Touch and Go's no go with instructor

marcoseddi said:
Well I may stay at the school that has 7k or go to the club better prices nicer planes and its much short 3k runway and this instructor wont do touch and goes is that normal or waste, wast of time?
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Here's my experience in the difference between touch and go's and full stop taxi backs. If the airport is busy, full stop taxi backs will slow you down because you will wait for traffic. On average, where I fly out of- a fairly busy class c, on a normal day I can get in about 4-5 landings per hobb hour. Back in training when I was allowed to do touch and go's with my instructor on board, on the same kind of day that number was closer to 7-9. So it does matter on busy days. However, just the other day I went out to practice landings and the airport was not busy and I got 7 landings in 1.2 on the Hobbs doing full stop taxi backs the whole time. Hope this gives you a sense of the difference.
 
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Dave Krall CFII said:
RG or Fixed Gear, is a T&G landing more damaging than one to a full stop to the gear? Shouldn't be for the landing gear.
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Unless the pilot flying grabs the gear handle instead of the flaps when reconfiguring -- that's not a problem in fixed gear aircraft, but it happens from time to time in RG's, and that's a very expensive mistake (typically over $30K for a new engine and new c/s prop, with insurance covering only the prorated portion of the remaining TBO on the engine and prop). Hence, the not uncommon prohibition by flight schools and FBO's on T&G's in their retractables.
 
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Silvaire said:
With tricycle gear I think T&G's are beneficial because you are getting much more pattern and approach work in. There's just no good reason to coast down to a stop after you made the landing.
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If the airplane would simply "coast down to a stop after you made the landing" then you'd be right. Unfortunately, the accident stats tell us the most common accident we have in light plane flying is loss of control after touchdown before coming to a stop, and T&G's a) don't exercise those skills, and b) teach new pilots that part isn't important (or we'd practice it more). And the statistics tell us that problem is not limited to tailwheel planes.
 
If you have intersecting runways or measure from a taxiway intersection just set a limit for take off distance. Even if you come in fast you should still be stopped within 2000 +/- which give you plenty of room to take off.
 
RotorAndWing said:
Lots of things I never realized "we're doing wrong" till Internet boards came into existence.
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Q: If you do something, and there's no one on the Internet to challenge it, are you still wrong?

A: If you have a wife, you are! :D
 
The mistake in logic is thinking that more circuits equates to better student performance than fewer circuits with better teaching opportunities. We all agree that the cockpit is a horrible place to teach, then we ***** if somebody suggests we take away the pressures of flying so the student can absorb what's happening without all the distractions necessary to fly and try to listen at the same time.

Look at any part 142 training manual and you'll see the abbreviated training checklist page (SFI's have the yellow header stripe) that helps ingrain the check-list usage that DPE's continue to ***** about as a shortcoming of most PPL applicants.

Silvaire said:
I learned to fly in a J3 and I think that in any conventional geared airplane a T&G is cheating because the "trouble" begins when the rudder stops working and the tailwheel has to take over. Of course, in a J3 you can do stop and goes on just about any runway and in fact, by the time you reach up there to push in the carb heat you're pretty darn near stopped anyway.

With tricycle gear I think T&G's are beneficial because you are getting much more pattern and approach work in. There's just no good reason to coast down to a stop after you made the landing.

With complex, retracts and twins it depends on the situation but that's not basic training stuff.
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Ron Levy said:
If the airplane would simply "coast down to a stop after you made the landing" then you'd be right. Unfortunately, the accident stats tell us the most common accident we have in light plane flying is loss of control after touchdown before coming to a stop, and T&G's a) don't exercise those skills, and b) teach new pilots that part isn't important (or we'd practice it more). And the statistics tell us that problem is not limited to tailwheel planes.
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I know that some of those common accidents occurred when the pilot deliberately turned off the runway and lost control during the turn (that one's probably mostly taildragger oriented).

Unless I need to log a "full stop" for currency, when I practice landings in a taildragger I usually do a "slow and go" (down to taxiing speed) to save the brakes. The skill of keeping a taildragger pointed down the runway at very low speed isn't one that I feel needs to be practiced on every landing but the transition from touchdown to slow taxi speed can indeed be challenging.
 
wabower said:
The mistake in logic is thinking that more circuits equates to better student performance than fewer circuits with better teaching opportunities. We all agree that the cockpit is a horrible place to teach, then we ***** if somebody suggests we take away the pressures of flying so the student can absorb what's happening without all the distractions necessary to fly and try to listen at the same time.
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That make so much sense I don't know why any CFI would teach T&G landings unless it was to prepare the student for performing them on their own. I can certainly remember getting very little in the way of useful instruction during the many T&Gs I flew with a CFI sitting beside me. Sometimes it seemed that all I was doing was practicing the same mistakes repeatedly until I accidentally got it right.
 
I didn't mind T&G's until I bought a complex/hp aircraft. Now I don't like doing them, there is too much re-configuration to do and more to concentrate on.
 
