Touch and Gos

JHW said:
A10's have (or at least had) some time consuming wing inspections predicated on number of landings.
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The issue with the A-10 and that rule would have been no place to put the IP -- only single-seat "fighter" the USAF was flying then without a 2-seat trainer version.
 
wabower said:
Did they actually touch down? Many of them have changed to low approaches to reduce brake and tire cost.
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Since we were booted off the base last summer, I havn't been back but at that time it was definitely a T&G. The blue smoke may a nice indication of the touchdown spot.:)

Cheers
 
Ron Levy said:
When I was in the Air Guard a long time ago, T&G's were prohibited by TAC unless an IP was in the aircraft. Not sure if that was for safety or tire cost, nor how that worked for the A-10's. No doubt MAC and SAC had different rules, too.
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The USN has suggestions. Back in the day, TAC had rules treated as "recommendations" and MAC and SAC had RULES.

Now that it is ACC and AMC, I would guess its RULES for everybody.

Cheers
 
Republic-FRG and Brookhaven-HWV were really rocking & rolling this morning...280@13G23. A lil air work and a half dozen landings (full stop) in that and I was ready to call it a day:D.

Not easy doing steep turns in moderate turbulence ( I was plus & minus 200 ft).

At least I had the Brookhaven pattern all to my self:lol:
 
X3 Skier said:
We have a Reserve Airlft Wing at WPAFB. Used to have C-5's and now C-17's. When the Reserve pilots are in for a weekend, it was wild sharing the airfield with them doing seemingly endless T&G on the parallel runway. Talk about wake turbulence awareness! :hairraise:

Cheers
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When I was at WPAFB from 94 through 97 (it was probably in 1997)we had a great time watching the stealth fighters do what then I thought were touch and goes but I would bet they were just low approaches.
 
douglas393 said:
When I was at WPAFB from 94 through 97 (it was probably in 1997)we had a great time watching the stealth fighters do what then I thought were touch and goes but I would bet they were just low approaches.
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The F-117's were based at Holloman until they were retired so they must have been transients.

We did have regular visits from the F-16 Guard unit at Springfield until they were replaced by drones. They sortied out of WPAFB whenever SGF was under repair.

Cheers
 
I was also a product of T&Gs during primary training and the rush job of hurry up and reconfigure for takeoff!

One day this almost got me in a lot of trouble! Early student solo flight (yes I've told this story before)....

Touched and forgot to retract the flaps! Full power, liftoff and the nose pitched way up. I was scared but didn't panic. I instinctively remembered what my CFI said, about the risk of stalling due to a rapid flap retraction at low speed, so I pushed the nose over and gradually reduced flaps as my airspeed picked up.

I do T&Gs from time to time now and have done them for years, however....Whether you do them with your CFI or not, I wouldn't recommend that you do them during your early solo flights. Just do full stop/taxi back. Believe me, when you're all alone for those first few flights, it's easy to forget something critical....especially when you feel rushed! Even something you've done dozens of times:rolleyes2:

How did I remember carb heat & trim, yet forget flaps? Rushing!
 
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Ron Levy said:
I would also like to point out that the vast majority of landing accidents involve loss of control during rollout. T&G's don't teach flying the plane all the way to a stop. I sometimes think that if we eliminated T&G's from primary training, those types of accidents would drop dramatically.
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I make sure my students take us to a full stop at least once on each lesson...sometimes more. They do it on every cross-country stop. None have had a problem with it that I recall.
 
When the 747 first came out I was in Jr High School in Fargo. Northwest Airlines would run a 747 up from Mpls with a group of pilots on board, then do touch & goes for hours on end, rotating pilots through the process. Spent many hour photographing those majestic new birds as they did so.
 
LDJones said:
When the 747 first came out I was in Jr High School in Fargo. Northwest Airlines would run a 747 up from Mpls with a group of pilots on board, then do touch & goes for hours on end, rotating pilots through the process. Spent many hour photographing those majestic new birds as they did so.
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I have a cockpit DVD of an Oasis 747 doing them, rotating pilots through the process. Love that DVD:yes:

The instructor reconfigures on every touchdown and the PF is given a reminder on final... "no reverse"
 
redtail said:
I was also a product of T&Gs during primary training and the rush job of hurry up and reconfigure for takeoff!

