Traded in our most expensive car ever on Saturday

[Dav8or]

The Smart would be fun if it came with a manual transmission.

I would really help. It should have a manual stick option and for the lazy people a CVT transmission.

 

[MAKG1]

I drive a stick as well, and I enjoy it, but let's face it, they're on their way out. These days, a conventional three pedal manual transmission is only used in low priced cars, or in performance applications where the manufacturer doesn't have an appropriate dual clutch transmission.

You do realize that argument was made about the Turbo Hydramatic 400 when it came out, right? It's been some 40 years and manuals are still sold.

The truth is that automatic transmissions are often the limiting factor in a vehicle's lifetime. They are stupid-expensive to replace and excessively sensitive to heat. From an engineering perspective, they have MANY more moving parts than an equivalent manual. Modern (electronic shifting) models can disable a vehicle with a single broken wire; older ones had wildly complex hydraulic control systems that could plug or wear.

 

[Henning]

You pretty much missed my point altogether. I was talking about something like a fuel cell that instead of hydrogen, consumed some sort of petrolium product. I was not talking about a traditional battery powered car.

Why bother? The key benefit to a fuel cell is that you use waste heat from the electric generation process for desalinization/decontamination of non-potable , heavily contaminated water and then transport it for 11% of the mass of the water then reconstitute it along with producing 9 liters of water per kilogram while obtaining the same energy as burning a gallon of gas as well as more heat in the conversion available for use. Efficiency is about getting more than one thing out of any process.

 

[ClimbnSink]

It is the opposite. Modern automatics outlast the cars, standard transmission will as well but they will need a clutch($1,000) when the owner no longer wants to dump money in the car. If you are going to buy an econo box and drive it to the end getting an auto makes more sense.

You do realize that argument was made about the Turbo Hydramatic 400 when it came out, right? It's been some 40 years and manuals are still sold.

The truth is that automatic transmissions are often the limiting factor in a vehicle's lifetime. They are stupid-expensive to replace and excessively sensitive to heat. From an engineering perspective, they have MANY more moving parts than an equivalent manual. Modern (electronic shifting) models can disable a vehicle with a single broken wire; older ones had wildly complex hydraulic control systems that could plug or wear.

 

[Henning]

You do realize that argument was made about the Turbo Hydramatic 400 when it came out, right? It's been some 40 years and manuals are still sold.

The truth is that automatic transmissions are often the limiting factor in a vehicle's lifetime. They are stupid-expensive to replace and excessively sensitive to heat. From an engineering perspective, they have MANY more moving parts than an equivalent manual. Modern (electronic shifting) models can disable a vehicle with a single broken wire; older ones had wildly complex hydraulic control systems that could plug or wear.

Tell this story to anyone that blew a manual transmission out of a Dodge Diesel truck. It costs 4 times as much to repair than an automatic.

 

[stratobee]

Unless we build more nuke plants, you're basically switching from oil fired to coal fired. Wind and solar are still in the single digits on electrical power grid, last I checked. So you'd be buying a fossil fueled car, after all.

The production tax credit for wind power equipment production ended Jan 1, 2014 unless I missed the news to extend it again, one year at a time, and manufacturers mostly shuttered plants and consolidated, seeing that their market -- which only worked fiscally, with the credit -- immediately dropping off by huge percentages as the true costs would be what was charged to customers.

Your home of California has done well with wind, being second or third place at my last check, but many folks are surprised to find out Texas eclipses the second place State by triple.

Most utilities in other States offer customers the ability to pay more to buy wind power and feel green, and then the majority of that customer's power still comes from coal. Gotta read the fine print on those offers...

Big oil has its problems, but you have to admit that delivering a product with as much labor as oil to almost every American in the form of gasoline at a price (with road taxes removed) that is often cheaper than bottled water, or "energy" drinks, at the same store, in the fridge, on a per gallon basis, is a pretty impressive of an incredibly efficient delivery system.

Coal also has similar mass delivery system economies of scale. But you're mostly burning coal in an electric car. It isn't clean. If that makes you feel better...

