Toyota recall, or how floormats can kill

grattonja

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saratoga driver
http://www.comcast.net/articles/finance/20090116/BUSINESS-US-TOYOTA-RECALL/

I needed to rant on this one. I own one of the affected vehicles, a 2008 Tacoma. I really LIKE the floormats, they are thick and comfortable under foot and have two anchors that hold them down.

As a pilot on pilot's forums, we often talk about how much better off we are in the air. I think this recall proves conclusively how dangerous and stupid drivers are. In this case, we have a stuck accellerator pedal causing the crash of a 2009 lexus as the driver for the recall. The occupants had the time to call 911 to seek help, so time was not an issue.

So how is it that, in a car with an automatic transmission, no-one can figure out one of several basic means of getting the car to stop? First, hit the brake! It WILL overpower the drive-train. It has to, to stop the car. You will overheat the brakes and they will fade, but by then hopefully you have gotten to PUT THE DAMN CAR IN NEUTRAL! I mean, really, I have to get new floor mats because people are too stupid to figure out that, if you shove it into "N", it will stop accellerating no matter how much the pedal is stuck down? Then there's SHUT THE FRIGGIN' MOTOR OFF! Again, push on the pedal all day, it ain't goin' nowhere with the ignition off.

I have never understood the stuck pedal problem, particularly on a highway, with lots of room and time to stop the problem and then solve it.

Are we really that stupid in this country now?

Sorry for the rant.
 
http://www.comcast.net/articles/finance/20090116/BUSINESS-US-TOYOTA-RECALL/

I needed to rant on this one. I own one of the affected vehicles, a 2008 Tacoma. I really LIKE the floormats, they are thick and comfortable under foot and have two anchors that hold them down.

As a pilot on pilot's forums, we often talk about how much better off we are in the air. I think this recall proves conclusively how dangerous and stupid drivers are. In this case, we have a stuck accellerator pedal causing the crash of a 2009 lexus as the driver for the recall. The occupants had the time to call 911 to seek help, so time was not an issue.

So how is it that, in a car with an automatic transmission, no-one can figure out one of several basic means of getting the car to stop? First, hit the brake! It WILL overpower the drive-train. It has to, to stop the car.

Try it with the car moving at highway speeds and the pedal at wide open, you might be surprised...

You will overheat the brakes and they will fade, but by then hopefully you have gotten to PUT THE DAMN CAR IN NEUTRAL!

Bingo

I mean, really, I have to get new floor mats because people are too stupid to figure out that, if you shove it into "N", it will stop accellerating no matter how much the pedal is stuck down? Then there's SHUT THE FRIGGIN' MOTOR OFF! Again, push on the pedal all day, it ain't goin' nowhere with the ignition off.

I have never understood the stuck pedal problem, particularly on a highway, with lots of room and time to stop the problem and then solve it.

Are we really that stupid in this country now?

Sorry for the rant.

's OK, that's what we are here for.
 
The funny part is this is something that has plagued the industry for decades. I remember hearing crap like this on cars that are older than I am. I cannot figure out why manufacturers cannot figure out how to make a floor mat that doesn't mess with the accellerator.

Also, if you hit the brakes in a car with an automatic transmission under throttle, chances are you'll disengage the torque converter way before your brakes overheated.

Think of it as a brake stand at speed :)
 
In this case, we have a stuck accellerator pedal causing the crash of a 2009 lexus as the driver for the recall. The occupants had the time to call 911 to seek help, so time was not an issue.

So how is it that, in a car with an automatic transmission, no-one can figure out one of several basic means of getting the car to stop?

They weren't former Audi owners, were they? :mad3:


Trapper John
 
The first set of seatbelts I ever saw in a car were in a '54 Ford that dad let me drive. I installed them (salvaged from a wrecked something at the Sayre, OK airport) because he also bought a set of after-market seat-covers that were slicker than owl snot. During a left turn even at normal speed, I could easily end up in the middle of the seat, straining to hang onto the wheel. The curves in the old highways weren't banked much, and those with R/R tracks (to get a good bounce started) were really interesting for the driver.
 
What's even more odd is that the driver was an off-duty California state trooper who you'd think would have some base level of training.
 
There is nothing the government won't regulate in the name of protecting us from ourselves.
 
No one is taught emergency procedures in automobiles. Most people have never had to make a rapid life-or-death decision, and are susceptible to freeze at the onset of danger. Yes, there are all sorts of things that will stop a car with a depressed accelerator, and most can think of them in their cozy living rooms over a container of their favorite tasty libation. But while their car is careening out of control, not so much. Recurrent training in emergency procedures would help with that, but good luck on that one.
 
