Traffic advisories in IMC

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Martymccasland

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M.McCasland
While flying today, I encountered some ATC communications that make me reconsider what I thought was correct.

It was 500OVC with a solid layer up to 8000-10000. I went out to do a few IFR currency approaches. I'm IMC 30 seconds after rotation and maybe 60 seconds or so coming in on the approach.

The controller calls "traffic 10 o'clock 3 miles, a 737". I respond, "Negative contact, I'm IMC". "Roger", the controller says. The controller then calls to the 737, he too responds, "Negative contact, IMC".

*Up to my flying career to this point (about 850 hours)*, including "in IMC" acts like a snooze button on controllers asking me to look out for traffic.

Not today.

Not 10 seconds later the same controller calls with "Airbus 2 o'clock 4 miles". I give another, "Negative contact, IMC." Then another, and another. On the 5th call I say, "Negative contact, still in IMC, I can't see a thing"

I forget what the controller says, but he seem annoyed with me continuing to say "in IMC"... Plus everyone he's calling too is suffixing with "...in IMC".

What am I missing? There were no pockets of visual conditions -- it was full IMC everywhere. Everyone was IFR/IMC. Should I have just simply responded, "Negative contact" over and over and over? Seems pointless when no one can see anyone.

What am I missing / what would have gotten the controller annoyed with my response?
 
Just wait until you get a traffic call of an unverified VFR at the same altitude, while you're in IMC. That happened to me the other day. F'ing bastard.
 
They don't know, they may have thought there were pockets of visual. I've had the same thing.
 
I have a bare minimum time in IMC, almost all with my primary CFI.

We were doing some actual, instead of hood, inside a shelf. What we didn't know was a VFR flight was in VMC and we were about to pop out the side, right into him. That's what the 2000 ft cloud clearance is for, but it's only a buffer if it's followed. We got a very quick, "traffic alert" from the controller with a "make immediate left turn" instruction. We turned hard, popped out, then back in. The other plane was close enough to count rivets.
 
They don't care if you are IMC or VMC. They are going to give you traffic reports. Reporting that you are IMC is not helpful.
 
I'm bound by rule so that if two aircraft are going to pass with minimum separation I MUST give a traffic call. You're IMC? Yeah I know you can't see them, but that's what I've got to do. In my rules that could mean as far as 1,000 feet above, 2.99 miles away and on a 44 degree deflection. You'll never see him as per your last call you're solid IMC and he won't impact you but I MUST. You feel very stupid saying it over and over.

The reason the controller was getting annoyed probably was because he/she had to continue to issue traffic knowing full well nobody could see everyone, everyone was separated and everybody kept saying IMC. Negative contact over and over would have been the best course as awful as it is.

Traffic advisories are awful to give for us when we know you can't see the traffic anyway (edited for RBridges catch in my poor wording). 91% of the time nobody cares. 7% of the time I'm more or less explaining facility SOP, 1% of the time its basically what Matthew said. Say what you will about me being on the ground, but if some clown endangers an IFR or FF I'm working, I get pretty puckered up and angry.

The other 1% are TCAS cowboys who see the uncontrolled field pattern below and get worked up.
 
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Similar last year coming home. I was IMC at 4000 MSL and the bases were around 3000. SEA approach called him, I couldn't see him (or anything else). He was getting FF. They then told him about me. He couldn't see me, either. :D My wife in the right seat was a little nervous (first time she had been in the clag with me since I had gotten my IR). Obviously, no problem.
 
Martymccasland said:
While flying today, I encountered some ATC communications that make me reconsider what I thought was correct.

It was 500OVC with a solid layer up to 8000-10000. I went out to do a few IFR currency approaches. I'm IMC 30 seconds after rotation and maybe 60 seconds or so coming in on the approach.

The controller calls "traffic 10 o'clock 3 miles, a 737". I respond, "Negative contact, I'm IMC". "Roger", the controller says. The controller then calls to the 737, he too responds, "Negative contact, IMC".

*Up to my flying career to this point (about 850 hours)*, including "in IMC" acts like a snooze button on controllers asking me to look out for traffic.

Not today.

Not 10 seconds later the same controller calls with "Airbus 2 o'clock 4 miles". I give another, "Negative contact, IMC." Then another, and another. On the 5th call I say, "Negative contact, still in IMC, I can't see a thing"

I forget what the controller says, but he seem annoyed with me continuing to say "in IMC"... Plus everyone he's calling too is suffixing with "...in IMC".

What am I missing? There were no pockets of visual conditions -- it was full IMC everywhere. Everyone was IFR/IMC. Should I have just simply responded, "Negative contact" over and over and over? Seems pointless when no one can see anyone.

What am I missing / what would have gotten the controller annoyed with my response?
Click to expand...

Probably your continually stating that you were in IMC each time he issued a traffic advisory. The controller is required to issue traffic advisories to all aircraft, IFR or VFR, without regard to weather conditions, when, in the controller's judgment, separation may diminish to less than the applicable minima, unless omission of advisories is requested by the pilot. Where no separation minima applies traffic advisories are to be issued when in the controller's judgment their proximity warrants it, unless omission of advisories is requested by the pilot. So next time, instead of "Negative contact, I'm IMC", try "Negative contact, please omit traffic advisories", or a reasonable facsimile thereof.
 
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Hum, nice tip. I did not know you could turn off traffic advisories.
 
Ghery said:
Similar last year coming home. I was IMC at 4000 MSL and the bases were around 3000. SEA approach called him, I couldn't see him (or anything else). He was getting FF. They then told him about me. He couldn't see me, either. :D My wife in the right seat was a little nervous (first time she had been in the clag with me since I had gotten my IR). Obviously, no problem.
Click to expand...