How did I remember carb heat & trim, yet forget flaps? Rushing!
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One thing nice about the Piper Warrior etc is that it is hard to miss that Johnson Bar sticking up. :D

Cheers
 
bbchien said:
Aviatrix, go to youre neaby over built 6000 foot runway with no tower, and get that puppy into the flare and ask the instructor to add power so you can fly in ground effect for a whole minute, one foot off the ground. This is the single best instructor tool there is.

Each landing you get about 10 seconds in flare. VERY INEFFICIENT way of mastering that phase of flight. Get 60 seconds each time, instead. That's AS GOOD as 6 touch and goes.

There is no hurrying this, and there is no substitute for TIME SPENT MANAGING this phase of immediate pre-landing flight. Better yet if you are ready, to spend time with only the upwind wheel on the runway, a whole minute at a time.
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Once again, Dr. Bruce nails it. The famous quote, "Practice makes perfect," isn't really correct. As. Dr. Bruce points out, the proper saying is "PERFECT practice makes perfect," and the way to get that in flying is to seek the best training regime for each student.
 
I talk out loud and verbalize everything i'm doing so the instructor can interact with me to address anything that needs addressing... I would find it more of a distraction if we did full stops unless there was something inherently unsafe about the landing in question.
 
Yabut the instructor might enjoy a little peace and quiet.
supernovae said:
I talk out loud and verbalize everything i'm doing so the instructor can interact with me to address anything that needs addressing... I would find it more of a distraction if we did full stops unless there was something inherently unsafe about the landing in question.
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I agree with Dr. Bruce's suggestion about flying down the runway. You will get a better feel with one trip than with several touch-n-goes.
 
Aviatrix, I don't know what kind of physical shape you're in, but assuming you don't usually get tired, say, driving, you shouldn't worry that a flight lesson like the one you describe leaves you feeling drained. Perfectly normal. Thinking hard while learning new hand/foot stuff... it taxes the whole body. Adrenaline leaves you feeling tired, too, sometimes.
Don't be discouraged if you feel a little overwhelmed, but don't kill yourself trying to keep the pace set by the instructor. The comments above about quality vs quantity are spot-on; if you need a moment, take a moment. If you want to try slow flight in ground effect vs doing as many t&gs as possible in x minutes, ask the CFI to let you try that.
There's a point where a student just isn't going to benefit from the training, when they feel exhausted and stressed out. It's gotta feel like fun, even when it's challenging.
Speaking of fun, I'm glad you are OK with the 152... I started in a 150, and grew very fond of it. Be leery of anyone trying to talk you into something faster during your training...I made that mistake, convinced by the instructor that it would save me time and money somehow, but looking back, he probably just wanted to be more comfortable, and bring in more money for the school. Obviously, if you have access to a 172 or something, you should get familiar with it if you want to take more than 1 passenger on longer trips, but for now, I'd say a 152 will be just fine. It's not like you can't learn what you need to learn in a 172 (it's also a good trainer), it's just that a 152 will need a little more work and concentration to fly gracefully, and that's a good thing. The fact that you'll pay less for this is icing on the cake.
 
supernovae said:
I don't pay him for peace and quiet :D
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And I'd be worried about a CFI that didn't want to know what you're thinking. I had 5 instructors during my ASEL training, and they all reminded me to think aloud. It's a good habit even when you are solo.
 
You're right, I think it's also just been the hardest part thus far of my training for me. I think also it was a bit early but I'm glad we did it so I start to understand landings a bit more. I got to feel what it's like to float and also flare too much and take back off, etc. And because of the weather there was no other training option for that day because of the haze.
The next day I went back up and ended up being fine with most of the radio work myself which felt good to understand that bit. At least everything doesn't like like gibberish anymore. I think being up for that hour and constantly hearing them helped, plus my studying that night.
My other instructor was insistent on the 172 but I think that's mainly because she was trained in it and I believe being a product of ATP isn't comfortable in any other plane but my new one she's definitely helpful with suggestions on how to save money in training. Actually, the T&Gs were in a 172 because both 152s were down but I got it at the 152 price which was nice of them but I've booked the rest of my lessons so far in the 152.