My Corvette floormats are fastened down.
 
What's even more odd is that the driver was an off-duty California state trooper who you'd think would have some base level of training.
You would think that if in fact, but I'm not surprised that he doesn't. After all, he drives a Crown Victoria from the 80s for a living. Probably doesn't know how to drive any better than the average person.
 
You would think that if in fact, but I'm not surprised that he doesn't. After all, he drives a Crown Victoria from the 80s for a living. Probably doesn't know how to drive any better than the average person.

I suppose. But my brother is a city officer and I know the level of driving training that he had to go through...so I find it pretty hard to believe that CHP isn't more intense.

That and the fact that cops are used to second guessing dumb asses every day. They normally build up a pretty good reflex that defends them from doing something that would elicit the "why didn't you just...??" questions.
 
Is there something non-standard about a Lexus like that? Like some stupid engine protection feature which prevents you from putting the car in neutral with a throttle setting that high?

Is this one of those push button ignition car things? I've never driven anything like that so I have no idea how they work or how they shut them off.

It wouldn't surprise me if there were some stupid scenario with all the "fancy" features that made it difficult to shut down.
 
Is this one of those push button ignition car things? I've never driven anything like that so I have no idea how they work or how they shut them off.

Yes. You have to hold down the button for 3 seconds to get it to kill the engine if you are in gear and moving, like a forced shutoff for a PC...


Trapper John
 
Is this one of those push button ignition car things? I've never driven anything like that so I have no idea how they work or how they shut them off.

Push and hold the "start" button to shut it off.

Kinda like Windows...
 
Is there something non-standard about a Lexus like that? Like some stupid engine protection feature which prevents you from putting the car in neutral with a throttle setting that high?

Is this one of those push button ignition car things? I've never driven anything like that so I have no idea how they work or how they shut them off.

It wouldn't surprise me if there were some stupid scenario with all the "fancy" features that made it difficult to shut down.

You may be on to something. I drove a car with the push-button start button. Pulling the key out doesn't stop the engine like you'd expect from a car that uses a regular key ignition.

As I didn't want to damage the car, I didn't attempt other measures one might try in an emergency (like pushing the button again, etc). I figured putting it in neutral would get me in control of a runaway throttle.
 
I suppose. But my brother is a city officer and I know the level of driving training that he had to go through...so I find it pretty hard to believe that CHP isn't more intense.

That and the fact that cops are used to second guessing dumb asses every day. They normally build up a pretty good reflex that defends them from doing something that would elicit the "why didn't you just...??" questions.

Police are not taught emergency procedures on how to disengage a stuck accelerator pedal at speed any more than you are :rolleyes:, nor is there a checklist item in the owners manual I'd wager.
 
I had the throttle return spring break on a 1963 Rambler when I was in high school. Needless to say, it started accelerating (even that old gutless 196 ci straight six with 3 on the tree). My immediate response, even then, was to shut it off. Didn't even have to think about it. This recall is stupid.
 
Police are not taught emergency procedures on how to disengage a stuck accelerator pedal at speed any more than you are :rolleyes:, nor is there a checklist item in the owners manual I'd wager.
I agree with you on the check list...but this was covered in Driver's Ed back when I took it...a long time ago.
 
Police are not taught emergency procedures on how to disengage a stuck accelerator pedal at speed any more than you are :rolleyes:, nor is there a checklist item in the owners manual I'd wager.

Agree. I've had extensive conversations with my brother regarding his training (more than I'd ever want to have again :rofl:). That said, they've received more training in how to handle an automobile and are better prepared for thinking on their feet than would be your average telemarketer or <insert most other vocations here>.
 
Driving my soon-to-be-driving-herself daughter to school this morning, we heard the news story about this on the radio.

"Gosh, Dad, that is SO scary that could happen, should we fix our cars?"

"No, dear. Just like I say all the time about airplanes, don't be stupid. Watch closely . . . "

I then floored it, revving the engine to scary sounding levels, closing on the traffic in front of us. Then I shifted to neutral, cut the ignition, applied the brakes and steered the car to a very quiet stop on the shoulder.

She first had that "How did we just not explode?" look on her face, but shortly processed the whole thing and started shaking her head.

"Pretty easy, huh, girl?"

"Yup. Like you said, don't be stupid."

The rest of a drive was a discussion on of the hows and whys.

