instead. Get comfortable with the plane bobbing and weaving. Cross your arms and only use your feet.
Click to expand...
I will talk to the CFI about them next week. Not very many videos on the net about falling leaf maneuvers.

bqmassey said:
You've been at the controls of an aircraft for 12 hours. Imagine a teenager (or yourself at that age) after they've been behind the wheel for only 12 hours. How fine-tuned are driving skills with 12 hours of experience?

Now add a third dimension to navigate, the need to keep the roll in check, the need to keep the pitch in check, in a machine that's got many more buttons and dials, with invisible boundaries that you can get in serious trouble for crossing, where people speak a special language and a mechanical failure that's an inconvenience on the ground can be a major emergency.

Yea, you might be a little out of your element right now. Hang in there, relax, it will happen.
Click to expand...
Great way to think about it, thank you. This is my first post here and I really appreciate the vote of confidence.

ja_user said:
We all have trouble with something (generally before solo), sometimes several things...

Work on the stalls, if you have had a few lessons and still don't "get it", ask your cfi if you can move to something else and come back..

Other than that, i would suggest that another 8-10 hours (not of just doing stalls) and you will wonder what the big deal was..

Or your CFI may suck, that is a possibility as well. But don't give up on what you want to do, just because you hit the first hurdle..

"You almost put us in a spin", isn't the proper way to say "keep it coordinated through the whole manevuer".....

He might as well have yell "oh my god we are all going to die"..
Click to expand...

We've done some ground reference maneuvers since the last stalls. I like the ground refs and am doing good with them. But at the last debrief he said to be prepared to go over stalls again and my stomach turned inside out just thinking about them. I really don't think he's scared of getting into a spin, it just left me feeling like a complete idiot.
 
greetings said:
He's said a couple of time he's not scared of stalls and that day I didn't take it as he was scared really. I took it as "hey dumbass, you almost spinned the aircraft". I guess thats what has me so worked up over doing them again. Its not an easy feeling doing them to begin with and to add to it I'm not doing them right and feeling belittled by the CFI because of it.


I will talk to the CFI about them next week. Not very many videos on the net about falling leaf maneuvers.


Great way to think about it, thank you. This is my first post here and I really appreciate the vote of confidence.



We've done some ground reference maneuvers since the last stalls. I like the ground refs and am doing good with them. But at the last debrief he said to be prepared to go over stalls again and my stomach turned inside out just thinking about them. I really don't think he's scared of getting into a spin, it just left me feeling like a complete idiot.
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Since when are students not allowed to be complete idiots? You are a STUDENT! Give yourself a break sheesh.

:popcorn:
 
ja_user said:
Oh. And Power on stalls tend to break a little more than power off ones, but there is less to do to Fix the stall (cordinate it and push on the yoke)...

Is he asking you to hold a heading at this point, or just asking you to keep it coordinated?

I always found power-off to me much easier, even though you have to remember to push the throttle in... Less torque from the engine messing up everything
Click to expand...

He does bring up the heading before the maneuver and when I screw it up.

jspilot said:
Power on stalls always scared me during training and were by far my least favorite maneuver to practice. The pitch up angle required to actually stall the plane seemed so severe that I always felt uncomfortable. My point is, everyone has the one part of training that gets them but you have to work through it.

I learned the technique to recover from the stall ad just got through it. When it came to the check ride I still disliked the power in stall but knew I needed to get through it, so I sucked it up and did. I'm sure you are capable of doing the same.

I'd ask your CFI to explain why the plane keeps yawing or rolling to the right as you said. Maybe that will help you understand what is going wrong. Also, I agree with those saying to make sure you are looking outside the plane during the stall. If you are staring at the panel in front of you focused in holding the heading, my guess is the recovery would be much harder.
Click to expand...

The pitch up angle does make me uncomfortable. I will follow your advice and learn the maneuver and get through it.

somorris said:
Hi Greetings.

My advice, for whatever it's worth. When doing the power-on stalls, look out the front windscreen (may have to look close to the edge) and be sure you are going straight. Use your feet on the rudders to keep the airplane going straight. If the nose gets so high you cannot see out the front, you can look to your left and just be sure the wing is not moving backwards along the horizon. Keep using your feet, not your hands (i.e. no aileron--keep the ailerons neutral). If a wing starts to drop, use rudder to pick it up. Sometimes, it is very hard to get an airplane to do a power-on stall. Don't give up. Tell you CFI about your issue and let him/her help you through it. Stay at or above 3,000 msl.
Click to expand...

This may sound like a dumb question, and I'm sure it is, but in a power on stall lets say one of the wings starts to drop: Which rudder input will correct this? Same rudder as the wing that is dropping or opposite? Thank you.

MAKG1 said:
My problem with power on stalls is that I really didn't want to pitch the nose up far enough to make it stall. The sight picture looks totally wrong.