rottydaddy said:
Aviatrix, I don't know what kind of physical shape you're in, but assuming you don't usually get tired, say, driving, you shouldn't worry that a flight lesson like the one you describe leaves you feeling drained. Perfectly normal. Thinking hard while learning new hand/foot stuff... it taxes the whole body. Adrenaline leaves you feeling tired, too, sometimes.
Don't be discouraged if you feel a little overwhelmed, but don't kill yourself trying to keep the pace set by the instructor. The comments above about quality vs quantity are spot-on; if you need a moment, take a moment. If you want to try slow flight in ground effect vs doing as many t&gs as possible in x minutes, ask the CFI to let you try that.
There's a point where a student just isn't going to benefit from the training, when they feel exhausted and stressed out. It's gotta feel like fun, even when it's challenging.
Speaking of fun, I'm glad you are OK with the 152... I started in a 150, and grew very fond of it. Be leery of anyone trying to talk you into something faster during your training...I made that mistake, convinced by the instructor that it would save me time and money somehow, but looking back, he probably just wanted to be more comfortable, and bring in more money for the school. Obviously, if you have access to a 172 or something, you should get familiar with it if you want to take more than 1 passenger on longer trips, but for now, I'd say a 152 will be just fine. It's not like you can't learn what you need to learn in a 172 (it's also a good trainer), it's just that a 152 will need a little more work and concentration to fly gracefully, and that's a good thing. The fact that you'll pay less for this is icing on the cake.
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One potential reason to insist on a 172 over a 152 is the max gross weight. Unless both adults are fairly small, it's hard to stay safe in a 152 with two adults and full fuel. And less than full fuel in a 152 means for a pretty short experience.

I can fly solo or with a kid in a 152, but I can't do it with an instructor unless that instructor is under 120 lb.
 
MAKG1 said:
One potential reason to insist on a 172 over a 152 is the max gross weight. Unless both adults are fairly small, it's hard to stay safe in a 152 with two adults and full fuel. And less than full fuel in a 152 means for a pretty short experience.

I can fly solo or with a kid in a 152, but I can't do it with an instructor unless that instructor is under 120 lb.
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The club recently added a 152 to the fleet and issued a SOP to limit fuel when using for traing. Enough for an hour of instruction and reserve IIRC.

Cheers
 
So you can't have a lesson longer than an hour?

That sucks.

There are instances where that might be called for for other reasons (fatigue, airsickness), but it's a little short otherwise.
 
MAKG1 said:
One potential reason to insist on a 172 over a 152 is the max gross weight. Unless both adults are fairly small, it's hard to stay safe in a 152 with two adults and full fuel. And less than full fuel in a 152 means for a pretty short experience.
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My instructor and I are both thin females so when we did the weight and balance with full fuel we're fine. I haven't tried to do weight and balance if my boyfriend and I were to go up together but he's in good shape as well.
 
Aviatrix - Ignore the blathering buffoons on here (including me) and just go grind out the hours with your CFI. You will do fine.

The purpose of having a CFI is to keep you from rolling the airplane into a ball while you develop muscle memory and eye-hand coordination by actually flying the airplane - if a bit wobbly at the start. And that, basically, is it.

The reality is that you teach yourself to fly. :D

Think of it this way:
Would he be able to teach a child to ride a bicycle by sitting in the living room and describing how to balance, and pedal, and steer simultaneously - and then send the child out to just do it while he makes himself coffee?
Nope, of course not.
So, how can he "teach" you how to do something that is 20 or 30 times more complicated than riding a bicycle by talking to you?

Yes, he can tell you how to dial up the transponder (though you can read about that) and he can help you untangle the rapid fire gibberish that controllers throw at you (though you can practice that with the internet) - but his real use is to put a steadying hand/foot on the controls and say, "point the nose this way"

This is the same as you running next to a child and keeping the bicycle from toppling over as the child struggles stay balanced while pedaling and steering. It only takes a few trips down the driveway before the kid says, in annoyance, "I can do it myself." and goes pedaling down the block - if wobbling a bit yet.

So, read the blather on here, but don't take it for gospel - just keep pedaling and soon YOU will be the CFI.
 
MAKG1 said:
So you can't have a lesson longer than an hour?

That sucks.

There are instances where that might be called for for other reasons (fatigue, airsickness), but it's a little short otherwise.
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I just looked it up and the "Std" is 16 Gals. The SOP states that's enough for an "hourish" of instruction with an hour reserve. If you can meet the MTOGW, fill it up.

There are some "BIG" instructors and students (and also some small ones):D

Cheers
 
X3 Skier said:
I just looked it up and the "Std" is 16 Gals. The SOP states that's enough for an "hourish" of instruction with an hour reserve. If you can meet the MTOGW, fill it up.

There are some "BIG" instructors and students (and also some small ones):D

Cheers
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In most 150s that's two hours of fuel plus generous reserves.
 