No coal isn't clean. But it's still a lot cleaner to burn it there and then transport it over an infrastructure that's already paid for and in place. With oil it has to go from the middle east on tankers, get piped or driven to refineries, heated until it breaks (using electricity btw, more than 1Kw/gallon), then pumped into gas trucks and then trucked out to gas stations where you have to drive your car to get it and then burned in an engine that's 25% efficient only. The losses are staggering. But as I said, I'm not loving electric because I'm an environmental nut, I just think it's a better prime mover than anything else.

Just imagine the benefits for aviation in the future when the prime mover is electric:

1. No carb ice.
2. No need for complicated constant speed props (as electrical motors have linear power output and no sweet spot).
3. No TBO - only limited by bearing life.
4. No CO poisoning.
5. No shock cooling.
6. No rich cut.
7. No degradation at altitude, no need for turbos etc.
8. Built in Fadec (brushless motors you set a RPM setting and it keeps it through the controller, no matter what).
9. No need to check oil.
10. Much less weight. About 10hp/kg. That's a much higher power-to-weight ratio than any turboprop can deliver.
11. No dirt.
12. No vibrations.
13. No noise.
14. No leaning at altitude.
15. No ROP or LOP bulls**t.
16. No need for expensive engine monitors.
17. No need for cylinder head temp, EGT or TIT meters.

It's just the future. Why fight it?

 

[FormerHangie]

You do realize that argument was made about the Turbo Hydramatic 400 when it came out, right? It's been some 40 years and manuals are still sold.

The truth is that automatic transmissions are often the limiting factor in a vehicle's lifetime. They are stupid-expensive to replace and excessively sensitive to heat. From an engineering perspective, they have MANY more moving parts than an equivalent manual. Modern (electronic shifting) models can disable a vehicle with a single broken wire; older ones had wildly complex hydraulic control systems that could plug or wear.

I was referring to customer choice, not technical superiority. Somewhere around 6.5% of new cars sold in the US have manual transmissions, and only a minority of models are available with one. Like I said, a stick shift is my preference but I'm in a small minority.

 

[MAKG1]

It is the opposite. Modern automatics outlast the cars, standard transmission will as well but they will need a clutch($1,000) when the owner no longer wants to dump money in the car. If you are going to buy an econo box and drive it to the end getting an auto makes more sense.

You're kidding, right?

$1000 for a gold plated clutch, perhaps. The parts cost $200 or so (including a flywheel) and labor is about 3-4 hours for a transaxle. That's well short of $1000. A traditional transmission is less, as you don't have to futz with axles or wheels, and they are lighter and easier to manhandle.

And automatic transmissions have clutches, too. A lot of them. They are much more difficult to replace.

And a blown clutch won't destroy a manual transmission. A blown torque converter can destroy an automatic. A blown radiator can't kill a manual transmission (though it might do bad things to the engine). About the only things that kill manuals are oil starvation (which can sometimes be caused by design errors, or more frequently, complete lack of maintenance causing all the oil to leak out without detection) and overloading.

 

[ClimbnSink]

Bring a front wheel drive car into a shop here and a clutch will be $1,000. If you can do one in your garage that is different.

 

[FormerHangie]

You're kidding, right?

$1000 for a gold plated clutch, perhaps. The parts cost $200 or so (including a flywheel) and labor is about 3-4 hours for a transaxle. That's well short of $1000. A traditional transmission is less, as you don't have to futz with axles or wheels, and they are lighter and easier to manhandle.

And automatic transmissions have clutches, too. A lot of them. They are much more difficult to replace.

And a blown clutch won't destroy a manual transmission. A blown torque converter can destroy an automatic. A blown radiator can't kill a manual transmission (though it might do bad things to the engine). About the only things that kill manuals are oil starvation (which can sometimes be caused by design errors, or more frequently, complete lack of maintenance causing all the oil to leak out without detection) and overloading.

One thing I've never been able to figure out is how long a clutch lasts, despite having driven manual transmission cars for 20 of the last 40 years. I've never had to replace one in a street driven car. My car has 126,000 miles, 85% of which are in town, average speed < 25 mph, and its clutch is going strong. If the clutch goes once between now and the end of the car's life, then I'd wind up giving back most of the $1000 I saved by buying a manual trans car, but I'd still have the $750 I've saved in fuel costs. Assuming it doesn't blow up in the next year, at which time I'm planning on replacing the car, I'll have saved over $1800 over the car's life.