If you're rolling and yawing to the RIGHT, you're overcorrecting. The trick is calming down (yeah, I know, easier said than done) and making much smaller inputs.

If your nerves will handle it, I'd suggest stalling it with NO rudder and then correcting the dipped wing with the rudder alone. That's not an intentional spin; a 172 or Warrior won't spin that easily; they actually move fairly slowly in this regime, so you can take your time correcting it. Some falling leaf practice would be helpful here as well (as was suggested earlier). Once you get that down, try coordinating it correctly. If your instructor is nervous about that, use another instructor (if just for this exercise).

Maybe that bears some repeating. Try another instructor for one lesson. The different perspective can sometimes make a massive, even instant, difference.

To a large extent, 172s and especially Warriors will recover themselves if you let go of everything. You only need to fine tune that.

And has been said before, just about everyone gets stuck at something during training. You WILL get past it.

Edit: Capn Ron has a really good point. Eyes outside. That applies to lots of other maneuvers as well. Like steep turns.
Click to expand...

This sounds like some great advice, thank you.

Jeanie said:
Are you flying at hub city aviation? Which instructor are you using? Just curious.... Bart the big guy flies a Pitts at competitions.. He can take you up and help you feel less scared.

Heck, I could come up sometime and help you out for that matter. What are you flying - a 172?

Take a break from it and then when you start again just approximate it looking at the wing, feel the edge of it and recover before the break. Ease the yoke back, release it over and over till you know where the edge is. Then do it to the break and as it goes neutralize the rudder you're holding and it probably won't break to the right so badly. Sounds like your instructor might be a little worried about spins... Might not, don't know and really shouldn't judge from just what we read.

Hitting a wall on a maneuver or two is to be expected. Learning plateaus are normal. Like folks said, take a break, practice landing and the other pre solo stuff and came back to it later.
Click to expand...

I am at Hub City Aviation. I'll send you a PM.




I just want to say thank you to everyone that replied to my thread so far. I've been lurking here for sometime, even before creating my account. This seems like a great community of likeminded people with a true love for aviation. Glad to be a part of it.
 
At 12 hours, don't worry about not getting things down. You'll get it. I also had trouble with power-on stalls. The big thing to remember is that ailerons are basically neutral, with corrections occurring with rudder.

One piece of advice (which I think was mentioned already) was to go on a flight with another CFI. Doing so doesn't mean that your original CFI isn't doing a good job. Sometimes it takes another way of explaining things to get through a hurdle in your training.

Something else to possibly start is to record your lessons (GoPro, etc) if you aren't already. Between hearing your CFI's commentary and watching what you've been doing it will help the material sink in between lessons. For me, it was a very helpful thing that I wish I would have done much sooner.

Keep at it and hang in there! ;)
 
Add this to your list- the one hint I got from an instructor that really made a big difference when I was learning to do power-on stalls and recoveries:
"Put your feet on the horizon."
If you visualize it that way, it helps with more than just the pitch angle. At least it does for me.

Whatever you do, don't be discouraged. It's no more complicated or tricky than any other maneuver. 12 hours, you say? Here's an excerpt from my flight journal, when I passed the 10-hour mark. It took a while to do them consistently- I went on to do a few sloppy ones for sure- but I got the general idea the first time. Note the comment about the rudder. :D

My first power-on, or departure stall, is on today's syllabus- it takes a lot of pitch to get a stall going with full power and no flaps, and I let 86S climb too much. But the break and recovery go well. I discover that it's not much different, except that it uses up more sky and requires careful rudder work.

Also, remember the point of these drills, like the emergency stuff, is not to prepare you for flying around doing stalls all day- it's for when you pull that little bit too much that one time, and you have to avoid or recover from a stall properly, without even thinking about it. Practice, practice, practice.
 
greetings said:
This may sound like a dumb question, and I'm sure it is, but in a power on stall lets say one of the wings starts to drop: Which rudder input will correct this? Same rudder as the wing that is dropping or opposite? Thank you.
Click to expand...

It's the same answer as when you aren't stalling, as the rudder is not stalled. Practice it that way. It's a useful for when you fly over a sectional boundary and need both hands to unfold the next one, while keeping the blue side up.
 
From the Airplane Flying Handbook:

"The purpose of reducing the speed to lift-off airspeed before the throttle is advanced to the recommended setting is to avoid an excessively steep nose-up attitude before the airplane stalls."

My guess is that your CFI is not following the procedure outlined in the AFH. :mad:

Bob Gardner
 
bobmrg said:
From the Airplane Flying Handbook:

"The purpose of reducing the speed to lift-off airspeed before the throttle is advanced to the recommended setting is to avoid an excessively steep nose-up attitude before the airplane stalls."

My guess is that your CFI is not following the procedure outlined in the AFH. :mad:

Bob Gardner
Click to expand...

Bingo.

Getting it slowed down first makes them a lot more benign.
 
I think it also helps to add the power slightly behind your pitch up to climb angle.
 
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