JHW said:
a good description of why T&G's are not a great teaching tool. You might consider asking your instructor for a lesson wherein you do full stop landings, and use the taxi back time to debrief what just happened and get ready for the next takeoff.

I've never done a T&G as a landing exercise and never intend to.
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Ateaist said:
But if I do twelve touch 'n gos for every four full stop landings, haven't I then spent three times more time controlling the airplane in the proper landing configuration?
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Maybe I missed it but I haven't seen anyone mention "stop and goes". Far better (IMO) than either touch & goes, or land and taxi back. A nice compromise between the two.

If the pattern isn't too busy and the runway is over 3000' or so, it shouldn't be a problem in a moderately loaded 150/152.

I was out playing and did 1/2 dozen of 'em today in fact...at our local towered airport...KCGI
Not in a 152 though. :)
 
I was SOOOO tempted to see how many stop'n'goes I could do in a row at KMER on Tuesday. That's 12000 feet of lightly used runway.
 
LDJones said:
In most 150s that's two hours of fuel plus generous reserves.
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It's a great little plane in which to train, and you can buy one for the price of the engine!
 
Aviatrix said:
Actually, the T&Gs were in a 172 because both 152s were down but I got it at the 152 price which was nice of them but I've booked the rest of my lessons so far in the 152.
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I see... sounds like my situation during training; that school had the one 150 (later a 152), and two 172s, but availability was a problem sometimes. I wouldn't necessarily recommend jumping back and forth, but if you can do it comfortably, it does expand your options. But it's wise to settle on one or the other for your check ride, and stick with that for the few flights prepping for the check ride. I used to just think of the extra $$ for a lesson in the 172 as a premium paid to get that lesson done that week. But the 150 was my first choice- did a lot of post-solo flying in it, including my first solo XC. I did my check ride in the 172, but if I remember right, that was because the 150 got pulled off the line (leaseback, and the owner changed his mind).

You'll probably find the 152 to be available more often, because most trainees turn their back on it once they try the 172. When I joined a club later that had a 172 and a 152, I think I and the one primary student in the club were the only ones who ever booked the 152. :D
 
If you want to see a real deer in the headlights look, ask a t&g aficionado what happens if they get a split flap while retracting flaps on the "go". The answer is, you probably die. You can't get split flaps on a Cherokee but some types you can.

A coworkers husband bought it in his comanche when waited to drop flaps on very shot final and one stuck. I don't make configuration changes close to the ground at all, much less on the takeoff roll.
 
JHW said:
If you want to see a real deer in the headlights look, ask a t&g aficionado what happens if they get a split flap while retracting flaps on the "go". The answer is, you probably die. You can't get split flaps on a Cherokee but some types you can.

A coworkers husband bought it in his comanche when waited to drop flaps on very shot final and one stuck. I don't make configuration changes close to the ground at all, much less on the takeoff roll.
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And that's a hey no kiddin.....
 
JHW said:
If you want to see a real deer in the headlights look, ask a t&g aficionado what happens if they get a split flap while retracting flaps on the "go". The answer is, you probably die.
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Isn't that why you confirm "flaps up left - flaps up right" before you push the throttle forward? :dunno:
 
Sure, but that's not something every instructor teaches unfortunately. I never looked at the flaps on T&G until the day we took off in a 172 with 30deg still down because the flap lever had malfunctioned. Had to fly a whole pattern about 300AGL which definitely taught me a lesson....
 
"Why are the flaps still down?"

"Oh, man, I always raise the flaps and confirm before power-up"

"Then what happened this time?"

"Dunno. Guess I forgot."

"So noted."

Ateaist said:
Isn't that why you confirm "flaps up left - flaps up right" before you push the throttle forward? :dunno:
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wabower said:
"Why are the flaps still down?"

"Oh, man, I always raise the flaps and confirm before power-up"

"Then what happened this time?"

"Dunno. Guess I forgot."

"So noted."
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Or even if he does check, why is the driver looking left and right at high speed instead of where he is going, and how much ground is covered during all this looking around?
 
JHW said:
If you want to see a real deer in the headlights look, ask a t&g aficionado what happens if they get a split flap while retracting flaps on the "go". The answer is, you probably die. You can't get split flaps on a Cherokee but some types you can.

A coworkers husband bought it in his comanche when waited to drop flaps on very shot final and one stuck. I don't make configuration changes close to the ground at all, much less on the takeoff roll.
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So you adapt to the equipment you're flying. There are things I won't do in a high performance twin that we do regularly in a 150.

I struggle with "one size fits all" rules.
 
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