I used to work in a dealership, and while we sold lots of cars with manual transmissions, we sold hardly any clutches. All the anecdotal evidence I can find indicates to me that most clutches in passenger cars last the car's life span.

 

[jmn444]

I've got over 40k miles on my stock '07 mustang clutch, and considering I've added roughly 250 rwhp to the car I can't complain if it dies tomorrow. Drive properly and they last a long time.

 

[Ted]

Lots of factors in clutch life. Some friends of mine had 225k on the original clutch in their Saturn before it went out.

As to automatic vs. manual life, there are lots of variables in that discussion. Generally I have found manuals last longer (minus the clutch), but it depends on which manual and which automatic, and how well the automatic was maintained. Most automatics never get a fluid change until they explode. A 700R4 will be cheap to overhaul (under a grand), the Mercedes 5-speed auto in an XJR is a $5,000 affair.

Most people in this country want automatics. Most people in other countries don't. Since I buy used cars, this means I have no impact on the market, so my opinion doesn't matter to the OEMs.

 

[MAKG1]

I used to work in a dealership, and while we sold lots of cars with manual transmissions, we sold hardly any clutches. All the anecdotal evidence I can find indicates to me that most clutches in passenger cars last the car's life span.

Even the crappy overweight Ford Exploder I used to drive could do 150,000 miles on a clutch with daily mountain driving (= a lot of shifting). Same deal with the even crappier Bronco II before that.

The VW is on its factory original "made in West Germany" clutch and has at least 200,000 miles. The 2000 Saturn is also on its factory original clutch with a definite 190,000 miles.

I replaced a clutch once on the Corolla in its 310,000 mile lifetime.

The Chevy needed it when I got it. Mileage was at least 1/4 million and it had been used to tow a trailer for 35 years. That one was a PITA -- cast iron 4-on-the-floor transmission, heavy SOB.

Given what people think the lifespan of a vehicle is, my experience is consistent with yours.

Now, it's possible to crack a flywheel by riding the clutch, which is largely indistinguishable from a worn clutch if severe, but it's not a lifetime issue if the driver is an idiot.

 

[FormerHangie]

Dual clutch transmissions that have a wet clutch (VW, Porsche, others) need more frequent oil changes than do manual transmissions. My sister has a DSG in her VW, the transmission oil is scheduled to be changed every 40,000 miles at approximately $250. Porsches go 60,000 on their clutch oil (around $600) and 120,000 on their transmission fluid. Apparently the process on both these cars is a little more complex than just draining and filling.

 

[Jimmy cooper]

You line up beside a Carrera S with paddles, you with a manual and your in for a shock. The automatic porsche will beat you. Not only that but once used to it, ( about 500 miles) you'll wonder why you considered a manual. I never wanted anything but a 911, the other models never interested me. The fellow who bought it from me almost didn't buy it.......until he drove it. He had a 1998 that he drove to death. Big smile, wrote me a check. If you can afford a recent porsche, changing the oil, or other maintence shouldn't trouble you. They are a high maintenance car if well maintained. After my 5.0 1992 mustang, I never bought another American car. It was a manual. It was junk.

 

[Henning]

I'll take a Lenco behind a Crowerglide clutch, at lease it'll handle sone real horsepower.

 

[weilke]

My wife and I have commuted a couple of daily drivers into oblivion. Mostly stick, some auto (conventional and DSG) I have spent far less on the manual transmissions. $1000 buys you a clutch on a performance car, the daily drivers never cost me more than $450. My wife is up to 160k on the first clutch with her V6 Accord.

 

[Dav8or]

Most people in this country want automatics. Most people in other countries don't. Since I buy used cars, this means I have no impact on the market, so my opinion doesn't matter to the OEMs.

This trend is changing in Europe. Ever since the manufacturers figured out ways to have automatic transmissions get nearly the same gas mileage as sticks, more and more Euroeans are warming up to them. Given a decade or two, I imagine the buying trends there will mirror here. I would image the rest of the world too. Unless you are a driving enthusiast, easier is easier and that is cross cultural.

