Traffic deconfliction at an uncontrolled airspace

G

GoodADMOrNot

Guest
I'm flying a high wing airplane.
Pattern altitude is 2300.
Winds favor runway 5.
I'm east-ish and think my best option is to overfly midfield at 2800 and teardrop into downwind 5 left.
I announce position and intentions at 10 miles.
I announce position and intentions at 2 miles.
I then hear traffic departing 5 and planning to make a right turn out which puts them, possibly, heading toward me depending on how 'right' they go.
2 planes do the same thing, one after the other.
I decide to increase my altitude to 3200 just go give me some space just in case.
I see one plane lift off, turn right, then lose sight of him.
I announce my location at 1 mile. Right about that time, one of the departing aircraft passes below me. I'm not very good at estimating distances but he's not close enough to cause any clench response. He's a low wing so I figure he had me in sight, even if he never called it.

Soooo...Good ADM on my part or was there a better/safer way for me to handle the situation?
 
If you were 10 miles east of a north-east facing runway (5), why would you overfly the airport and tear drop? You should have descended and positioned yourself for a standard 45 degree entry. A 30 degree turn early on would accomplish this.

You need to do a better job with your traffic pattern entry planning farther out.
 
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Clip4 said:
If you were 10 miles east of a north-east facing runway (5), why would you overfly the airport and tear drop? You should have descended and positioned yourself for a standard 45 degree entry.

You need to do a better job planning you traffic pattern entry planning.
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Unless it’s a Right Pattern, that would be incorrect from his position. I would overfly midfield and enter the left down wind AT midfield for 5.

For a visual reference:
8E47ED7B-B032-4F44-98AD-D958BB6D6E9C.jpeg
 
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To the OP. This is a perfect example why you need to learn to communicate via CTAF. Verbally ask the pilot what his route of flight will be to better clarify for your own planning purposes. Don’t be afraid to use the radio for its purpose.
 
Ryanb said:
To the OP. This is a perfect example why you need to learn to communicate via CTAF. Verbally ask the pilot what his route of flight will be to better clarify for your own planning purposes. Don’t be afraid to use the radio for its purpose.
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What have drawn is not a tear drop entry. Which is what he said he flew. What you have drawn is another perfectly acceptable way to enter.
 
Clip4 said:
If you were 10 miles east of a north-east facing runway (5), why would you overfly the airport and tear drop? ...
Click to expand...

I was taught to always overfly an unfamiliar airfield. unfamiliar defined as one I'd never been to before or one I hadn't visited in quite some time.
 
GoodADMOrNot said:
I'm flying a high wing airplane.
Pattern altitude is 2300.
Winds favor runway 5.
I'm east-ish and think my best option is to overfly midfield at 2800 and teardrop into downwind 5 left.
I announce position and intentions at 10 miles.
I announce position and intentions at 2 miles.
I then hear traffic departing 5 and planning to make a right turn out which puts them, possibly, heading toward me depending on how 'right' they go.
2 planes do the same thing, one after the other.
I decide to increase my altitude to 3200 just go give me some space just in case.
I see one plane lift off, turn right, then lose sight of him.
I announce my location at 1 mile. Right about that time, one of the departing aircraft passes below me. I'm not very good at estimating distances but he's not close enough to cause any clench response. He's a low wing so I figure he had me in sight, even if he never called it.

Soooo...Good ADM on my part or was there a better/safer way for me to handle the situation?
Click to expand...

Sounds like too much announcing and not enough communicating.
 
rk911 said:
I was taught to always overfly an unfamiliar airfield. unfamiliar defined as one I'd never been to before or one I hadn't visited in quite some time.
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Always? That must really baffle some folks at controlled airports.
 
This is a long standing POA CF on how to do this, I too would cross mid field at pattern altitude and turn left to the downwind. I believe some will say they fly cross wind and turn to the down wind. I prefer the cross field, the only caveat is that you need to be alert for someone coming in on the 45 or in the downwind already.
 
Clip4 said:
If you were 10 miles east of a north-east facing runway (5), why would you overfly the airport and tear drop? You should have descended and positioned yourself for a standard 45 degree entry. A 30 degree turn early on would accomplish this.

You need to do a better job with your traffic pattern entry planning farther out.
Click to expand...

huh? whu?
 