Gosh I wish she liked airplanes more, she sure would be a nice student to have. Maybe like picking crabs, her tastes will change in a little bit! :smile:
 
Huh.. I've driven old beater trucks where we used the floor mat as a cruise control. :D
 
My Corvette floormats are fastened down.


Trying to compensate for something Ed?

:D


When greedy plaintiffs stop trying to "win the lottery" through personal injury suits then this will stop. Yeah, like that'll happen. :(
 
I know of two aviation related incidents like this.

One was C-177 that the throttle stuck full open in flight. I am not sure what his landing proceedure was but he ended up overrunning a 5000 foot runway and totalling the airplane. Fortunatly no injuries.

The 2nd was a C-182 with a multi-thousand hour commercial pilot at the controls. The 182 had just had a new engine installed and on the 1st start up it immediatly went to full power (incorrect throttle or possibly disconnected throttle). The seat wasn't latched properly and rolled back so he couldn't get on the brakes and the airplane ran down the taxi away about 400 feet and into a hanger with a partially open door. It ended up totalling the 182 and 2 other airplanes. Of course he didn't have any insurance since he wasn't planning on flying it until the engine was ready to fly. He said in hind sight that turning off the ignition would have been a great plan, but it happened so fast he never thought about it.

Brian
 
BTW, wasn't there a made for TV movie in the 90's about some woman with a stuck gas pedal (and ignition stuck in the on position too)?
 
Police are not taught emergency procedures on how to disengage a stuck accelerator pedal at speed any more than you are :rolleyes:, nor is there a checklist item in the owners manual I'd wager.
Not at any department I've worked at.
But they do teach emergency procedures, including total brake failure (interesting drill, to downshift to 1st and shuffle the steering wheel back and forth, using the directional friction to scrub off speed until slow enough to put in neutral and engage the parking brake).

And to answer the next question, you don't engage the parking brake at speed, because if you engage it too much and lock the rear wheels, it's almost impossible to reach under the dash and disengage (as opposed to the handbrake on a manual).
 
(interesting drill, to downshift to 1st and shuffle the steering wheel back and forth, using the directional friction to scrub off speed until slow enough to put in neutral and engage the parking brake).

Or you could just put it in reverse. That will scare the utter **** out of you -- and bring you to a very quick stop. It is also likely that you'll need to replace the rear-end shortly there after. Sigh.
 
Or you could just put it in reverse. That will scare the utter **** out of you -- and bring you to a very quick stop. It is also likely that you'll need to replace the rear-end shortly there after. Sigh.

Mythbusters did part of an episode about putting cars into reverse.
Nothing happened.
 
Police are not taught emergency procedures on how to disengage a stuck accelerator pedal at speed any more than you are :rolleyes:, nor is there a checklist item in the owners manual I'd wager.
In that case, he should have known that on Toyotas/Lexus (and the Nissan/Infinitys I've driven), you have to hold down the power button for quite a while in order to shut down the engine. I know that even though I don't own a Lexus. If that was your car, what's your excuse for not knowing this?

Even if he doesn't know it, how hard is it to shift to neutral or, if that doesn't work, use the shift override switch and force a shift into neutral? Or try the brakes aggressively at least? Why would calling the police help??? It's astonishing to me that anyone, let alone somebody who should have some resemblance of rationality, not figure this out...
 
So one accident, ONE accident, is reason to force a recall of millions of vehicles costing tens of millions of dollars?

Ugh...as someone said, the freaking government will go to any length to satisfy the idiots we call fellow American's in their lemming-like quest to "be safe".
 
So one accident, ONE accident, is reason to force a recall of millions of vehicles costing tens of millions of dollars?

Uh, no...

The U.S. government said it has received reports of 100 related incidents that include 17 crashes and five fatalities involving Toyota vehicles.

Ugh...as someone said, the freaking government will go to any length to satisfy the idiots we call fellow American's in their lemming-like quest to "be safe".

So how is a voluntary recall an example of this?


Trapper John
 
Mythbusters did part of an episode about putting cars into reverse.
Nothing happened.

Most but not all automatics won't drop into reverse until forward motion is mostly stopped.
 
Try it with the car moving at highway speeds and the pedal at wide open, you might be surprised...

I've never driven a car that had more power than the brakes could handle, at least on the first attempt. Of course with a FWD car standing on the brakes while the engine is putting out considerable power is likely to lock the rear wheels but even that won't happen with ABS.

Baring a malfunction or fade, brakes can usually create enough force to decel a car at .8 to 1 g. Few if any street cars have enough power to accelerate that well above 10-15 mph and usually any car with that kind of power will have more powerful brakes.
 
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