traffic pattern for turbines: how wide for the downwind?

martym said:
I call BS. Publish the profile.
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I guess you didn't bother reading the rest of the thread where I corrected myself and said it was the FOM and not the OpSpec. Whatever....and no, I will not publish it.
 
dtuuri said:
Yaw dampers help too, I'd imagine. So, I'm still thinking about See's crash. What category would it have been circling in? Or, what's the T-38s stalling speed in the circling configuration? Slayton said See was too timid and didn't fly "aggressively" enough. :rolleyes: Whatever that means about a circling approach. In my experience, both high speed and high bank should be avoided on a circling approach. I'd call that sort of flying "too aggressive".
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No yaw damper.

I have to go dig out my Dash 1 for final turn speeds, but we mainly flew AOA for that.

I do recall that down a ILS right after takeoff, the bug speed was 175 KIAS.
 
FWIW, when speaking to turbo jets and VFR patterns and circling approaches, these are the profiles recommended by Gulfstream for the GIV.

GIV VFR Landing.JPG

GIV circling approach.JPG
 
Flew lots of visual patterns back in my KC-135 days. Typically on a "closed" pattern, we'd fly 180 knots about 1-1/2 - 2 miles displaced from the runway at 1,000' AGL. If we flew a 1,500' pattern, we'd be displaced a little wider.

We flew the downwind at flaps 20, put the gear down abeam the touchdown point. We'd put the flaps to 30 and start to turn base when the runway was 45 deg off. Flaps 40 on base and flaps 50 (optional) rolling out on final. We'd shoot to roll out somewhere between 1 and 1-1/2 mile on final.

In the work airplane, things are not as aggressive as that. If we're doing a visual, most guys shoot for a 5 mile final, which aligns nicely with an ILS final. The 757 guys are probably more aggressive with their VFR patterns, but I'd be surprised if they cut it any closer than 3 miles.
 
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dtuuri said:
So, what's the practical necessity of doing them other than to build skill in managing the plane. Just because you CAN do something doesn't mean you should. For instance, if the stsll speed is so high you need a 60° bank to stay within obstruction-free airspace, that's a good reason. OTOH, if you have room to spare, the accident record proves a shallower bank is less risky.
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In the T-37, we had 2 VFR patterns we used, an Outside pattern and an Inside (or closed) pattern. We'd fly pattern turns in the outside pattern using about 85-90* AOB and 6.5 G's. The practical necessity was two-fold. One, the less time you're belly up to the rest of the pattern, the less time you're "blind" and more time to actually clear. Also, people looking for you are more likely to see you when you are showing as big of a cross-section as possible. By flashing them the whole underside of your belly made you much easier to see.

In the inside/closed pattern, we'd come up initial and turn into the downwind using one, constant 60* bank turn. When we turned final (rolled off the perch), we'd shoot for a constant 30* turn, with up to 45* permissible.
 
Pinecone said:
But I guess the USN and USAF have NO idea what they are doing and crash a lot in the traffic pattern.
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Most civilian pilots do not have the level of training and proficiency of USN and USAF pilots.

Sluggo63 said:
Flew lots of visual patterns back in my KC-135 days.
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Was always impressed watching KC-135's flying the pattern at MacDill. Like a big 172.
 
Sluggo63 said:
In the T-37, we had 2 VFR patterns we used, an Outside pattern and an Inside (or closed) pattern. We'd fly pattern turns in the outside pattern using about 85-90* AOB and 6.5 G's. The practical necessity was two-fold. One, the less time you're belly up to the rest of the pattern, the less time you're "blind" and more time to actually clear. Also, people looking for you are more likely to see you when you are showing as big of a cross-section as possible. By flashing them the whole underside of your belly made you much easier to see.

In the inside/closed pattern, we'd come up initial and turn into the downwind using one, constant 60* bank turn. When we turned final (rolled off the perch), we'd shoot for a constant 30* turn, with up to 45* permissible.
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Same in the T-38, but at 1500 and slightly wider due to speed.

There were always 3 classes in T-37. So you had the older hands, the middle, and the newbies. So in the break for the overhead, you could watch and tell which class they were. The newbies did the 60 degree bank, 180 degree turn, get wings level, then speedbrake, then gear, then flaps. The middle students would get the speedbrake out in the turn, the gear while rolling wings level, then the flaps. The older hands would be halfway through the turn when out came the speedbrakes, gear, flaps, THEN roll wings level. :D

The outside pattern had defined ground points, so that everyone (well, most everyone) was flying the same pattern.
 
Ed Haywood said:
Most civilian pilots do not have the level of training and proficiency of USN and USAF pilots.
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Hmm, how well trained do you think a 15 hour student is? IIRC, first solo in the T-37 was about 15 - 18 hours. And yes, we flew 60 degrees of bank in the pattern.
 
Pinecone said:
Hmm, how well trained do you think a 15 hour student is? IIRC, first solo in the T-37 was about 15 - 18 hours. And yes, we flew 60 degrees of bank in the pattern.
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"I can do aerobatic maneuvers in an aerobatic aircraft, therefore anyone should be able to in any aircraft"
 
Pinecone said:
The outside pattern had defined ground points, so that everyone (well, most everyone) was flying the same pattern.
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That's what I was thinking when you said pattern speed was 300 kts, "They'd have to plow me a furrow in the dirt to follow."
 
flight2000 said:
I guess you didn't bother reading the rest of the thread where I corrected myself and said it was the FOM and not the OpSpec. Whatever....and no, I will not publish it.
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It wasn't your FOM either. Or CFM.
 
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