Exactly. I probably wouldn't do T&G's as much in a complex. Every situation is different. As Ron said, it's not a cut-and-dried issue. Having said that, all of my whopping 15 hours have been in a 172 so far, so I guess I can't speak accurately to what I would do in a complex. In fact, my first lesson was the first time I'd sat in anything smaller than a regional airliner. But I digress...

As far as I'm concerned, every situation is different. Although I don't see a good reason for a CFI to avoid teaching them altogether.
 
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Ron Levy said:
Unless the pilot flying grabs the gear handle instead of the flaps when reconfiguring -- that's not a problem in fixed gear aircraft, but it happens from time to time in RG's, and that's a very expensive mistake (typically over $30K for a new engine and new c/s prop, with insurance covering only the prorated portion of the remaining TBO on the engine and prop). Hence, the not uncommon prohibition by flight schools and FBO's on T&G's in their retractables.
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All kinds of undesirable things happen when the pilot doesn't follow an abbreviated checklist, and then takes improper action.
 
Dave Krall CFII said:
All kinds of undesirable things happen when the pilot doesn't follow an abbreviated checklist, and then takes improper action.
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If you cannot reconfig a plane you are flying to perform a T&G, then you should not be flying it in the first place.. :nonod::no:
 
redtail said:
Yep, did that on an early student solo:yikes:.
I was doing touch & go's and forgot to retract the flaps! Scared the hell out of me when the nose pitched waayyy up.

Fortunately, I remembered what I was taught, pushed the nose over to pick up speed and gradually reduced flaps. That was an eye opener and after that experience, I never ever had a problem doing touch & go's again:D
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Sometimes you have to scare yourself before you get it completely right :D
 
Dave Krall CFII said:
All kinds of undesirable things happen when the pilot doesn't follow an abbreviated checklist, and then takes improper action.
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The issue isn't the checklist, it's maintaining control of the fast-moving airplane while selecting the correct handle to retract the flaps without grabbing the gear by mistake. And yes, it happens -- I dug out the accident reports on that a couple of years ago, including one bizarre case that ended with a fatality. To the thinking of several flight training providers I know (including the one where a multiengine trainee with instructor aboard did it in a twin -- two props and two engines trashed), the gain is not worth the pain. The fact that insurance covered most of it doesn't help if it takes three weeks to get a rare prop built up by Hartzell.
 
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Ron Levy said:
The issue isn't the checklist, it's maintaining control of the fast-moving airplane while selecting the correct handle to retract the flaps without grabbing the gear by mistake. And yes, it happens -- I dug out the accident reports on that a couple of years ago, including one bizarre case that ended with a fatality. To the thinking of several flight training providers I know, the gain is not worth the pain.
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Oh Geez..... One plane lands at 60 and the complex one lands at maybe 80..:dunno::dunno:.. if 20 kts gets you behind the plane you have NO business flying it..:no:
 
N801BH said:
Oh Geez..... One plane lands at 60 and the complex one lands at maybe 80..:dunno::dunno:.. if 20 kts gets you behind the plane you have NO business flying it..:no:
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Unfortunately, many pilots are not as sharp as you, especially during initial training and checking out in new types, which is when most T&G's are done. And the statistics to back that position do exist, along with my observations during 40 years as a CFI. Only way I do T&G's with someone new to the plane is if I do the reconfiguration while they fly the plane with their eyes outside and hands on stick/yoke and throttles. You want to do different, be my guest, but there are a lot of flight schools which agree with me based on their own bad experiences.
 
Ron Levy said:
Unfortunately, many pilots are not as sharp as you, especially during initial training and checking out in new types, which is when most T&G's are done. And the statistics to back that position do exist, along with my observations during 40 years as a CFI. Only way I do T&G's with someone new to the plane is if I do the reconfiguration while they fly the plane with their eyes outside and hands on stick/yoke and throttles. You want to do different, be my guest, but there are a lot of flight schools which agree with me based on their own bad experiences.
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I am not sharp at all... In fact I am dumper then a fence post.. But. if I am doing a T&G, I know it while on final and make sure I know the difference between the FLAP handle and the GEAR handle....
 
Ron Levy said:
The issue isn't the checklist, it's maintaining control of the fast-moving airplane while selecting the correct handle to retract the flaps without grabbing the gear by mistake....
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I've only flown a couple retractables, but none of them had gear and flap levers that were even close to the same. Are there planes where they are easily confused?
The CFI who did my insurance checkout on the first retract i flew made of point of yelling at me to use only one finger to raise the flaps, presumably to prevent this (gear lever was pull out, then up - hard to do with one finger).
 
I did about 300 T n Go's to get my ppl, 10 years ago. As I recall.

Now that I have a HP/Complex I try to do 3-5 each month if for no other reason than because it is complex.

I think it would be pretty ugly to have to do a go around with HP/Complex and not be able to manage it nicely.
 
\__[Ô]__/;1084775 said:
I've only flown a couple retractables, but none of them had gear and flap levers that were even close to the same. Are there planes where they are easily confused?
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The accident record says it happens.
 
