Traded in our most expensive car ever on Saturday

That "car" is an ariel atom modified with the elec motor, at 1350 lbs it would beat the other cars with the gas engine as well.
 
That "car" is an ariel atom modified with the elec motor, at 1350 lbs it would beat the other cars with the gas engine as well.

Yeah, not really a fair comparison, but fun to watch nonetheless...
 
Yep, I'd like to drive one but afraid id "need" one if I do!
 
Dark Side approves Ariel Atoms
 

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Because they are quite aerodynamic and efficient and pretty to fun to drive.
:yeahthat: Although for some of the earlier versions of the 911 I'd substitute "entertaining" for "fun".
 
One great thing about electric motors is the amazing torque that can be had.

Check out this guy racing a Ferrari and a Porsche and smoking the pants off of them in his homebuilt electric car at my local racetrack.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BqqtJpfZElQ
Torque is nothing, HP is everything if you have a transmission with enough gears. It is true that with some electric motors the ability to generate torque increases as the RPM decrease which is just the opposite of most ICEs and that ability reduces or eliminates the need for a transmission or allows fewer gears for the same performance.
 
Batteries do have a long way to go. But they're getting better and better. Some disruptive battery technology will come along that tenfolds it at some point and then it will all be over for oil. Batteries don't need to reach fossil fuel power storage levels, only 1/3 of that as combustion engines waste 75% in heat and noise. Those numbers are not as far off as we think.

Aviation is gonna take a little bit longer as we run on higher power levels. But it will happen.
LIke Duncan said, until batteries can be "recharged" as quickly as you can add energy to your gasoline tank they will not be able to compete in any scenario where the daily travel exceeds the range from a single charge. Even if some new battery chemistry comes along that provides equivalent range to a gasoline powered car and can be recharged fully in 5 minutes or less, there's going to be a problem delivering that amount of electrical energy in such a short period. That would be a power level of 5-10 Megawatts or 25,000 to 50,000 amps at 200 volts. I just don't see any way to provide that safely.

IOW it won't be "over for oil" until someone comes up with a way to deliver electrical energy in a form that's as easily transferred as gasoline.

Edit: lost a decimal place somewhere and my power numbers were 10x reality.
 
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Rumors are in the wind that Audi may come out with some type of diesel over electric hybrid, which is a mating of the best of two worlds.

Why no one is mating diesel or turbo-diesel to electric is madness imo.

You would rocket off on electric, and the diesel would take over for loads, charging, and any other extraneous power events or range the car needs. It's a match made in heaven, and why no one is doing it is beyond me.
 
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LIke Duncan said, until batteries can be "recharged" as quickly as you can add energy to your gasoline tank they will not be able to compete in any scenario where the daily travel exceeds the range from a single charge. Even if some new battery chemistry comes along that provides equivalent range to a gasoline powered car and can be recharged fully in 5 minutes or less, there's going to be a problem delivering that amount of electrical energy in such a short period. That would be a power level of 50-100 Megawatts or 250,000 to 500,000 amps at 200 volts. I just don't see any way to provide that safely.

IOW it won't be "over for oil" until

Soon, Graphene batteries on their way.
 
Soon, Graphene batteries on their way.
Even if/when graphene batteries become practical (which is not guaranteed as there are many technical hurdles to overcome) they won't solve the problem of delivering the energy equivalent of 20 gallons of gasoline in a few minutes.
 
Even if/when graphene batteries become practical (which is not guaranteed as there are many technical hurdles to overcome) they won't solve the problem of delivering the energy equivalent of 20 gallons of gasoline in a few minutes.

That and water are why hydrogen fuel cells have the advantage.
 
I drive a paid-for 1996 Dodge Grande Caravan with a perfectly operating heater/air conditioner so that I could put in $60K cash for a 1/4 share on a paid-for 2007 Diamond DA40. Happy, happy, happy!
 
That and water are why hydrogen fuel cells have the advantage.

Now, if somebody could invent a fuel cell that works on a petroleum product we'd be getting somewhere. Manufacturing and distribution infrastructure already in place.