Ghery, reading your post made me think, "where'd we come up with the word clag" to refer to clouds??!

Found this, new to me!

An aviation acronym that originated within the Royal Air Force. It stands for "Clouds Low, Aircraft Grounded", but nowadays it is often used in general usage to describe grey, drizzly low laying cloud.
Click to expand...
 
Captain said:
Hum, nice tip. I did not know you could turn off traffic advisories.
Click to expand...


AIM

5−5−10. Traffic Advisories (Traffic
Information)

a. Pilot.

1. Acknowledges receipt of traffic advisories.

2. Informs controller if traffic in sight.

3. Advises ATC if a vector to avoid traffic is
desired.

4. Does not expect to receive radar traffic
advisories on all traffic. Some aircraft may not appear
on the radar display. Be aware that the controller may
be occupied with higher priority duties and unable to
issue traffic information for a variety of reasons.

5. Advises controller if service is not desired.
 
....or Negative contact Nxxxxx....works just fine....

I usually leave off the flight conditions because at the end of the transmission, you either see the traffic or you don't...

Good tip on turning advisories but I simply do not see myself ever doing that...
 
Who turns off traffic advisories? Can't use TCAS to substitute for visual sep.

Seems like this controller was issuing an awful lot of traffic advisories in the first place. Forget about the IMC part, if he's doing his job correctly with IFR vs IFR you should never get that many calls.
 
Approach_controller said:
I'm bound by rule so that if two aircraft are going to pass with minimum separation I MUST give a traffic call. You're IMC? Yeah I know you can't see them, but that's what I've got to do. In my rules that could mean as far as 1,000 feet above, 2.99 miles away and on a 44 degree deflection. You'll never see him as per your last call you're solid IMC and he won't impact you but I MUST. You feel very stupid saying it over and over.

The reason the controller was getting annoyed probably was because he/she had to continue to issue traffic knowing full well nobody could see everyone, everyone was separated and everybody kept saying IMC. Negative contact over and over would have been the best course as awful as it is.

Traffic advisories are awful to give for us. 91% of the time nobody cares. 7% of the time I'm more or less explaining facility SOP, 1% of the time its basically what Matthew said. Say what you will about me being on the ground, but if some clown endangers an IFR or FF I'm working, I get pretty puckered up and angry.

The other 1% are TCAS cowboys who see the uncontrolled field pattern below and get worked up.
Click to expand...


that's not true in my case. I'm very appreciative of them even though 99% would have never made a difference.
 
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Approach_controller said:
I'm bound by rule so that if two aircraft are going to pass with minimum separation I MUST give a traffic call. You're IMC? Yeah I know you can't see them, but that's what I've got to do. In my rules that could mean as far as 1,000 feet above, 2.99 miles away and on a 44 degree deflection. You'll never see him as per your last call you're solid IMC and he won't impact you but I MUST. You feel very stupid saying it over and over.

The reason the controller was getting annoyed probably was because he/she had to continue to issue traffic knowing full well nobody could see everyone, everyone was separated and everybody kept saying IMC. Negative contact over and over would have been the best course as awful as it is.

Traffic advisories are awful to give for us. 91% of the time nobody cares. 7% of the time I'm more or less explaining facility SOP, 1% of the time its basically what Matthew said. Say what you will about me being on the ground, but if some clown endangers an IFR or FF I'm working, I get pretty puckered up and angry.

The other 1% are TCAS cowboys who see the uncontrolled field pattern below and get worked up.
Click to expand...

Thanks for following FAA directives and doing what you are suppossed to do.
 
I get the same calls in IMC and I appreciate them. One time I was going in and out of IMC from one large buildup to another. I am at 11 and get a call opposite direction traffic at 10.5! I move 10 right to avoid. I come out of a buildup and see the traffic just below me come out of another buildup and go right into the one I just came out of. I'll say I'm in IMC, but I still want the calls.
 
For the record, I can't imagine a situation where I'd request no more advisories...I just didn't know there was an option.

Btw, we got folks here advocating turning off their transponders. For this and a thousand more reasons I hope nobody does.
 
Captain said:
For the record, I can't imagine a situation where I'd request no more advisories...I just didn't know there was an option.
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No kidding, my complaint is more often ATC not providing advisories when I can very clearly see the traffic.
 
rbridges said:
that's not true in my case. I'm very appreciative of them even though 99% would have never made a difference.
Click to expand...

Sorry, I wrote and rewrote that. I should have clarified on my proofread that they're awful in those everyone is IMC situations.
 
If I'm IMC I just say, "Roger, 4 Papa Alpha." But if I'm VMC I'll say, "Looking for traffic, 4 Papa Alpha." In both cases the controllers know that I have received their required advisory.
 
DrMack said:
If I'm IMC I just say, "Roger, 4 Papa Alpha." But if I'm VMC I'll say, "Looking for traffic, 4 Papa Alpha." In both cases the controllers know that I have received their required advisory.
Click to expand...

Just a nit. There are only two appropriate responses to a traffic advisory: "Negative contact" and "Traffic in sight." Check the Pilot/Controller Glossary. "Roger" conveys nothing to the controller other than that you received his traffic alert.

Bob Gardner
 
Interesting. I'm going to try that. I'm based under the DFW shelf so we hear a lot of these advisories from the D10 TRACON, mostly for VFR traffic of course. The "negative contact" response conveys to the controller two pieces of important information, that we have received the advisory and for whatever reason, IMC or otherwise, we do not see the traffic. I have always felt that informing the controller that I am IMC is irrelevant to the controller's immediate task so I just acknowledged the receipt of the advisory. Thanks for reminding us of this little bit of what I would consider aviation poetry.
 
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