 

[bluee]

This trend is changing in Europe. Ever since the manufacturers figured out ways to have automatic transmissions get nearly the same gas mileage as sticks, more and more Euroeans are warming up to them. Given a decade or two, I imagine the buying trends there will mirror here. I would image the rest of the world too. Unless you are a driving enthusiast, easier is easier and that is cross cultural.

Germans take their driving seriously. They are expected to take the driving exam in a manual transmission. If they take the driving exam in an automatic, their license has a limitation on it only valid for automatics. I'm a little out of touch with that now, but last I heard the driving schools have manual transmission cars, and you have to take the exam through a school.

 

[weilke]

Dual clutch transmissions that have a wet clutch (VW, Porsche, others) need more frequent oil changes than do manual transmissions. My sister has a DSG in her VW, the transmission oil is scheduled to be changed every 40,000 miles at approximately $250. Porsches go 60,000 on their clutch oil (around $600) and 120,000 on their transmission fluid. Apparently the process on both these cars is a little more complex than just draining and filling.

The fluid that goes into a Borg/Warner/VW DSG is affectionately known as ' liquid gold'. Some people cheap out and just change the fluid not the filter.

 

[Dav8or]

Germans take their driving seriously. They are expected to take the driving exam in a manual transmission. If they take the driving exam in an automatic, their license has a limitation on it only valid for automatics. I'm a little out of touch with that now, but last I heard the driving schools have manual transmission cars, and you have to take the exam through a school.

Yeah, that's great and everything, but I'm talking about the kind of new cars people are actually buying in Europe and automatics are on the rise. They may make you learn on a stick, but how many really don't care and would love to go automatic after they get their license?

 

[Henning]

The fluid that goes into a Borg/Warner/VW DSG is affectionately known as ' liquid gold'. Some people cheap out and just change the fluid not the filter.

Hmmm, how much is the stuff? It might be worthwhile to set up an AlfaLaval and centrifuge it for reuse.

 

[N747JB]

As for manual transmissions, we sell 50-60 new Fords per month and MAYBE 2-3 are manuals. The only vehicles we have with manual transmissions are: Fiesta, Focus and Mustang. No trucks or SUV's.

 

[denverpilot]

There's been a wholesale switch to natural gas in the last few years, mys supplier was at 60% coal four years ago, and is now at 30% coal, the difference being natural gas replacing coal.

True. Depends on availability. Nat gas was always used for peaker plants, but has gained popularity in the base load side of things in areas where it's plentiful.

Still a fossil fuel, which was the point of the reply. Feeling smug about an electric car is kinda silly... the majority are burning fossil fuels to top off batteries made of fairly toxic but contained stuff.

 

[denverpilot]

As for manual transmissions, we sell 50-60 new Fords per month and MAYBE 2-3 are manuals. The only vehicles we have with manual transmissions are: Fiesta, Focus and Mustang. No trucks or SUV's.

Not a bad fiscal move, but there's definitely some folks who had to jump to Dodge over that. Especially in the F450/F550 cab/chassis type work trucks.

Mixed with the god-awful 6.0L diesel fiasco and the ho-hum 6.4L with less but similar issues, many are a bit shaken with Ford heavy duty trucks.

My buddy who bought his late-model Ford 7.3L out of the company lease when they offered to sell company trucks to employees who drove them, is offered cash by every contractor he runs into for it. And his company now has him in a half-ton Dodge gasser as his leased company truck.

And Truck of the Year for Dodge this year with their mini-diesel in a 1/2 ton? Looks like it'll be a whole new market niche that everyone else will have to catch up on. Will be interesting to see if Dodge executed correctly.

 

[Ted]

If I were going to buy a 3/4 or 1-ton truck today, it'd be a Ford. And I say that having owned all three.

 

[bluee]

Yeah, that's great and everything, but I'm talking about the kind of new cars people are actually buying in Europe and automatics are on the rise. They may make you learn on a stick, but how many really don't care and would love to go automatic after they get their license?

My point was that virtually all Germans who have a driving license can drive a manual transmission, not like Americans. Automatics are more expensive, and plus, in many countries in Europe the cars are taxed by engine size, so the cars are small and manual.

 

[weilke]

Hmmm, how much is the stuff? It might be worthwhile to set up an AlfaLaval and centrifuge it for reuse.