A lot of talk all the time about alternate energy sources and alternate fuels, but very little talk about possibly using the fuels we have now more efficiently. The ICE is maxed out. It's done. It is at best about 30% efficient. In the 21st century, that's pretty crappy. Imagine a fuel cell type device that used say, kerosene and coupled to electric motors that could achieve 60-70 % efficiency. That would be a revolution.

OK all you chemists and physicists, go to work! You have your homework.
 
Now, if somebody could invent a fuel cell that works on a petroleum product we'd be getting somewhere. Manufacturing and distribution infrastructure already in place.

A lot of talk all the time about alternate energy sources and alternate fuels, but very little talk about possibly using the fuels we have now more efficiently. The ICE is maxed out. It's done. It is at best about 30% efficient. In the 21st century, that's pretty crappy. Imagine a fuel cell type device that used say, kerosene and coupled to electric motors that could achieve 60-70 % efficiency. That would be a revolution.

OK all you chemists and physicists, go to work! You have your homework.
80-90 mpg is possible on gas, but the cars have to light and small. Unable to pass current safety standards and not appealing to the soccer cow demographic. I think it is ridiculous that I can't buy an 'unsafe' light car, govs gotta protect me, but I can ride a scooter in the same traffic.:mad2:
 
80-90 mpg is possible on gas, but the cars have to light and small. Unable to pass current safety standards and not appealing to the soccer cow demographic. I think it is ridiculous that I can't buy an 'unsafe' light car, govs gotta protect me, but I can ride a scooter in the same traffic.:mad2:

The Diesel Smart got me just over 70mpg.
 
No diesel smart car in the US, published MPG for gas when I just looked was 36.
 
80-90 mpg is possible on gas, but the cars have to light and small.

OK... but what I'm suggesting is that if you change the motive power to a greater efficiency, your big ol' SUV could get 80 mpg and that little light weight car could get 160 mpg.
 
The Smart car here in America (don't know about Europe) has the worst transmission ever devised by man! OK, maybe a little hyperbole, but it is the worst transmission available in a new car. The Smart car has one mission and one useful trick. It can park in the smallest possible space. So for urban city dwellers, it is useful. Other than that, there is nothing smart about the Smart car.
 
The Smart car here in America (don't know about Europe) has the worst transmission ever devised by man! OK, maybe a little hyperbole, but it is the worst transmission available in a new car. The Smart car has one mission and one useful trick. It can park in the smallest possible space. So for urban city dwellers, it is useful. Other than that, there is nothing smart about the Smart car.

Well, it does go a long way in proving the "ping pong ball" mode of safety vs the 'crumple zone'.
 
Cool that someone finally built a car where the gas motor charges the battery, no direct drive from the gas engine. The Prius model is just a glorified gas golf cart.

I'm sure you have never driven a prius, much less a prius V which I now own. Great car, far from a "golf cart" fun to drive, merges well and 43 mpg is great on gas and it's regular gas. Corners well, good sounds, etc. I previously owned a Carrera S porsche which was truly a great drive. It was also an automatic. Many so called "experts" will opine that shifting is the only way. That is unmitigated B.S. In paddle mode no one can out shift the porsche transmission, either up shift or down shift. In cornering its excellent. The demo ride was with the service manager who had been a factory employee and driver. Amazing ride! I'm glad I was able to buy and drive it. Great experience.
 
What does shifting have to do with the backwards Prius? Prius uses a small electric motor with a small gas motor to give acceptable performance, yeah, dumb. 43mpg, yeah, we had that and better in tons of little cars 20 years ago, without any of the enviro battery issues and battery cost. I guess we have to start somewhere getting electric(ish) cars out there, but the Prius is no engineering prize.
 
Many so called "experts" will opine that shifting is the only way. That is unmitigated B.S. In paddle mode no one can out shift the porsche transmission, either up shift or down shift.
In my mind, it's not a matter of outshifting the PDK, (which is certainly a fabulous piece of engineering. The tiptronic, not so much). Instead, it's that the feel of clutch, stick, throttle and steering wheel make the driving a more interactive and immersive experience. It's not about cutting 0.3 sec off "my time" for whatever. All of my Porsches have been my daily driver in not-quite-heavy traffic and it's about the connection to the car and the road. You may love the paddles. That's great. To me, the clutchless tranny waters down the whole experience.
 