Clip4 said:
What have drawn is not a tear drop entry. Which is what he said he flew. What you have drawn is another perfectly acceptable way to enter.
Click to expand...
So what? I can't easily post a drawing, but all you have to do is overfly from the SE, and a right teardrop will put you on a 45 for the left downwind for 05.

Though I agree with @Ryanb that what he drew is a simpler and easier way to enter the pattern in this case.
 
Love the teardrop to 45 pattern entry. Just make sure you start the teardrop far enough away from the runway...too close and you risk tangling with pattern traffic, and it's harder to visually reacquire the runway as well.
 
Ryanb said:
Personally, I think that’s over complicating things much more than need be. I’ve honestly never found the advantage of a 45deg entry, as far as being able to better identify traffic over other various entry methods.
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I just showing what a tear drop entry is, it is not what should be done, but that is what the OP said he did.
 
My primary CFI also recommended overflying unfamiliar airports, checking out the winds, looking for planes doing run ups or positioning for takeoff, whatever. Then making a descending 180-ish teardrop to return on the 45 for the downwind. Seems to work OK at places that aren't too busy, but when there are already aircraft in the pattern or departing towards me, like the OP, then you gotta be flexible and figure a way to fit in. It's basically a variation on crossing midfield and entering the downwind from the infield side vs the outside. I know that some CFIs don't like it, it puts your back to the traffic for some amount of time and there's no guarantee that what you saw when you overflew will still be valid 3-5 minutes later.

I think it did help me when I was learning, it gave me a chance to get some visual clues on rwys or whatever and to get settled in. I don't remember the last time I did that, though.
 
Matthew said:
My primary CFI also recommended overflying unfamiliar airports, checking out the winds, looking for planes doing run ups or positioning for takeoff, whatever. Then making a descending 180-ish teardrop to return on the 45 for the downwind. Seems to work OK at places that aren't too busy, but when there are already aircraft in the pattern or departing towards me, like the OP, then you gotta be flexible and figure a way to fit in. It's basically a variation on crossing midfield and entering the downwind from the infield side vs the outside. I know that some CFIs don't like it, it puts your back to the traffic for some amount of time and there's no guarantee that what you saw when you overflew will still be valid 3-5 minutes later.

I think it did help me when I was learning, it gave me a chance to get some visual clues on rwys or whatever and to get settled in. I don't remember the last time I did that, though.
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Explain how to instruct that method when the traffic pattern is 200 ft under a Class C shelf?
 
rk911 said:
I was taught to always overfly an unfamiliar airfield. unfamiliar defined as one I'd never been to before or one I hadn't visited in quite some time.
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Be careful with always overflying an airport. Many have skydiving activities, an you should not overfly the field as it can create a major risk of collision with skydivers.
 
I thought we were encouraged to overfly the airport, 500 feet above pattern altitude, then once clear of the pattern, descend to pattern altitude, then turn right, to make the standard 45 degree pattern entry?
https://www.faa.gov/regulations_pol...iation/airplane_handbook/media/09_afh_ch7.pdf

See 7-5.

The other option seems to be to cross over the upwind at pattern altitude (so as to not have to descend into pattern traffic on the downwind, I would reckon), then turn directly into the downwind, yielding to the 45 degree entry traffic and existing pattern traffic.
 
Palmpilot said:
Not in my experience. I have recently experienced traffic conflicts in the pattern due to practices that were rare during most of my 27 years as a pilot.
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Maybe a regional thing, but mid field entries have been common since I started flying in 1980. The down wind landings and right traffic in a left pattern from the Cirrus crowd keeps things interesting.
 
Clip4 said:
Maybe a regional thing, but mid field entries have been common since I started flying in 1980. The down wind landings and right traffic in a left pattern from the Cirrus crowd keeps things interesting.
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Our individual impressions of what was common are potentially subject to a lot of factors, but the midfield crossover entry at pattern altitude was only recently blessed in FAA guidance. I've only within the past decade heard of the overhead entry's being in civilian use, and the first one I have personally witnessed (and that caused me to take evasive action) was within the past year.
 
StevieTimes said:
I thought we were encouraged to overfly the airport, 500 feet above pattern altitude, then once clear of the pattern, descend to pattern altitude, then turn right, to make the standard 45 degree pattern entry?
https://www.faa.gov/regulations_pol...iation/airplane_handbook/media/09_afh_ch7.pdf

See 7-5.