Ron Levy said:
The accident record says it happens.
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I'm certainly not disputing the accident records. I'm just trying to better understand how it's happening so i can make more informed decisions on flying/teaching in complex planes. If there are planes where these levers are easily confused and/or without a safety detent on the gear, that suggests one thing.

If those accidents are happening in planes where those levers are quite distinct (which has been the case in all the complex planes i've flown so far), that may point to a different cause.
 
I've watched military 747s do T&Gs at LNK. There must be some crazy choreography going on in that cockpit. I've done T&Gs in transport category jets, I know that we thoroughly briefed who was going to do what and when they were going to do it. I've also done T&Gs with students, but only when it made sense to do so. IMHO, it always makes more sense to do stop and goes or taxi back. I seems to me that the opportunity to screw up the required configuration changes is equal to or greater than what ever benefit that the "...and go" brings to the party. Now if you happen to be training in one of the classic SEL aircraft without flaps then knock yourself out. Not too many of those are used for primary training anymore.
 
N801BH said:
If you cannot reconfig a plane you are flying to perform a T&G, then you should not be flying it in the first place.. :nonod::no:
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If I'm not comfortable stitching up my dogs then I shouldn't take them wild boar hunting. Does that mean I should shoot one of them so I can practice sewing him back together ?
 
JHW said:
If I'm not comfortable stitching up my dogs then I shouldn't take them wild boar hunting. Does that mean I should shoot one of them so I can practice sewing him back together ?
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Nope, don't shoot him, practice your stitching on a piece of light leather.
 
Lol. Hay guyz, touch and goes are dangerous. :facepalm:

If it weren't for t&gs, I would probably still be trying to learn how to land. How the hell did anyone ever learn to fly without them?

Also, would be interested to see how many of you that pee your pants over t&gs also believe that slips with full flaps in a Cessna are prohibited.
 
Tony_Scarpelli said:
Now that I have a HP/Complex I try to do 3-5 each month if for no other reason than because it is complex.

I think it would be pretty ugly to have to do a go around with HP/Complex and not be able to manage it nicely.
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I notice that people equate T&Gs to go-arounds. I guess I don't and I'm wondering about the equivalence.

My thinking is that once my wheels touch, I'm staying on the ground 'no matter what'. OTOH, I need to be prepared to abort the landing all the way up to the point of touchdown. And I need to be able to do it in all landing configs and somewhat mindlessly because in all likelihood, I'll be distracted. What do others think?

While I don't do T&Gs any longer, I know I need to practice go arounds more often than I do. Recenly there was a good article in one of the mags making a case for more go around practice and I agree.
 
N801BH said:
I bet............ There are stupid pilots out there......

Accident reports confirm that...:yes::D
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I'll own up to that.

While there are probably stupid people out there with pilot licenses, I think all/most of us can be stupid on a situational basis. That's when you need to have your ducks lined up and risks mitigated. For example, a little inadvertent dehydration combined with a sick passenger can get you stupid in a hurry. That's when people do stupid stuff like mixing up flaps and gear.
 
I guess you're right. Lack of T&G's must be the reason I took over 300 hours to solo.

SkyHog said:
Lol. Hay guyz, touch and goes are dangerous. :facepalm:

If it weren't for t&gs, I would probably still be trying to learn how to land. How the hell did anyone ever learn to fly without them?

Also, would be interested to see how many of you that pee your pants over t&gs also believe that slips with full flaps in a Cessna are prohibited.
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JHW said:
I guess you're right. Lack of T&G's must be the reason I took over 300 hours to solo.
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I don't remember the number, but it took me north of 50 to solo, and the last 10 or 20 hours was just practicing landings. T&Gs saved me a bunch of time and money.
 
How do you know? Could better instruction have achieved an even better result without them?
SkyHog said:
I don't remember the number, but it took me north of 50 to solo, and the last 10 or 20 hours was just practicing landings. T&Gs saved me a bunch of time and money.
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wabower said:
How do you know? Could better instruction have achieved an even better result without them?
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Not likely. Given average or above CFI skills, there is no, and never will be any substitution, for proprioceptive repetition by the Neophlyte in varying environmental conditions.

This was partially proven in the WWII era, when battle conditions prompted cuts in flight training time in an effort to get more pilots airborne in ever shortening time frames, with increasingly fatal results, returning the time frame to previous standards.
 
thats my worry i feel that i want to keep practicing and rather get in double the amount of landings to ensure, however maybe you are right a better instructor may not need you to do double the amounts of landings.
 
\__[Ô]__/;1084834 said:
I'm certainly not disputing the accident records. I'm just trying to better understand how it's happening so i can make more informed decisions on flying/teaching in complex planes. If there are planes where these levers are easily confused and/or without a safety detent on the gear, that suggests one thing.

If those accidents are happening in planes where those levers are quite distinct (which has been the case in all the complex planes i've flown so far), that may point to a different cause.
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Exactly -- haste, which as we all know makes waste.
 
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