The prius V is not a "little car" . It's very roomy and we take on trips for that very reason. Transmission works very well also. The only " little car" I ever owned were two VW beetles when young. They were remarkable also. I drove one in college in heavy snow country and it handled very well on plowed roads( read rear wheel drive).the prius does very well at 75-80 on the interstate. You can get most any ticket in it you desire. As for the porsche automatic, I grew tired of shifting in traffic a long time ago. It's sort of like propping an airplane which gets troubling also. As far as the " driving experience" I've driven both and prefer the auto. Pushing in and letting out a clutch is for kenworths along with Diesel engines. I went to the prius as two people I know had driven them over 100, 000 miles with no problems, no battery problems other than the small battery which every car has. It was four years old. They are both 2005s. I don't care for the sedan. The prius V is another car entirely.
 
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The Smart car here in America (don't know about Europe) has the worst transmission ever devised by man! OK, maybe a little hyperbole, but it is the worst transmission available in a new car. The Smart car has one mission and one useful trick. It can park in the smallest possible space. So for urban city dwellers, it is useful. Other than that, there is nothing smart about the Smart car.

The Smart would be fun if it came with a manual transmission.
 
Whats with all these Audi haters ?

I never understand the love affair with beamers in this country
 
OK... but what I'm suggesting is that if you change the motive power to a greater efficiency, your big ol' SUV could get 80 mpg and that little light weight car could get 160 mpg.
When you include the losses in generating and transmitting electric power, charging a battery, and the electric motors themselves you'd be hard pressed to do better than about 40% efficiency. Still a lot better than 30% but potentially feasible with a more advanced ICE.
 
In my mind, it's not a matter of outshifting the PDK, (which is certainly a fabulous piece of engineering. The tiptronic, not so much). Instead, it's that the feel of clutch, stick, throttle and steering wheel make the driving a more interactive and immersive experience. It's not about cutting 0.3 sec off "my time" for whatever. All of my Porsches have been my daily driver in not-quite-heavy traffic and it's about the connection to the car and the road. You may love the paddles. That's great. To me, the clutchless tranny waters down the whole experience.

I looked on the Porsche website, neither the Panamera nor the Cayman-S can be spec'd with manual transmission. That can't be right.
 
I looked on the Porsche website, neither the Panamera nor the Cayman-S can be spec'd with manual transmission. That can't be right.

Porsche has gone with the PDK on their highest performance cars. Same is true of Ferrari. The dual clutch transmissions are quicker, so that's what gets put in the high-po cars
 
However, call me a California poof, but I really don't want to buy a new car that isn't at least a hybrid or future proof. I'm fed up with big oil, the taxes, the dirty smelliness, the silliness of an engine that makes 75% heat instead of power or an engine that idles when I'm stuck in traffic.


Unless we build more nuke plants, you're basically switching from oil fired to coal fired. Wind and solar are still in the single digits on electrical power grid, last I checked. So you'd be buying a fossil fueled car, after all.

The production tax credit for wind power equipment production ended Jan 1, 2014 unless I missed the news to extend it again, one year at a time, and manufacturers mostly shuttered plants and consolidated, seeing that their market -- which only worked fiscally, with the credit -- immediately dropping off by huge percentages as the true costs would be what was charged to customers.

Your home of California has done well with wind, being second or third place at my last check, but many folks are surprised to find out Texas eclipses the second place State by triple.

Most utilities in other States offer customers the ability to pay more to buy wind power and feel green, and then the majority of that customer's power still comes from coal. Gotta read the fine print on those offers...

Big oil has its problems, but you have to admit that delivering a product with as much labor as oil to almost every American in the form of gasoline at a price (with road taxes removed) that is often cheaper than bottled water, or "energy" drinks, at the same store, in the fridge, on a per gallon basis, is a pretty impressive of an incredibly efficient delivery system.