The other option seems to be to cross over the upwind at pattern altitude (so as to not have to descend into pattern traffic on the downwind, I would reckon), then turn directly into the downwind, yielding to the 45 degree entry traffic and existing pattern traffic.
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So in figure 7-4 (B) and in your last paragraph, how does one yield? Suppose there are planes both on the downwind and on the 45. Turn right then turn left? Fly over/under them?
:stirpot:
 
Clip4 said:
View attachment 64933
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OP here.

Yes, this is what I did. As I understand the AC on untowered entry (and a FAAS seminar I just attended), this is the preferred method of entry at 500' over the pattern altitude. The 'left turn at pattern into the downwind' is allowed if traffic is light (it wasn't and the FAAS presenter said he'd never do this even if allowed, but that was just his opinion). If I'd gone in at pattern and made the left turn directly into the pattern, I believe I would have been low enough to conflict directly with the outgoing traffic that passed under me. Remember, they were making a right turn out rather than a direct out or left 45 degree turn.

A couple of other comments. This was my home field so I'm familiar with it. It's untowered, not near any other airports, and was moderately busy the day I landed. The airport doesn't see parachutes, ultralights, or many gliders.
I did think about completely breaking off the approach to the airport but whatever I did, I was still right in the potential path of the outgoing planes; they were turning toward me no matter what I did.

So my takeaway: talk more to pilots when in doubt. The overfly/teardrop to 45 in this case was appropriate but could have ended badly since I wasn't clear that the outgoing planes saw me and were taking action to avoid me (since I couldn't see them until it was too late).

Thank you all. The feedback is greatly appreciated.
 
I hate the put your back to the airport and lose a picture of everything going on method. Always keep the airport in front of you, or in one of the side windows. The 500 over, turn your back and re enter is probably the stupidest, most asinine entry there is. I let my students know about it, but I don't advocate it.

When in controlled environments, ATC wants/needs you to maintain visual contact with other traffic once obtained. Why would you want to lose sight of it in an uncontrolled environment?
 
A simple crossover the field and direct entry into the downwind would suffice. I see two issues from the OP post. One, communication. As another poster stated, there sounds like there was a lot of announcing, but no communicating between aircraft. I would have specifically called the other aircraft and communicated my intentions and received his/hers. Then you would know that both are on the same page, and are hearing each other. It is entirely possible the OP was announcing, but for some reason was not being heard. They may not have known you were there.

The second issue is the departing aircraft making what sounds like an immediate right turn on departure into incoming traffic. They could have or should have extended their upwind from the airport, or departed from a left hand traffic pattern to help deconflict.
 
I agree with Ed. If the pattern is busy, the teardrop to 45 entry just means you have to reacquire all of that traffic when you enter the 45. Normally when coming from the opposite side I like to enter on a crosswind, not even a midfield crosswind, but a normal crosswind. Here, with someone departing to the right, that is likely to create a conflict so I would probably lean towards the midfield entry, or even an upwind entry, to keep an eye on the departing traffic.

Another option is simply to slow up to allow the guy departing to the right enough time to get out of the area, then do the midfield or even normal cross wind entry. As was said above, in a left pattern an immediate right turn on departure is likely turning right into incoming traffic; this is at least highly deprecated if not blatantly against the regs. But you have no control over his actions, all you can do is adapt your pattern entry.

I was also taught the teardrop to 45 entry but dislike it, for the same reason as stated by Ed. I use it occasionally to lose altitude when I've just come over higher terrain, or (more often) one or more 360s for that purpose, well away from the pattern, but I prefer not to when I can avoid it, even when the pattern is empty, because it can sometimes be difficult to reacquire the airport from a lower altitude.

As a general rule, once I've acquired the airport, I like to keep it in sight... ESPECIALLY if the pattern is busy.
 
asicer said:
So in figure 7-4 (B) and in your last paragraph, how does one yield? Suppose there are planes both on the downwind and on the 45. Turn right then turn left? Fly over/under them?
:stirpot:
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I agree! Seems sketchy. I still do the recommended overfly at 500, clear of pattern descend then turn back towards it, because I haven't flown enough to shortcut it with better ideas.
 
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