It is about $24/liter and you need 5 bottles for the diy method and 6 for the factory method. In addition you need a filter for $25.

Changing the fluid is the easy part as it can be done from underneath the vehicle. The filter sits on top of the transmission and changing it requires removal of the air-filter box and battery box so some shops and diy owners only do that every second change.

I dont think it would be as simple as spinning the stuff down, it has to have just the right viscosity for the wet clutches to work. That is my biggest beef with the DSG, it doesn't work well in the cold. This morning it was 10F and my transmission was unwilling to shift into gear for a couple of seconds. If the car ever drops below -10F the clutches dont disengage and the starter can't turn the engine over. Canadian VW models have a diesel-fired furnace to heat up the coolant and a heating pad on the DSG to keep it from locking up.

 

[olasek]

but how many really don't care and would love to go automatic after they get their license?

Many, perhaps more affluent would prefer automatics with more expensive cars and bigger engine size. I would never want an automatic in a small car with small engine- it could be a real dog. Also a manual will generally give you better gas mileage and better long term reliability and with very high prices of petrol in Europe - everything counts.

 

[Henning]

With the advent of lock up torque converters, the mileage of cars with anything but the tiniest of engines is not considerably less with an automatic. For a daily driver in stop and go traffic, one will see very little difference in mileage and it's a hell of a lot easier on the legs.

 

[weilke]

Many, perhaps more affluent would prefer automatics with more expensive cars and bigger engine size. I would never want an automatic in a small car with small engine- it could be a real dog. Also a manual will generally give you better gas mileage and better long term reliability and with very high prices of petrol in Europe - everything counts.

The gas mileage issue has changed somewhat, for my VW the fuel economy with the automatic transmission is slightly better than the comparable manual transmission. It jus does a great job at keeping the engine within the rpm band that offers the best bsfc.

The dual-clutch autobox is what will eventually eliminate the classic clutch-transmission manual gearbox. ZF, one of the larger producers of transmissions offers a 'manual' transmission using the innards of their double-clutch system.

 

[FormerHangie]

With the advent of lock up torque converters, the mileage of cars with anything but the tiniest of engines is not considerably less with an automatic. For a daily driver in stop and go traffic, one will see very little difference in mileage and it's a hell of a lot easier on the legs.

The fuel economy of most dual clutch transmissions is as good or slightly better than the equivalent manual. CVTs are almost always more fuel efficient and are generally maintenance free. Both have an initial cost premium.

A few years ago, Consumer Reports did some real world testing on manual transmission vs automatic transmission fuel economy. They found that even though the EPA test figures favored the automatics in many cases, in reality the manuals were 5% - 8% better. There are some losses within a conventional automatic that are very hard to overcome. Dual clutch transmissions don't have those extra losses.

If you have a conventional automatic with the same number of gears as the manual transmission version of that car, you can expect somewhat higher fuel consumption. A dual clutch should have slightly better or the same fuel economy as a manual, given the same number of gears. If the conventional automatic has more gears than does the manual, it may get better fuel economy. If the dual clutch trans has more gears, it will almost certainly get better mileage. CVTs should always get the best mileage.

 

[weilke]

[

If you have a conventional automatic with the same number of gears as the manual transmission version of that car, you can expect somewhat higher fuel consumption. A dual clutch should have slightly better or the same fuel economy as a manual, given the same number of gears. If the conventional automatic has more gears than does the manual, it may get better fuel economy. If the dual clutch trans has more gears, it will almost certainly get better mileage.

Some of the differences between automatic and manual are the result of the testing regime with its fixed speeds. If that speed happens to be at the sweet-spot for engine rpm in either the manual or autobox, the results will be skewed.

CVTs should always get the best mileage.

Yet I hate every minute of driving with one.

Nissan for some reason loves CVTs, even with whatever their V6 of the day is it leaves you with a terrible spongy response.

 

[us AAirways]

As for manual transmissions, we sell 50-60 new Fords per month and MAYBE 2-3 are manuals. The only vehicles we have with manual transmissions are: Fiesta, Focus and Mustang. No trucks or SUV's.