Coal also has similar mass delivery system economies of scale. But you're mostly burning coal in an electric car. It isn't clean. If that makes you feel better...
 
Porsche has gone with the PDK on their highest performance cars. Same is true of Ferrari. The dual clutch transmissions are quicker, so that's what gets put in the high-po cars

I already have a car with double-clutch transmission. It's just another automatic transmission. I am car shopping for my wife, looks like the options are honda, acura and bmw and none of them offers the engine I want with a stick-shift.
 
I already have a car with double-clutch transmission. It's just another automatic transmission. I am car shopping for my wife, looks like the options are honda, acura and bmw and none of them offers the engine I want with a stick-shift.
Another reason to drive a stick.:yesnod:

A New Jersey man whose bid to carjack a Porsche failed because he couldn’t drive a stick shift is now headed to prison. http://newyork.cbslocal.com/2013/04...stick-shift-in-carjack-attempt-heads-to-jail/

A bumbling trio of stick-up kids was thwarted in their carjack attempt after they realized that none of them could drive a stick shift. http://www.nydailynews.com/news/nat...ackers-thwarted-stick-shift-article-1.1582250
 
Instead, it's that the feel of clutch, stick, throttle and steering wheel make the driving a more interactive and immersive experience.

Exactly, the feel of perfectly executed shifts makes it worthwhile. I've always had at least one stick shift car around.

Kinda like why taildragger pilots like their planes when trikes are superior in most ways.
 
Exactly, the feel of perfectly executed shifts makes it worthwhile. I've always had at least one stick shift car around.

Kinda like why taildragger pilots like their planes when trikes are superior in most ways.

I can't stand automatics and have gone to great lengths to remove them from cars. I will do so again in the future, no doubt. When the 4L60E goes out in Laurie's Avalanche I might even try to swap it for a 5-speed.
 
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I already have a car with double-clutch transmission. It's just another automatic transmission. I am car shopping for my wife, looks like the options are honda, acura and bmw and none of them offers the engine I want with a stick-shift.


I drive a stick as well, and I enjoy it, but let's face it, they're on their way out. These days, a conventional three pedal manual transmission is only used in low priced cars, or in performance applications where the manufacturer doesn't have an appropriate dual clutch transmission.
 
Unless we build more nuke plants, you're basically switching from oil fired to coal fired. Wind and solar are still in the single digits on electrical power grid, last I checked. So you'd be buying a fossil fueled car, after all.

The production tax credit for wind power equipment production ended Jan 1, 2014 unless I missed the news to extend it again, one year at a time, and manufacturers mostly shuttered plants and consolidated, seeing that their market -- which only worked fiscally, with the credit -- immediately dropping off by huge percentages as the true costs would be what was charged to customers.

Your home of California has done well with wind, being second or third place at my last check, but many folks are surprised to find out Texas eclipses the second place State by triple.

Most utilities in other States offer customers the ability to pay more to buy wind power and feel green, and then the majority of that customer's power still comes from coal. Gotta read the fine print on those offers...

Big oil has its problems, but you have to admit that delivering a product with as much labor as oil to almost every American in the form of gasoline at a price (with road taxes removed) that is often cheaper than bottled water, or "energy" drinks, at the same store, in the fridge, on a per gallon basis, is a pretty impressive of an incredibly efficient delivery system.

Coal also has similar mass delivery system economies of scale. But you're mostly burning coal in an electric car. It isn't clean. If that makes you feel better...


There's been a wholesale switch to natural gas in the last few years, mys supplier was at 60% coal four years ago, and is now at 30% coal, the difference being natural gas replacing coal.
 
When you include the losses in generating and transmitting electric power, charging a battery, and the electric motors themselves you'd be hard pressed to do better than about 40% efficiency. Still a lot better than 30% but potentially feasible with a more advanced ICE.

You pretty much missed my point altogether. I was talking about something like a fuel cell that instead of hydrogen, consumed some sort of petrolium product. I was not talking about a traditional battery powered car.
 
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