I had a Focus automatic as a rental a few weeks ago. I think those have a DCT?? Maybe something was wrong with it, but it was terrible. Would shake when starting out, and didn't know what gear it was supposed to be in going up hills etc. Was like a noobie driving a stick.

 

[MAKG1]

I had a Focus automatic as a rental a few weeks ago. I think those have a DCT?? Maybe something was wrong with it, but it was terrible. Would shake when starting out, and didn't know what gear it was supposed to be in going up hills etc. Was like a noobie driving a stick.

You mean a Ford F***Up?

More consumer market BS. Ford has apparently launched a silent TSB on that transmission and has been reflashing power train chips for owners that know enough to ask.

I had a similar experience renting a Killed In Action (KIA). Except this was with a few inches of snow on the road. That POS slipped a wheel every time it downshifted. Which happened every time I so much as thought about adding throttle. Which happened all the time in the northeast Ohio hill country.

 

[mikea]

When I become king, you won't be able to borrow money on a car that costs more than $25,000. If you can't pay cash, you don't need a fancy car.

Borrow money! HAHAHAHAHAHA!

You lease the car for your business and write off every single payment as a business expense.

I dunno if it's still there, but Mo' betteh, you pay with company cash or financing for a vehicle with the correct cost (Truck over 4000lbs the last I heard, intended for farmers) and get the investment tax CREDIT. With a credit you pay less tax this year equal to 10% of the purchase price.

That why you saw all those douches driving Hummers and other mega-SUVs.

 

[gismo]

As for manual transmissions, we sell 50-60 new Fords per month and MAYBE 2-3 are manuals. The only vehicles we have with manual transmissions are: Fiesta, Focus and Mustang. No trucks or SUV's.

Who would want a sporty manual transmission in a truck?

 

[gismo]

Dual clutch transmissions that have a wet clutch (VW, Porsche, others) need more frequent oil changes than do manual transmissions. My sister has a DSG in her VW, the transmission oil is scheduled to be changed every 40,000 miles at approximately $250. Porsches go 60,000 on their clutch oil (around $600) and 120,000 on their transmission fluid. Apparently the process on both these cars is a little more complex than just draining and filling.

My latest car has a DSG but it has separate lubrication for the wet clutches vs the meshed gears. I wonder what it's going to cost me for transmission oil changing?

FWIW this is the first non-manual car I've had for a daily driver since 1972. Then again it's technically a "manual" transmission with a couple of automated clutches. The only gripe I've got so far is that it's nearly impossible to creep forward a few inches unless you're going downhill and put the transmission in neutral.

 

[gismo]

One thing I've never been able to figure out is how long a clutch lasts, despite having driven manual transmission cars for 20 of the last 40 years. I've never had to replace one in a street driven car. My car has 126,000 miles, 85% of which are in town, average speed < 25 mph, and its clutch is going strong. If the clutch goes once between now and the end of the car's life, then I'd wind up giving back most of the $1000 I saved by buying a manual trans car, but I'd still have the $750 I've saved in fuel costs. Assuming it doesn't blow up in the next year, at which time I'm planning on replacing the car, I'll have saved over $1800 over the car's life.

I used to work in a dealership, and while we sold lots of cars with manual transmissions, we sold hardly any clutches. All the anecdotal evidence I can find indicates to me that most clutches in passenger cars last the car's life span.

I've had to replace two clutches in 40+ years. One wasn't actually a clutch disk failure but I replaced that anyway since I had it apart and had something like 140,000 miles on it when the pilot bearing froze up. The other one was in a Eagle Talon (turbo AWD) and I had abused the clutch a bit doing launches in some parking lot autocross events. That clutch didn't actually fail until I accidentally let a teenager who was going to buy the car take it for a test drive by himself. An hour an a half after he drove off without me or his uncle (who was supposed to accompany the kid on the drive) I got a call from his mother saying the car died. He was doing hole shots and the clutch disk exploded.

 

[Dav8or]

Who would want a sporty manual transmission in a truck?

Well, since you brought it up, I thought I'd ask- Do the new trucks (I haven't driven a new pick up in decades) offer a low "granny gear" like the old manuals did back in the day? I have owned and driven many vintage pick up trucks and the low gear is actually pretty useful, particularly with a low power engine. Something in these fuel economy driven days that the big three might consider.